I love the site Steamcharts.com. It’s a great place to see what people are actually playing. It uses the Steam stats as its basis so it’s a reasonably fair comparison for most new games.
Here are some fantasy strategy games:
Age of Wonders 3: King of the world!
FE:LH Hanging in there after all these years
Warlock II
Endless Legend
Civilization V: KING OF THE WORLD!
Sins of a Solar Empire: Yea, it’s awesome!
and lastly…GalCiv II, most copies sold prior to Steam (so most players aren’t counted) and it’s 8 years old but still going strong!
I suspect you're right, though I wasn't into RTS when I first started gaming decades ago. I used to belong to an online squadron where we would reenact WWII battles with other squads. Was quite the blast! But with ailing parents and other life issues rearing their ugly heads I've had to back out of that a couple of years ago just because I don't have the time any more... I hope to one day again but not in the foreseeable future.
The most widely played strategy game on Steam is Civilization V (http://steamcharts.com/). The first RTS doesn't even show up until 23rd place.
I like RTS's. I've helped design RTS's. We have a new IP, large-scale RTS in development. But making them has nothing to do with being a "serious" developer.
RTS's are a lot harder to make technically than turn-based games but they are far easier to design. Starcraft, for instance, is a far simpler game than say AOW or Elemental.
The reason you haven't seen RTS's recently is because we've been trapped with limited hardware specs until recently. The only reason you haven't seen a Sins of a Solar Empire:New Expansion is that we literally can't fit another megabyte of "stuff" in. (In an RTS, EVERYthing in the world has to be in memory because it's real-time, in a turn based game I can take assets out of memory and place them back in later if I need to).
Also, from a business point, in the digital age, staying power matters more than anything.
There are forums (rpgcodex being the epitome of this) where clueless gamers talk about how crappy this game or that game is and how this game or that should have the features of some game they want not realizing that they are totally out of touch with what people actually want to play.
Hence, I'd rather make a game that *I* like that also will sell well than to cater to some cynical hard core group.
More recent stats from Steamcharts:
Still King:
Still going strong after all this time:
But if you look at the stats on games that some people we should "be more like" you consistently find that they just don't have the staying power of say Legendary Heroes.
It's a fine balance between providing a lot of replayability in the base game itself / providing free, meaningful updates / supporting the modding community.
Amen! And you obviously have a working formula as you've been around for a few years and look to be hanging around for a bit longer. At least I hope so and that's why I support you guys the way I do!
@Uberlicker
Notice how this statement, when you really examine it and apply critical thinking, is actually nothing like what you are saying at all. In fact, NOWHERE is there a comparison of how fun/enjoyable/interesting/superior/awesome/etc. an RTS vs. Turn based comment is made. Not even remotely.
Your logical progression fails right here. That is the end of the discussion.
@frogboy
Hey frogboy, thanks for the response. In your first response we are pretty much in agreement. Your response does support the core point that there is a lack of good modern RTS in the market today. Taking on harder projects legitimizes you as a serious developer in the eyes of many kinds of gamers.
Oh I've seen them. I do and have done for the past 6 years my own hands on version of data mining as many websites like these as I can for interesting Ideas that mesh well with my existing set. The idea that crops up quite frequently is the one I first posted in this thread. Naturally the details on precisely HOW to do this is far more relevant then just a simple comparison of existing games. Right now as I type my drafting table is swimming in highly detailed notes. The goal is to let conceptual feature creep occur massively and out of control while I just simulate the game in my mind, then find ways to simplify the process before actually allocating any resource other then my personal time. I just do this at work constantly to keep the mind stimulated, but really it's an obsession 6 years down the road from my navy days. Most MMORTS games take the word MMO and add RTS. That doesn't work for very long, staying power is the main issue. It takes a lot of research to find another way, for me it took about 3 years(starting from knowing 0 about game design).
These cynical groups are quite the norm(wasn't stardock catering to this target group for sins of a solar empire? lol).
Also, I would consider market data for video games to be inaccurate and largely to blame for the lack of satisfaction gamers are receiving nowadays. The "intelligent" gamer is largely ignored because catering to them is harder to design and projections are woefully inadequate. The game industry accepts this reality because it has embraced indy as the new thing, so as to say "we don't really know what you want, so tell us". That is a perfectly healthy dialog for this industry, one that excites all of us gamers and developers to no end. Are projections getting better? I'd say yes, slowly. Is that the kind of speed you want to base your development cycle on? Well I sure wouldn't, but then i'm a competitive bastard.
Nobody wants this kind of game until it is built. This path is along the same vein as the total war series. Projections won't tell you, but my mass market analysis of ideas on these websites doing things the old fashioned way has proven to me that this is the next kind of great game.
Quoted for convenience:
Lets do a breakdown of games with staying power mentioned in these posts of the basic concept that was being thrown out here:
Mount and Blade: Still sells well, great mod support. I can and will easily predict that the next mount and blade game will make waves in the game industry. If you haven't seen this then I would recommend watching out for it.
Sins of a Solar Empire: I still see this game bought like crazy every time there is a sale. Good job RTS makers.
Fallen Enchantress: Yep we agree, great game, deserves even more attention and .
RTS: Seemingly out of fashion, yet the roots of many great companies stem from these games. Stardock/Ironclad, you guys made an RTS putting you on the radar of many more players....
Persistent world: Persistence thy name is MMO, these make money, almost every time.
So ya this idea was put forth with an understanding of both staying power and what does well in the marketplace. To not do so would just be a waste of everyone's time. Dear reader remember, if you choose to read that is not my doing, that is yours, I am blameless. I applaud you for reading, you are in the 15% of people that do(if you live in the USA). Bravo!
What you broke down was completely pointless. You do realize this don't you? Think about it. If you have to go to such lengths to explain what you meant then you are failing at communicating your point.
But what is your point now? You say things like 'companies should make RTS' then you say, that by saying should you're not actually saying that they should make those games. Because you didn't say anything 'solid'. Whatever that's supposed to mean.
You may not be trolling but you are clearly confused, and when faced with actual logic you crumble into a shell of nonsense replies which contradict your previous statements.
Here's another beauty.
This must be true because you said it right? I mean I'm sure that most companies would do better at making money if they didn't use any market data. Do you even know what market data is? Or is it just something to say to make it sound as though your point is stronger? Also what lack of satisfaction are you talking about? Again you are making very generic and sweeping statements about a group you DO NOT represent. I'm quite satisfied with the state of the video game industry, am I not a gamer then? Or...
Ahh, here's the real issue isn't it? You're apparently an intelligent gamer, and you are being ignored because everyone isn't making the kind of games you want to play. Here's the thing though, you are the niche (and I really don't mean intelligent). The kinds of games you want don't seem to sell well enough for 'serious developers' to make. Hey, that's too bad, I'd be happy if there simply more good games out there, whether I enjoy all of them or not.
Also I would imagine that there are some 'serious' RTS games out there that cater to 'intelligent' gamers. I don't know what they are, but I've heard various people discuss various games which sound as though they offer a lot of possibilities and are RTS. I would think something like the EU series should be in that vein, though I've only played EU2 and didn't care for it that much. Heck, even games like SotS and the TW series (though I've never played any TW) offer a mix of turn based and RTS and all were highly acclaimed (ok, not SotS2, but the 1st was excellent, even if I did have to suffer through the RTS battles).
Then, of course, there's Sins, and Distant Worlds. Again, not games I'm interested in playing, but games which are RTS and have very strong followings and are apparently also excellent.
So really, what are you after? Do you just want Ubi or Firaxis to make an RTS? Or what's wrong with Blizzard?
You see a lot of hyperbole with competitive games (which is when you hear the talk about games being crappy). RTS is a competitive genre, I don't see a lot of competitive TBS. If GalCiv3 MP takes off, you'll see much of the same on these forums, and your mods will have headaches. RTS to me is a high-risk, high-reward genre. Much of the difficulty with RTS development is balancing. That's something you have to worry about less with TBS games due to the lower reliance on MP. Some of the issues can be solved with a good MP modding community that is well-supported and listened to by the devs.
Because those things I mentioned match Stardock's strengths as a company, I could easily see it making a great RTS, especially if you made it more like a Kohan-styled game instead of a micromanagement-fest like Starcraft. The Elemental world seems perfect for that sort of game. Much of what is described above is what competitive communites want: replayability/meaningful updates/mod support (for MP mods) MP and SP balance are often quite different. (This is one thing that interests me about E2015: I haven't seen too many companies really seem to go hard for the SP balance- E2015 sounds like it's going in that direction)
For years, I've considered TBS games (such as GalCiv in particular) a great complement to my competitive habits, when I want something a little less hypercompetitive, especially if it has an immersive world and great variety. Sometimes you want a little variety.
In some ways, folks talking about a game being crappy is a positive sign (depending on what they're calling crap of course). It means they like the game enough to care about its flaws. Its when they aren't saying its crappy and just aren't playing it period that you need to worry. I once had this rather nasty high school teacher- but she did say one thing that stuck with me: the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. When folks hate your game, it means somewhere deep down they love something about it- when they're indifferent- they don't care enough to hate it, they've just moved on to something else.
Actually it makes perfect logical sense, even using appropriate definitions and everything. Your emotional rant is not very persuasive. I don't see anything in your post aside from character assassination, which in the end means I've won the only legitimate aspect of the discussion.
This must be beyond your experience in life, I'm sorry I can't help you connect the neurons in your brain for you. Do some of your own research.
The "intelligent" gamer is largely ignored because catering to them is harder to design and projections are woefully inadequate.
As I've stated earlier, I've done a lot of personal research into how niche the previously posted game idea would be. This game would capture a large market of players, people seemingly in different "niches" as defined by the market data yet are really yearning for the same type of satisfaction; that is why it deserves to see the light in a public discussion.
Obviously, I wouldn't bring market data up if I did not know about it, data in general, and how to extrapolate meaning from said data. Frogboy posting his flavor of the week Steam sale winners isn't really indicative of anything relevant about market data, yet he posts it as if that actually represents meaningful long term information (further proving my point).
This kind of mistaken analysis is part of the problem I have outlined above (along with letting the data determine your business decisions)...hence the issue with market data and how it is being interpreted. Using steam data has all sorts of selection bias, among other things will cause a sort of tunnel vision in planning for the next big game. This tunnel vision is obviously at work here with Frogboy, and I'll not get into it as this is not the place nor the time to be questioning ALL of his decisions. Just to make it clear, I'm impressed with what he's done with his company, that is the only reason I spend time typing about it. Leaders tend to lose perspective, especially those with highly technical backgrounds.
Take the last steam summer for example, companies were selling games competing for every last dollar giving out ridiculous discounts(of which I took extreme advantage of) and saturated the market with their games, while turning a tidy profit. Now, steam companies compete less because they are trying to make more money and have agreed not to compete as much (probably at steam's recommendation based upon the data, not a "backroom deal") to rake in more money. The data set is getting more precise as more information comes in, yet the data still isn't accurate enough. Long term the companies giving out great deals could have potentially over saturated the market with their products. That is why they are going with more of the DLC option, keep the money flowing in, offering discounts on some or none of them while retaining the price on their most recently produced games.
I have had fun watching the learning curve of the industry and how steam influences it, yet to say that the information steam provides is accurate is questionable. The industry is playing Valve's game. Developers, don't get sucked too far down the rabbit hole and start thinking that just because the dollars you are actually getting are indications of the accuracy of the data(at this point you have lost valve's game of confidence). Its still a learning game. Sadly, I foresee steam potentially as the end of volatility in the video game markets, which will further potential stagnation of new ideas (note how I do not say that I consider this fact, for you critical reading challenged out there).
This is easy enough to see, it's not rocket science.
I've been playing Open Xcom recently. Man it is so much better than the new Xcom (apart from graphics fidelity)Got my bases spread out Xcom HQ in north America near New York, Xcom Israel is an interceptor base, Xcom Japan is primarily research focus and Xcom Australia is a secondary solider base for protecting the Oceania region.Going to build another base in Europe somewhere.. either the UK or Russia, not sure yet and then another interceptor base in Brazil.Then I probably need to put one in South Africa... though they've already defected and there are two alien bases there I need to take out...
As for why you're finding this Steam Summer Sale disappointing (Referring to to posts above- too long to quote)- I suspect much of it is you've got everything you wanted on your backlog, so it's only newer stuff you're looking at, or things you are going to buy on sale only.
Things like AOW3 for half off is pretty damn good given how new it is, or LH for 80% off.
That said, I only spent $3.50 or so this far- Papers Please which I'm not feeling, and One Way Heroics, which is the best under $1 game I've played in a while. (it's worth getting at $3- especially at 87 cents)
I do think your worries about stagnation aren't justified- there's always going to be folks making games on the indie side of things, so there will always be innovation. An end to volatility in markets does not lead to end in innovation.
Thanks for reminding me to check this^ one out; game looks great.
Before my PC died?
Warlock 2, AoW3; Endless Legend.
I only started playing this game again because it runs on my laptop, and I bought and played Heroes of Might and Magic V, the original Age of Wonders (I already owned the second), and mods for Civ' IV until I was bored before picking this game back up.
This isn't even including the Sci-Fi or Historical genres, which I consider separate from fantasy, or games of other genres.
Strange that you don't include Dota 2 in that round up. It dwarves everything else, IIRC.
DOTA2 and all those MOBA's are crap and exactly what is wrong with mainstream gaming nowadays.
I guess you missed how much of Sins' MP resembles Dota [2]: 5v5s the common form of play... check! Hero (capital ship) abilities can leveled four times and they have an ultimate one too (levelable 3 times in Dota 2, but only twice in Sins:R)... check! "Captain's Mode" (in Dota) is the PUG practiced on ICO. Etc.
And it you're thinking about the pay2win aspect, Dota [2] doesn't have that, although many if not most other MOBAs (and MMORPGs) have that element.
And I was apparently wrong in that LoL (also not mentioned here) is still the most popular according to http://www.latinpost.com/articles/12821/20140517/league-of-legends-vs-dota-2-riot-games-moba-still-dominates-pc-gaming-field-but-valves-steam-hit-growing-in-popularity.htm. LoL is apparently so popular it can snub Steam altogether (http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/07/league-of-legends-appears-in-steam-apps-database/), so you won't find [correct] stats about LoL on Steam. The twitch.tv top is perhaps more interesting/relevant: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/league-of-legends-was-the-most-watched-game-on-twitch-in-may/1100-6420756/
Dominions 4 is my current timesink. Has played a lot of Warlock 2 lately as well.
If someone made a Dominions with proper UI, AI and Graphics, we would have the best game ever made
I don't know if it strictly speaking fits into the category of "fantasy strategy games", but one game I have been playing a lot deserves mentioning:
King of the Dragon Pass
If you can, check it's modernized version on iOs, it's superb. If you can't, the old PC version is available at GOG.
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