There are a lot of "wish list" threads in this forum, so here's mine. Its about logistics.
Logistics is the management of the flow of goods, assuring that "everybody get the right quantity of what they want when they need it, at the right price". From a military perspective, the conduct of war can be (grossely) summed up in maintaining your logistics ability while disrupting the logistics of your opponent. A lot of legendary military leaders achieved what they did not only because they were master tacticians, but because they were logistical geniuses as well. In my opinion, logistics is less sexy than tactic and strategy, but its actualy more important to the conduct of military activities.
In a military context, logistics affect the speed of movement, distance, speed of deployment, the quality of your units over time, their effectiveness and, most important of all in this day and age, force projection.
How this apply in a 4X4 game is best illustrated by the game Heart of Iron II. HoI is a magnificently complex game of management and strategy, the most complex I'm aware of. For exemple, in HoI, you have a Transport Capacity score. Every action taken by a unit (fighting, deplacement, occupying) use some of your TC score. If for exemple at any given time, your total used TC is 90, and you have 100 TC available, then everything goes as planned. If your use of TC is 110 and your total TC available is 100, then you start to have penalties on speed. Your units get a lot slower.
In my current Heart of Iron game, as Imperial japan in 1940, because of poor diplomatic management I'm stuck fighting the Soviets in Manchuria and the British in India, while I have to ship my reinforcements all the way from the islands of Japan while my fleet moves back and forth between these two theaters for support. This situation is realistically unsustainable and the game reflect that with proper mechanics: my total TC available is of 200, but I'm using between 350-400 TC every day. So my units are now slow as fuck. Even when I win a battle, every time I move in to occupy a province, the enemy as time to fix itelf up and counterattack, so I have to beat them 3 or 4 times before I actualy make any visible progress on the map. This game being a bit linear, I know I'll also be facing the Americans in late '41. I'm fucked.
But many technologies can help you manage your logistics and your transportation capacity. So needless to say, in a game like HoI it add a lot of depth.
Relating to GalCiv, this is a game set in space that is mainly about immensely delicate and complex machines traveling inimaginable distance in a horribly hostile and undauntable environment. Logistics should then be further developed. For example, logistics could be a function of distance, influence and industrial output, coupled with technological and racial bonuses, and could impact the following;
Among other things.
Lots of technologies and civilization traits could have a role here. The Yor could be better at managing fleets and maintaining moral on distant planets because computers and AI and shit, while a race bent on exploration and expansion could have more divers and better life support and space mining techs. I dunno, just some ideas.
I hope this isnt too redundant.
I would really like to see this sort of play added to GalCiv3. Never played Heart of iron. But it reminds me of some pre-computer games made by SPI. War in Europe, War in the pacific, etc. Gary Grisby is alumni of SPI and took gaming to PCs. Distant Worlds has some aspects of what you suggest. and its one of the things I enjoy about DW. Anyway, lets hope the developers will make space for this aspect of game play.
Thanks.
Also, here's a tl:dr: distance should matter in GalcivIII. The effectivity of ships, starbases and planets in a number of area should be determined by their distance relatively to your empire.
Fellow Hearts of Iron fan? Then I don't need to say I like your ideas.
I imagine that Stardock learned a lot from how Sins dealt with increasing fleet sizes and distances from the capital world.
Judging by LH (if I'm not mistaken), they also know risks of grown empire.
This has been done a lot of different ways in different games. I'm not sure I like reducing the units effectiveness, as it has a side effect of lowering the effectiveness of a deep strike tactic (sneak some guys deep into someones territory with cloaking and take a world where they can't react to it). Making my ships slower and weaker makes it harder to do that.
If it's not going to go fine grained enough to track things like ammo or feul, maybe it should be a more straightforward damage per time effect. If I'm outside of my supply range, I can't get supplies to do things like replace or repair routine damage to my ships, and they start to break down. That imposes an effective time limit without resupply (aka: being in my logistics range) after which my ships don't really function.
•Repair rate-like it. It ADDS FUN to a bleak area.
•Battle effectiveness-I think logistics already determines that through the number of allowed vessels in combat.
•Planetary moral-I am so happy my empire got that shipment of guns on time. Hear is some more of my tax dollars lol. I don't get it.
•Size of planetary population-when starting a colony there is only so much you can bring, but I don't want logistics to determine that.
•Defense capability of a planet- that is a wonderful idea. Karma for that iggore.
•Industrial output of space mining (oh wait we already do that!)-I hardly care anyway.
•Fleet size (the farther you are, the less effective a large fleet will be)-Range is for that, if I am within my allowed range I don't want to care about the distance. Large of small.
•Fleet speed (the farther and/or larger your fleet is, the harder it is to resupply it and the slower it moves)-hell no. If I was somehow outside of my range, there should be penalty but this is similar to the last few ideas, no?
•Fleet cost (the farther you are, the more it cost to maintain)-maybe if I was out side the range limit again. But why have range if you can go further even if there us a penalty.
•Ship degradation (if a ship can't be resupplied at all for some reason, it begins to degrade on its own)-like if a wormhole takes my FS outside of my influence. Ok.
•Life support. (We already do that as well, kinda)-I had a similar idea not long ago. And it would be a multiplayer not a divider of range to reward the player for its research.
•Invasion effectiveness-like it. As long as it's a bonus and not a malice.
•In essence, anything that involves force projection and map control-thanks iggore, for giving us your creative ideas. And for speaking your opinion (for obvious f*#kin@ reasons. Lol.)
DARCA
I got HoI this week and I love it.
I just quite my game with Japan, I accumulated too many mistakes; I started playing the game like it was Risk or Axis and Allies and got screwed. The learning curve of this game is brutal, but I love it.
How do they do it in Sins?
SoaSE gave you a percentile penalty to your entire empire's income each time you increased your fleet cap. So while you maintained the minimum fleet cap, your economy provided you with 100% of its earnings. At the next level of fleet cap, the economy provided you with, say, 90% of its earnings, and each subsequent increase in the fleet cap increased the penalty. Note that the economic cost was not related to current fleet size, only to the current fleet cap, and if I recall correctly ships in SoaSE did not have an upkeep cost.
Distance from the home world in SoaSE governed the maximum loyalty of a system; a system with 25% loyalty only sent you 25% of its resources and tax income, while a system with 50% loyalty sent you 50% of the same, and a system with 125% loyalty gave you 125%. The way it worked out was basically that you had the homeworld at ~125% loyalty, the worlds adjacent to it at ~100% loyalty, then the next 'ring' of worlds at ~90% loyalty, then the ring beyond that at ~75% loyalty, and then everything else was at 25% loyalty (note that I'm not positive on these numbers, and there might be one more step in there somewhere). You benefited somewhat from having a larger empire, but the thing that really carried your economy was your core worlds unless you just had an enormous empire.
The combination of these two mechanics basically meant that you didn't really gain anything from expanding your empire beyond a certain point, because firstly the fleet cap is a hard cap on the total number of ships you can have, and does not depend on empire size or map size and so it becomes increasingly difficult to properly defend an empire the larger it becomes, and secondly having a high fleet cap means that the lower loyalty worlds (which are all of them, once you go much beyond your homeworld) provide you basically nothing, because they have at least a 75% income penalty which multiplies the fleet cap related penalty, which essentially means that those fringe worlds are providing you maybe 10% of their potential income when your core worlds are each providing four or more times as much. And while you could provide static defenses to assist in holding the fringe regions, static defenses were seriously outclassed by a halfway decent fleet in the hands of even a moderately incompetent player (though Entrenchment helped static defenses out by bringing in starbases, which aside from usually being immobile are roughly equivalent to a small fleet in terms of firepower, though it also brought in some anti-starbase designs which can kill a starbase from beyond the starbase's range, and starbases are expensive to build and even more expensive to upgrade to a decent level). Rebellion made it worse because it gave everyone a one-of-a-kind superunit which 1. essentially makes a fleet unkillable unless opposed by another Titan-supported fleet and 2. is terribly slow and therefore not particularly easy to use as a response force. Which basically meant that if someone's running around on one side of your empire with a Titan and supporting fleet while your Titan and supporting fleet is on the other side of your empire, you might as well write off that side of your empire and just go mess up your opponent's empire instead, because you aren't going to get your fleet over there in time to effectively deal with the problem if you've got a large empire, big fleet battles are rather expensive regardless of who wins, unless one side is outplayed, and it's still only really the core worlds that matter, income-wise.
Thanks a lot for the answer. This makes me hopeful that we might, maybe, see a game mechanic where distance and size needs to be managed and taken into account for the management of your empire.
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