Mostly what it says on the tin, however let's add some maturity and clarification on what I mean by that.
With modern technology being what it is, and the fact that we aren't really going to have to control our fleets in a micromanagement level, I would love to see fleets of maybe a few hundred ships per side ala Sins of a Solar Empire (though much easier since we can avoid the aforementioned micro-management). Because when I think galactic warfront I don't think 4 battleships per side as an entire fleet.
PLEASE use modern technology to it's advantage so that when I am watching a battle play out in cinematic I can enjoy an epic scale battle Royal that feels like I'm fighting a war for control of the galaxy, and not a pithy little skirmish.
(also please let us have full control of the camera)
It would be nice.
Я согласен с тобой. Космические бои должны быть эпичными, чтобы действительно чувствовать что ты бьёшься за галактику, а не участвуешь в мелкой войне. Думаю космические бои должны быть таких же масштабов что и в начале 3 эпизода Звёздный Войн или на финальную битву из Mass Effect 3.
Not saying I disagree (I don't, the idea sounds great!), but unless each "ship" we build represents dozens of actual vessels, getting hundreds of vessels together is going to be a real bitch on any map size smaller than huge, or in any appreciable length of time.
That being said, I would like for my aforementioned idea to be execute; have each "ship" represent a fleet of vessels its class.
'Я согласен с тобой. Космические бои должны быть эпичными, чтобы действительно чувствовать что ты бьёшься за галактику...' I agree, epic battles! The fate of the galaxy, of all truly civilized societies, is at stake.
Additionally, I would like to see some sort of overall fleet, task force, management system in place when, at the beginning (or in preparation for) a battle, the players may select from a set of tactics, strategems, strategies their side will attempt to implement. The interplay of each side's choices made when battle ensues will shape how the battle plays out. Solid, sound, and/or clever choices may turn the tide. Items that would affect the possible range of choices would include: current tech of ships; command quality [skill, training, tactics/strategems researched/enabled by research] of fleet/ship leaders; location of battle (near an orbital battery? near a convoy ship/fleet, over a colony / empty world, near many small moons / asteroid belts, etc.); training level of task force / fleet / squad / armada, etc. Each player would, when battle seems imminent, make a selection from currently available options and issue these directives to the ship / fleet commanders. Battle would have three stages, the approach, engagement, and withdraw (if going badly) or pursue (if doing well). They would then attempt to engage enemy ship/TF/fleet/armada using these strategems. For illustration purposes: My TF consists of 10 small, very fast, lightly armed w long range weapons, 2 cruiser size hvy protection, med rage weapons, 1 CnC ship, large, heavy protection, few long range weapons. My choices would depend on current tech, tech of the ships actually there, skills / training of fleet leaders, etc. Choices might include frontal engage, inflict maximum damage, or, have small ships screen, while rest close and target enemy CnC ship. Right enfilade. Left enfilade. Feint left. Feint center. Fighting withdrawal. Fighting withdrawal towards orbital battery (assuming one is in range). This way the battles aren't just masses of ships hacking at each other. A player could watch their leaders attempting to implement the chosen strategies as the battle unfolds, for good or ill.
Not really, I remember playing games like Space Empires IV back in the day, or even Sword of the Stars / Sins of a Solar Empire. Mobilizing a fleet of a few hundred ships only takes a few turn depending on how the economics of the game is going to work out. That is to say if I can build a dreadnought from on of my industrial worlds in 2-4 turns instead of 6-10 turns.
Though another way is to have each "unit" we build actually BE a unit, I.e when we build a "destroyer" we actually are building a squadron of say 6 destroyers so that when the battle takes place we see the 6 destroyers of the squadron.
@starhawk11 yes, that is part of what I was suggesting. TF, squad, fleet = one descrete unit being built, moved on game map, but actually is a group of ships. Each unit, depending on its design (mix of ships, tech, leaders assigned, training, would have a set of options for movement and especially when in battle.
Oh d'oh yeah I totally brainfarted on what you were trying to say for some reason. I was thinking you meant like a "unit" of destroyers would be one model with a number counter for some reason.
Keeping everything the same only making one ship be 10 ships does not make it more epic.
I swesr this this exact same conversation happened on the elemental forums years ago.
Epic fleets? Yes please. While we're at it, why not introduce carriers? Carriers could add a certain tactical aspect to the game, being able to carry numbers of certain small craft into battle, possibly circumventing any logistics issues. I mean come on, who doesn't want a Supercarrier in space?Edit: Oh my, apparently Carriers will be included? Wonderful news.
Yes to epic fleets. Compare "epic" battles of Age of Empires with highly limited numbers of units, and ordinary melee in Cossacs, where you could have more units in formation, than whole AoE party.
Uh actually dramatically increasing the scale of fleets in what amounts to a cinematic scene then yes...having a fleet of hundreds of ships DOES make things more "epic" see the definition of EPIC.
ep·ic
/ˈɛpɪk/ Show Spelled [ep-ik] Show IPA
The problem with Sins of a Solar Empire was that there were so many ships, and they were difficult to micromanage in battle. Personally i am OK with smaller fleets when we are free to design our own ships.
There won't be any micromanagement in battles; everything is set up beforehand.
Making it harder to follow each individual ship by making the battles "epic" doesen't sound like a good idea. The point of the visual battles is to get an idea of how your unit designs performs.
Just a different view of the same opinion; no, them being difficult to micromanage was NOT the problem, the problem was that they needed micromanagement in the first place. The ship behaviour leaves a lot to be desired in Sins. Fleets look awesome though. A fleet passing a star is a view worth making backgrounds from.
In this podcast Paul Boyer says, "those fleets can be 60 ships each" (around 46:04 min.).
As for having full control of the camera, that was already possible in GalCiv 2, if you set the camera to Free Cam in the Combat Viewer. I doubt, that the devs would remove that from GalCiv 3.
Yep, this really is the Elemental forums all over again!
By your logic, we could remove the entire empire part of the game, and just give you 500,000 ships. It's the most "epic" game ever!
Having exactly the same game only where building one ship gives you one unit that you move around but is drawn as 100 ships isn't more epic. It's eye candy. You don't actually have 100 units, you have one unit that's just being drawn to look like more of them. It actually plays as one. It's trickery.
Getting "epic" fleets would require changing the game so you're actually controlling more distinct pieces, but that actually gets tedious.
When games want to be epic, they have to do it through the other definitions: by being spectacular, or offering heroic things. Just throwing "more stuff" at it doesn't do anything good.
Yes and no, you'd still get the same general gist of what your ships are doing and performing as even if they operated in battle squadrons instead of single ship units.
Good for you with the eyerolls and whatnot but also way to dramatically oversimplify what I'm saying to try and justify your own stance.
I'm in no way saying take the Empire building part out of the game, and in no way did I even imply that I would sacrifice that to get vast fleets.
What I was saying is that in terms of cinematic experience which oh gosh and golly the battle view pretty much is summed up as would have a more sweeping and epic feel with hundreds of ships per side.
Your argument if you can even call it that since you have no real point beyond some vague references to a game I've never played from a forum I never read from years ago is "Oh well it's just TRICKERY to have a multiple vessel unit!" which is childish and ignores the fact that there are already quite a few strategy games which give the "illusion" of large scale despite sometimes hundreds of pieces being a part of a single "unit".
Good example is the total war series for modern games, THOUSANDS of troops per side...20 units, it gives the "illusion" of an epic clash of armies by using singular units that consist of hundreds of soldiers each and considering you did have to micromanage those troops and that tactical combat was a main focus yes the Empire building side suffered, but that is not to say it has to suffer to get such an "illusion" to still have a desired effect of sweeping scope and vast battles especially considering unlikethe Total War series and some RTS games with multi-piece units you won't need to micromanage and can just sit back and enjoy the show.
And no getting large scale fleets does not require you to dramatically change the game and your own argument of "It's just trickery!" invalidates this claim by itself. Because yeah it's an "illusion" because I'd design a class of say destroyers and just build a squadron of them as a single piece ala Total War and other such games. Lots of visual appeal and cool eye candy to watch...no dramatic shifts in game design.
When you look at story telling from any other source, you ever notice how epic stories tend to be focused on small numbers of people? Epic stories, epic sequences in movies, even epic moments in games. None of them throw five thousand things at you and go "oh, now its epic!" There's a reason for that.
"Do the same thing, only with more stuff" is not epic. It never has been epic. It never will be epic.
(And the Elemental reference is just an amusing thing, because this literal exact conversation happened while that game was in development, by the same company. When you've been around long enough it's fun to watch how repetitive these things tend to get.)
It's also important that the logistic system don't get broken by massive amounts of ships possible in a fleet. There needs to be a fine tuned balance there.
And that's not counting the fact that
Yeah nice try, except you're again over simplifying things:Troy
Saving Private Ryan opening scene
Battle of The Bulge
Spartacus (old and new)
300 Spartans (old movie cast of a few hundred portrayed as thousands)
300 (modern movie)
Star Wars
Kingdom of Heaven
Lord of the Rings
Legend of Galactic Heroes
Space Battleship Yamato
The list goes on and on and on.
They all have a "core cast" yes but they all have scenes of vast armies/fleets/both engaged in huge battles though star wars tends to waste it in the prequels.
Let's go to games:Call of Duty had scenes where they offer the illusion of vast things happening around you.
Homeworld had settings that allowed fleets of hundreds of ships on a good computer and Homeworld 2 had mods that allowed the same.
Clash of the Titans had epic scale though focusing on a small cast.
Sins of a Solar Empire (same company) has fleets of hundreds of ships possible.
Total War series: Armies of tens of thousands
Total Annihilation had hundreds of units (in the mid 90s)
StarCraft has epic stories where vast fleets fight it out though they never really take advantage of this in graphics.
Mass Effect final battle scenes of 1 and 3 and in the case of 3 several smaller scenes
And that's not counting the fact that this game isn't exactly the type where you are focused on a core cast during critical scenes...or any really.
Oh and literature:
The Foundation Series (Isaac Asimov) had fleets of MILLIONS of ships and wars across thousands of worlds.
The Honor Harrington series has a core cast but has climactic battles of hundreds or thousands of ships
See this just sounds like you going "Well I don't like the idea of things changing from what I think is appropriate."
whet about taking a idea from elemental.
at the starts of the game you make 2 fighter per build, but has the game progress you make 16 per batch
Crussers should be singe built always, but if you build a carrier you get the whole battle group.
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