Disclaimer: I just started playing this game.
It seems like clubs are far more useful than spears.
From a pure attack point of view: it takes 30 points of defense before spears do more damage than armor (factoring the 33% decrease)
Spears are faster, however I have never seen initiative factor a huge role in battle unless it's something drastic, like an air elemental's 36
Clubs give you shields as an off-hand equip.
Impale requires you to position your spears correctly and for the enemy to be lined up, crushing blow you can just walk up and bonk someone on the head, and it's great when facing a big enemy that you can isolate and bonk repeatedly.
When looking further out: boar spear (atk 9) vs mace (atk 14) is even worse. There is no trade-off point, (it's actually -12.7) so clubs will always hit harder.
I haven't gotten far enough where I have played with swords and axes as much but both have lower damage output than clubs. Swords main thing is high initiative, but I don't see a point to boosting initiative unless it's a dramatic boost (like you getting 3 turns for every 2 of theirs). Axes, 2-handed. Cleave is kind of interesting when the rest of your army takes the "do extra damage to damaged enemies" boost.
Am I just completely off-base here? I'd like to be, but it seems that bashing weapons are the best go-to weapons. Can someone disabuse me of this notion?
Nope. Hammers are the bang for the buck always. Hopefully they will tweak it soon.
And that makes militias ridicilously scary as well... they can kill fully armored troops, where your spears barely make a dent.
The defensive trait is interesting though, One-Handed Spears, and high armor, you can make some strategic decisions with it, but without it? No, get hammers instead.
I can't disabuse you from this notion, but there is also the counterattack immunity with spears that wasn't mentioned above. I found that bashing weapons are a very good go to weapon and spears do not inspire me to use them. Would like to see more with the spears...
It depends on the traits you pick for your units - Finesse can make up for the attack difference unless you've put different types of armor on your troops, which can make your spears competitive against enemy clubs and perhaps axes.
I will agree, though, that at present clubs and axes are the best general-purpose melee weapons for your armies. Spears and swords are much more like specialty weapons (swords for tank specialists and really very high initiative units, spears for flankers and high initiative units). Unfortunately, the specialty role for spears is kind of negligible, since the battlefields tend to be rather constrained, and I'd usually (though not always) rather wipe out the units next to my own rather than units which are one tile further out. Spears can be helpful for running down fast units and as battle openers, though, because you can use Impale as a ranged attack.
The counter-attack immunity benefit to spears is kind of useless, though. When Bash triggers, it gives the same effect and prevents the next normal attack, too, and counter-attacks are already generally weaker than normal attacks, and if Mighty Blow kills off a unit, then that unit isn't going to make any counterattack it may have had. Plus, swords seem slightly rare in AI armies.
Crushing Blow eliminates Counterattack completely, and is part of the problem. If counterattack hit BEFORE crushing blow, it would negate a lot of the damage and be better overall.
I've reduced the Crushing Blow bonus from 100% extra attack to only 50% extra attack and have had remarkable improvement in the balance of my gameplay. I'm finding that I don't always want to have a club heavy army and that other weapon types actually have their uses too.
Swords do need a buff, so counterattack working before certain special skills would do that. This would then power up spears. (or spears need their damage back)
Notice that I didn't say the counter attack immunity is all that important, it was just another ability missed in the list of perks for the spear. I tend to think that crushing blow is a rather powerful punch.
I'm also curious if it is intended that these special attacks are all normal piercing damage or did they intend to use the fire, poison, lightning, cold attacks inherit with the weapons. If it is supposed to use the special attacks, then there are errors in the xml.
Might be nice if impale ability ignores 33% more armor. That would make it more useful and fits in the theme of the attack.
Yes, it bypasses it for the unit which uses Crushing Blow. However, unless it kills or knocks down the target or you only use special abilities to attack the sword unit, it doesn't eliminate the Counterattack completely, just changes which unit incurs a counterattack.
Swords, in my opinion, are only really useful for tank units, because it lets you put the tanks into defensive stance while still maintaining some minor damage output, and the initiative bonus slightly offsets the penalty of using plate (or chain) armor. There's a possibility that you could create a highly-specialized high initiative unit with them, and take Finesse to reduce the damage difference between swords and clubs to create a hit-and-run type unit, but swords are even worse than spears in the damage department since they lack armor penetration yet have the same attack values, so it's not really as useful, and Finesse is nearly as likely to work for a unit using spears as for a unit using swords.
Axes are good for the center of your melee line if you're at a point in the game where you're fighting medium or large armies that have a significant melee component, especially if you can get the opposing forces into a line so that you can take full advantage of Cleave, which is then effectively a 200% attack bonus (but since it's not concentrated on a single target, it isn't always as good as Crushing Blow). The other thing is that the damage isn't that much worse than what clubs have (although this seems a bit backwards), and the passive special ability of axes essentially screws over dodge as a defense mechanism unless you really go all-out for dodge when designing a unit.
The other thing about clubs is that Crushing Blow costs you one of your turns, which the other weapon special attacks do not. If it kills off or severely weakens the enemy, it doesn't matter so much, but it's a cost to keep in mind when choosing weapons.
Technically impale (and the axe's cleave) should negate a bit more armor than normal. The reason is a normal 10x3 impale attack turns into a single 30 attack....which should penetrate armor easier.
That said, i haven't really noticed that working in game, so i feel like something else is going on.
i doubt that's how they implemented it. wouldn't make any sense to roll all their attacks into one super attack for special moves. the description/tooltip for the special attacks is probably just simplified.
One thing to keep in mind with Swords/Daggers is that the counterattack is essentially a free second attack. Sure, you need to survive the attack, but this means you get two attacks in for every one the clubber is throwing at you. Top that off with the initiative difference (+3 versus -4), and this means just shy of 50% more attacks (Initiative 16 versus 23), which magnifies the number of total attacks/counterattacks even further.
Of course, you don't see Daggers before the Weaponry tech, and Weaponry also provides Warhammers. This is Attack 9 versus attack 6. Axes at at that level are 8 attack with -2 initiative.
So, to break down the Weaponry Tech situation...
Everyone gets 6/7 defense (Leather/Athican Leather, plus Greaves, Bracers, Boots and Cap). Some get shields, sooo...
Warhammer: 9 Att, 8/9 Def, +2 to dodge. Initiative 16. Double attack strength every 5 turns (lose a turn).
Dagger: 6 Att, 8/9 Def, +2 to dodge. Initiative 23. 1 counterattack/round.
Spear: 5 Att, 6/7 Def. Initiative 20. Ignores 33% of defense. Attack 2 units in line every 5 turns.
Axe: 8 Att, 6/7 Def. Initiative 18. May attack up to 3 units every 5 turns, Backswing: 2nd chance to hit.
Club: 6 Att, 8/9 Def. Initiative 16. Double attack strength every 5 turns (lose a turn)
OK, assuming the attack*attack versus attack + defense is the way attack damage is calculated...
Warhammer. 16 Initiative. 81 attack versus 11-18 defense: 5-9 max damage. Double damage every 5 turns, no damage next turn.
Dagger: 23 Initiative. 36 attack versus 11-18 defense: 2-4 max damage. Counterattack.
Spear: 20 Initiative: 25 attack versus 8-12 defense: 2-3(?) max damage. Attack versus 2 targets every 5 turns or so.
Axe: 18 Initiative: 64 attack versus 11-18 defense: 4-6 max damage. Attack up to 3 targets every 5 turns or so.
Club: 16 Initiative: 36 attack versus 11-18 defense: 2-4 max damage. Double damage every 5 turns, no damage next turn.
oh, and just for fun:
Crude Shortbow: 12 Initiative: 36 attack versus 11-18 Defense: 2-4 Max Damage. Ranged. Not included below, just here for comparison.
For the sake of argument, all units have 24 hit points/3 members.
So, on round...
5 - Dagger will attack first. Reduce target unit size by 1, maaaaaybe if you hit
5 -Spear will attack second, and possibly impale... target size not reduced, yet.
6 -Axe will attack third, with the option to strike up to 3 targets. Target size reduced by 1 probably if you hit
7- Club/Warhammer will attack last, and do double damage. Target size reduced by at least 1, if not 2, if you hit.
*BTW, Dagger units that survive being hit will attack one more time, except against spears..*
9 - Surviving Daggers go again.
10 - Surviving Spears go again.
12 - Surviving Axes go again.
13 - Surviving Clubs/Warhammers go again, unless they used crushing blow.
*Again, surviving daggers get to counterattack once, except against spears...
14 - Surviving Daggers go again.
15 - Surviving Spearmen go again.
17 - Surviving Axes go again.
18 - Surviving Daggers go again.
19 - Surviving Clubs/Warhammers go again.
20 - Surviving Spearmen go again.
22 - Surviving Daggers go again.
23 - Surviving Axes go again.
25 - Surviving Clubs/Warhammers are tied with Surviving Spearmen, and go again.
27 - Surviving Daggers go again.
29 - Surviving Axes go again.
30 - Surviving Spearmen go again.
31 - Surviving Daggers go again.
32 - Surviving Clubs/Warhammers go again.
34- Surviving Axes go again.
35 - Surviving Daggers go again, followed by Surviving Spearmen.
Sooo, if you are packing Daggers, if you can arrange for Clubbers/Warhammers to move twice before you engage, you will have two attacks before their next attack, plus a counterattack... and against Axemen they need to move 3 times before you can get the two attack advantage. Against spearmen, they will need to move 4 times before you can get the two attack advantage, but no counterattack versus them...
When fighting against daggers, keep this in mind when maneuvering.
Swords also follow this pattern btw. Heavy Armor skews this quite a bit, but this just magnifies Sword's initiative advantage when fighting similarly armored foes... With a -6 armor penalty a Hammer will have 10 initiative, versus Sword's 17 initiative, so the two attack advantage kicks in at the point after Hammer moves once. Of course, those Swords will have more armor to penetrate...
Food for thought.
Counterattacks only get to use half of the normal attack rating, and moreover only trigger if the unit in question is attacked, after the damage from the triggering attack is dealt (which means that if the figure count in the unit was reduced by the attack, it affects the strength of the counterattack). It isn't anything like a full second attack, and only really counts as an extra half of a normal attack if you're facing unarmored opponents. It keeps getting worse from there (when facing opponents with a defense rating equal to the attack rating of the sword, the counterattacks are only dealing a third of the damage of the primary attack, assuming that they hit). If we're being generous, counterattacks probably only add about 25% to the damage output of swordsmen. The argument for the initiative difference is much, much stronger as far as a damage bonus goes, especially as there are ways to avoid counterattacks.
On the counterattack thing, sure it may not be as strong, but I've regularly seen units 'eliminate' themselves by attacking sword/dagger units. A kill is a kill...
Plus, in mono a mono situations, which can be arranged via manuevering, you can limit an opponent's attacking options, thus increasing the chance he WILL have to attack your sword/dagger unit. Plus, since you probably squeezed in the first attack, he probably is damaged already, making a counterattack kill/size reduction more likely. Especially if you timed the two attacks versus one thing properly. AND, if those clubbers bash one of your dagger/sword dudes out of existence, well you have two MORE attacks until their next action to exact retribution. Possibly even three attacks...
Spearmen are the exception to the rule, of course, as are certain creatures, etc. that have counterattack immunity. But once swords hit their stride, these units become very useful in quickly dispatching the enemy, assuming you don't just line up real pretty for the axeman...
You can't use that Crushing Blow ability if you are already dead!
The Athican Longsword does very well in this regard, and has a second counterattack up it's sleeve.
With all that, the early game dagger/sword situation isn't all that good attack strength wise, so maneuver is the key. If you get 'pinned down', and allow that Clubber to bash you, well if he hits you may not live to tell the tale... My sword units do quite well against the AI, especially when they swarm... and even the Dagger units make a good accounting of themselves.
It all comes down to tactics, and playing your strengths against the opponent's weaknesses. Sometimes, arranging for one of your units to enter a killzone/soak up enemy attacks can open the enemy up for some quite nasty followup attacks!
Heroes in particular make good swordsmen, thanks mainly to not being reduced in 'unit size' when they suffer damage. That argument works both ways, of course, but being able to act first is a big thing once you get a decent attack strength sword (say 9+).
BTW, I used to be an axeman, but shields and initiative kinda changed my mind. Finesse is more interesting than just lining up and beating each other senseless anyways... That being said, having an axeman or clubber available in your unit mix is not a bad idea. Combined arms and all that...
The mount situation changes things a bit as well, and actually helps the clubbers a bit (+2 to everyone's initiative lowers the first versus second attack ratio a bit), but Wargs are more helpful in the initiative sense. (Horses only get this bonus on the first go round).
On that note, if everyone thinks that spears are useless, I'd love to see them get their shields back. We have LOTS of historical precedent for Spear/Lance and shield...
Some spears might require 2 hands (thinking pikes here), but, using historical references, most are regularly used with shields. Attack values might need to be adjusted slightly, especially for mid/late game spear type weapons, but I'd rather have the game be a little more realistic in this regard.
Shaka Zulu!
I don't mind spears. I tend to have an army of high movement and high initiative units, e.g. a couple of heroes, a couple of summoned units, two or three trained units. My problem with clubs/ hammers is that my high movement and high initiative units have already engaged the enemy before the hammer units get involved. Crushing blow and shields are certainly nice, but I just find that units armed with spears get into the action more. At the very start of the game you don't even get wooden shields, and even when you do get them they're not that massive an improvement over nothing. I forget exactly how the tech tree works but I generally seem to research boar spears before maces. I agree when you get maces and metal shields the balance shifts, but my strategy focuses on winning battles early in the game, and during those early battles I'd generally prefer to have spear armed troops who get involved than club armed troops who plod forward too slowly. Crushing blow damage is massive, certainly, but you lose a turn compared to impale, on top of the lower initiative. You can usually impale two units right at the start of a battle (especially if you only have two trained units). Later on it can be handy for efficiently finishing off a damaged unit and hitting another unit (when crushing blow would be overkill).
The later weapons and shields definitely shift the balance away from spears, but by that stage I'm probably mainly winning battles with spells anyway.
Re: the non-spear weapons, clubs/ hammers are probably my second favourite to spears, swords are even higher initiative than spears and fine if you have decent swords and decent shields (especially if you have access to the special swords). The one I almost never build are axes. They take a lot of research, have an initiative penalty, and you can't use a shield. It's very unusual that you can actually hit three enemies with cleave; if you can only hit two, then the special ability is only as good as spears, plus you don't get the armour piercing and you have an initiative penalty,
Backswing is nice, especially for lower accuracy troops, but scarcely a game-changer. I have wondered about creating lots of cheap units and giving them axes as an equalizer, they could do a fair amount of damage when swarming. However in most circumstances I would have thought club armed troops would do a lot more damage before dying, and club armed troops would die a lot more slowly if you give them shields. I've yet to find a good use for axe troops.
It's very easy to understimate the importance of initiative, by the way. Because of the way unit damage decreases as units take damage, just going first is important, above and beyond any extra attacks you may get. So, simplistically, if two spear units of four troops face two club units of four troops, let's say one spear unit impales, so they do 10*5 damage, and two club troops are killed. The club units now do 6*7 damage, +100%, killing four spear troops. But the spear units now get two attacks, because the club units are dazed. Maybe they will be able to use the second impale. In another couple of attacks they will have another free attack, because they get five attacks for every four by the club troops.
It's certainly not obvious that the club troops will win, assuming the spear troops can attack first. Higher initiative troops do not always get their attack off first, but they have a much better chance of it. On top of that the spear units' higher initiative just gives more options in terms of moving units to swarm, moving units out of danger so they can survive and gain levels, etc.
Sword units have even better initiative than spear units, do more damage, and they can use a shield and counterattack, but perhaps unexpectedly they are the most vulnerable to counterattacks. Spears never get counterattacked, axes and clubs don't get counterattacked when using their special attack. Swords will always get counterattacked if that unit has counterattacks remaining, and some AI and monster unit counterattacks are devastating.
The more games I've played, the more I like to have as high initiative as possible. Throw some haste on a high initiative troop and you can often get two attacks in for every one of the AI's. A lot of good points in here but I'll add that spears, in my view, are better in the later game when that 33% defense penetration starts to really add up. AI favors heavy armor, and I frequently see units with defense of 70+. Against that, your crushing blow may well not kill the enemy in one strike, in which case you have to lose a turn (on top of getting fewer turns already due to lower initiative) and eat the pain. Additionally, higher initiative is even more noticeable against really SLOW enemies like club-toting plate-wearers.
Anyway, I try to have a mix of weapons because I just find it more fun. Min/maxing simply isn't necessary, and like someone else already pointed out, if I really need to bring the hurt on someone I just nuke them into the ground with magic.
Edit: I should point out that I've been playing a lot lately with Wraiths, and their super dodginess more than makes up for the lack of a shield for spear users. Love me some dodge.
I don't like clubs or hammers. Their initiative is too low. I want to attack first and often so my units are usually spears and axes. I even delay archers until I get higher initiative bows and mages even later. Many of my battles only last 1 or 2 rounds.
The Rush trait is very important for spears and axes to allow positioning. My champions without Rush are noticeably less useful.
Horses are a priority for achieving speed of attack. After I get them, no more foot soldiers are built.
Clubs are flat out vastly superior. It doesn't matter that the Spears have an initiative advantage and a bit of armor pen. The fact that units become less effective/threatening once damaged means the front-loaded damage (alpha) is far better than attacking more frequently for less damage, even if the average rate of damage were equal (which doesn't appear to be the case). Missing a turn doesn't matter when whatever is going to attack you back is already dead or severely injured.
The only exception to this is perhaps when fighting large enemies with tons of armor, but where a spear unit might end up doing more damage, the lack of shield often makes it one-shottable whereas a club unit would survive to be healed. Sadly, the initiative advantage of spearmen is counter-acted by the fact that they're too fragile to be slug in the front line and thus have to hang back and later poke at distracted enemies. At least swords seem to have a place. The initiative advantage and ability to use a shield allows those units to function as tanks (especially with counter-attack). I might put 1 spearmen unit in my army for flavor just to stab at large targets, but eventually even these are replaced by mage units who are typically better vs armor.
Such confidence!
Well, yes. Which is why spears (which will generally strike first) are better than they initially appear. As I noted in my previous post, it is not actually obvious that they are worse in a straight slugging match with clubs, as long as the spears strike first. But the main reason I like them is that they actually get involved in the action, whereas clubs are generally one or two moves behind.
Clubs may be a move behind, but it would probably take spears 3-4 turns to match the clubs' first attack. The front-loadable damage, combined with the added survivability of the shield, makes it no contest.
There are fights where spears are better or helpful, but if I'd want clubs over spears the vast majority of the time.
Spears used to do more damage, but they were nerfed.
Swords used to do more damage (with counterattack), but they were nerfed.
Predictably, some think clubs are clearly superior (though that is debatable). If Stardock agrees with you (I see no evidence that they do) their solution will be to nerf clubs.
At which point I imagine we'll be flooded with posts about how axes are OP.
Clubs are game-breakingly good in early-mid game. With proper manoeuvering, your first strike vs the enemy army is usually crippling. The idea of Crushing Blow, as far as I'm concerned, is very good. Allowing you to burst for front-loaded damage allows interesting strategies vs the AI. Clubs, however, already do significantly more damage per normal attack in the first place, so with Crushing Blow you're essentially doing 3-4 attacks worth of spear damage in one turn for the price of a one-turn cooldown, which is too much value to ignore. Put the armor bonus of a shield on there and the only place for spears is for impaling multiple weak opponents (axes would be better for that) or for killing higher armor targets (which mages are usually better for).
I like the mechanics behind the different weapon types, but I think the numbers need significant reworking. I haven't been playing long but the damage values for swords make them pretty unexciting compared to every other type (even with counter-attack) and clubs/hammers have way too much of an advantage as it stands. Putting clubs/spears/swords/axes all with more similar normal attack values would make more sense to me, but each would have its own flavor and place in terms of gameplay. Spears have the armor pen and immunity to counter along with impale, swords have counter-attack, clubs can front-load damage and axes can cleave.
One idea that would help swords is to have some sort of "taunt" ability to make sure that unit was actually getting attacked and thus able to use its counter. As it is, if you have multiple units in melee range, it seems moderately random which unit t he AI attacks. If anything, it goes for (and this is smart) units with higher attack and lower defense, such as axemen, or militia, whereas sword-users are generally less damage and higher defense, and thus lower-priority targets.
Otherwise you'd have to field armies of nothing but sword units to make sure they get some counters in, and I don't think that's what the devs had in mind...
That being said, high initiative and defense are certainly worthwhile on their own, but the sword's special ability being mostly negated is disappointing. I've also noticed that counterattack doesn't seem to activate when the attacker misses (defender dodges), which seems wrong.
The problem with swords and counter-attack are several-fold. First, they do the lowest damage of any weapon in the game, which sucks by itself. Second, the numbers for Counter-attack just suck. The damage for swords is already bad, so giving counter-attack only a fraction of regular damage means you're swinging back for a fraction of already sucky damage. On top of all of this, however, is the fact that counter-attack triggers unreliably and only once per enemy turn, and you can't even choose where to direct the damage. Essentially your hammer unit causes significantly more damage and does it more reliably and to targets of your choosing, and it's no less tanky than a swords unit.
If the damage for counter-attack is going to be as low as it is right now, it should be able to proc numerous or unlimited times per turn, otherwise it'll never be worth it. Either that or give swords better damage values overall. From my experience swords were by far the worst weapon to equip your units with. At least spears and axes have their niches. Swords are just bad.
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