What happened to Global Warming?
When I put my first above ground pool in around the late 90's we were able to open it in April and start swimming in May.
Now my pool is just opened and still not warm enough to swim in
I'd like some global warming back...
I have long since given up on the cerebral qualities pertaining to contradiction and am only here ensuring the niceties are maintained ...
I found this critique with minimal effort.
http://jadehawks.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/forbes-is-lying-about-a-study-to-promote-agw-denialism/
So there’s this Op/Ed piece titled “Peer-Reviewed Survey Finds Majority Of Scientists Skeptical Of Global Warming Crisis” in Forbes right now. It refers to this paper in Organizational Studies, a journal largely focusing on the sociology of organizations.
The Op/Ed piece is blatantly lying about the paper.
Let’s start with the title. For one, the paper is not a survey. Surveys are quantitative, and therefore strive for large and representative samples; this paper was a qualitative study, with a sample selected on the basis of usefulness to the topic, not because it’s representative. Secondly, the author of that Op/Ed piece, James Taylor, claims that a “majority of scientists” is skeptical of AGW. Except that the paper doesn’t study “scientists”; it studies “professional experts in petroleum and related industries”*, and refers to them collectively as “professionals”, not “scientists” like Taylor does. Plus, right in the introduction the paper explains that “there is a broad consensus among climate scientists” about AGW being real.
It is the summary. The fourth part of the report will becoming out in 2014. If you read the pdf, you should have seen that.
You are factually inaccurate in a great many ways, regularly.
A survey of a thousand people is indeed a survey. Surveys are small cross sections of a wider group. There are surveys taken of the national voting base that number less than the one you're trying to pretend doesn't count, and they have margins of error well within the realm of useful.
Direct from Forbes
Direct from the attributed study
It is indeed a survey of engineers and earth scientists. The earth sciences are indeed the correct fields to be polling, as they're the ones everyone points to for their consensus. They are indeed professionals in the oil industry, but that's because outside of academia, that's where earth scientists are working by and large. Both are true, Forbes did not even imply anything different. Your article claiming they lied is exactly that, a lie.
Also, it's an OP/ED piece, which means it's actually a contrarian article on Forbes, not the work of their own editor. Even if it was a lie, the idiot calling them on it does the same thing they're called on, misleading with the title.
I suggest you find better sources for information. Most of what you've posted is less useful than the Oregon Petition you've been deriding. Remember, you don't bother looking at articles that don't have a proper byline. You shouldn't be reading something from a "Jadehawk" anyway since they obviously don't stand behind their work...
You were saying? (this is from the ACTUAL paper that the "author" in Forbes used. Go and check for yourself).
Oh and by the way...you should consider YOUR sources. There is probably a GOOD reason why this study was conducted with Canadian "scientists"... http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/16/canadian-scientists-government-censorship
To answer this question, we consider how climate change is constructed by professional engineers and geoscientists in the province of Alberta, Canada. We begin by describing our research context and the strategic importance of Canadian oil worldwide, to the economy of Canada, and the province of Alberta. We outline the influential role of engineers and geoscientists within this industry, which allows them to affect national and international policy. Then, we describe our research design and methods.
The petroleum industry in Alberta is an instrumental case (Stake, 1995; per Greenwood & Suddaby, 2006) to examine the debate of climate change expertise given the economic centrality of the oil industry, the oil sands as a controversial energy source, and the dominance of professionals that gives them a privileged position as influencers of government and industry policy. Frames are always socio-historical constructions and, thus, time and location play an important role.
The petroleum industry is the largest single private sector investor in Canada (~CAD 35 billion in 2009) (CAPP, 2009) and it is projected that the petroleum industry will contribute CAD 1.7 trillion to Canada’s GDP and create over 456,000 jobs over the next 25 years (Canadian Energy Research Institute, 2009). There are 540 multinational integrated, midsized, and junior oil and gas companies in Canada (nearly all headquartered in Calgary, Alberta) with operations worldwide. Further, Canada’s oil reserves are considered to be a strategic resource (see Figure 1) with most reserves in Alberta and the oil sands. Given the relative political stability of Canada as a source of oil to the US, the Alberta oil sands are undergoing a CAD 250 billion expansion (AII, 2008).
World Oil Reserves by Country
Yet, the petroleum industry is particularly divisive and controversial. The oil industry in Alberta (especially the oil sands) is the largest source of greenhouse gases (GHG), in a country with rapidly growing (not decreasing) emissions. Overall, oil and gas production, transmission, and refining contribute 24% of Canada’s emissions. Defendants note, however, when compared to other GHG sources in North America, emissions from the oil sands are equivalent to the emissions from coal-fired power in South Carolina, USA. As a country, Canada’s GHG emissions have increased 26.6% from 1990 to 2004, rather than decreased by 6% as required by the Kyoto Protocol. In 2006, when Stephen Harper was elected as the first Prime Minister of Canada from Calgary, his Conservative minority government removed the Government of Canada’s climate change website. And, to reverse the criticism of a previous government’s choice to sign the Kyoto Protocol, in December 2011 Canada formally withdrew from the international treaty to avoid the estimated CAD 14 billion in penalties (CBC, 2011).
With more than 15% higher GHG emissions than conventional oil, the oil sands have been categorized as particularly ‘dirty’ oil (Nikiforuk, 2008) and have become the ‘whipping boy of European and American green groups fighting the “Great Climate War”’ (Sweeney, 2010, p. 160). Al Gore builds on this by stating that the ‘oil sands threaten our survival as a species’ and ‘Junkies find veins in the toes when the ones in their arms and their legs collapse. Developing tar sands and coal shale is the equivalent’ (Sweeney, 2010, p. 168). While petroleum companies have claimed that they are adopting environmental initiatives (CAPP, 2007), critics question the veracity of those claims (Dyer, Moorhouse, Laufenberg & Powell, 2008; Nikiforuk, 2006). Yet, in 2008, Alberta became the first jurisdiction in North America to promulgate an offset system for GHG emissions. Further, provincial regulations require that companies must have their annual GHG emissions audited by either a professional engineer or a chartered accountant.
Professional engineers and geoscientists are particularly influential in this industry. Alberta has the highest per capita of professional engineers and geoscientists (a category of licensure that includes climatologists, geologists, glaciologists, meteorologists, geophysicists, and paleo-climatologists) in North America. And the petroleum industry – through oil and gas companies, related industrial services, and consulting services – is the largest employer, either directly or indirectly, of professional engineers and geoscientists in Alberta. In oil and gas companies, almost half of CEOs are professional engineers or geoscientists and most senior management teams and boards have at least one licensed professional. Within Alberta’s Energy Resource Conservation Board (ERCB) – the quasi-judicial government agency that regulates petroleum development – five of the eight board members are professional engineers or geoscientists. Within the Albertan government, prominent engineers and geoscientists act as Deputy Ministers, Assistant Deputy Ministers, and as Chief of Staff. Further, within the broader field, they also act as advisors to government through think tanks such as the Canada West Foundation, task forces struck to review regulation, and environmental activist organizations such as the Pembina Institute. These professionals and their organizations are regulated by a single professional self-regulatory authority –APEGA1 – through the setting of education and experience standards for licensure, practice standards, a code of ethics, and a complaint and discipline process for anyone practicing in an unskilled or unethical manner. Given the dependence on the petroleum industry and relative homogeneity in licensure requirements, we might expect a consensus of opinion. Yet, perhaps surprisingly, the debate of the causes of climate change is particularly virulent among them."
PS-The difference between "Jadehawk" and "Tommy" (or whatever his name ia/was) is that Jade is explaining why the author from Forbes is wrong and not claiming to have done a meta analysis of a meta analysis of another study. I would think the difference is plainly obvious.
PPS-IF we are going to starting ranking the types of scientists who should or should not be speaking on CLIMATE change, I would think that the atmospheric scientists' opinions should have greater weight then that of geoscientists. However, I am not willing to claim that there should be a ranking based on degree type or profession, because I do not know enough about the subject to make such a distinction, although apparently you do.
Um what?
Astronomers think about stuff like this all the time. Many astronomers study other planets, including their atmospheres. This includes questions like "Why did Venus experience a runaway Greenhouse effect (and therefore catastrophic global warming)?" and "Why is Mars's atmosphere so thin, but relatively abundant in CO2?". It turns out that experts like this have a whole lot to say about the greenhouse effect and climate change here on Earth. After all, if you understand climate change on other planets, you can understand climate change here on Earth pretty well too.
You are using the Chewbacca defense:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense
I point out all the national academies of science and the IPCC agree with me, and you attempt to "debunk" it with a non sequitur. I don't reference the study that you are going after, so attempting to debunk it is completely and totally irrelevant.
You haven't even attempted to address the arguments that I am using to support my argument because you can't deal with them. But you keep raising a point that you think you can deal with even though I've never even tried to use that one.
Read what you post.
I don't know why you're under the impression that you have a point buried somewhere in this idiocy, but you don't. This is a study of engineers and earth scientists, many of whom will belong to those associations you were touting a couple pages back, and how despite working for the devil, some of them actually support AGW! The authors are extremely biased in favor of AGW.
A guy writing OP/ED's on Forbes sees this, and writes an article stating that a study shows earth scientists aren't convinced of AGW. The author is extremely biased against AGW and leaves out a little detail of them being employed by the petroleum industry. A lie by omission at best, and only to those too fucking lazy to check the title on the source linked in the article. That subset is also a fifth of the total population of geoscientists. That two thirds of them don't fall in line with the AGW fear mongering would indeed disprove the claims of better than 90% support among those same scientists. But hey, now we're getting into math, and you really need to master reading before you take on fractions.
Ignoring that you're telling me to consider my sources when I'm not the one bringing this up, government scientists are employed by the government. As of today, Canada is yet to become a fascist or communist state where industry is run by the government.
Ignorance can be cured. This is commonly done by reading, as luck would have it...
Edit: WTF? It's not in quotes...
Apparently there's a magic close quotation trailing the end of this post...
If you cannot see how using geoscientists in Canada, a country who's Premier has muzzled scientists on certain issues, including global warming, in a territory (Alberta) that is dominated by the OIL industry doesn't strike you as a FLAWED sample...I suppose there is nothing to be done for you and I do not know if that can be cured.
My mistake. I didn't explicitly point out that government doesn't employ scientists employed by the petroleum industry, and thus a gag order on government employed scientists wouldn't apply to respondents of a survey specifically targeting petroleum industry employees.
May you continue to take great pride in being hilariously wrong even when it doesn't suit your purposes.
No no. Not at all. It is I who must apologize.
You see, I would have thought it was VERY obvious that when survey is conducted in a country with a government where what scientists say to journalists or even to their colleagues is regulated AND when the sample of scientists that are studied are working for the oil companies that are based and have to be licensed by government approved associations in that very same country where scientific communication is regulated and stifled, that the conclusions of how much credence to give that study would at the very least would be obvious.
I obviously was wrong.
DOH. I forgot to paste this...
From the APGEA website-
"Self-Regulating Professions
ON BEHALF OF MEMBERS, APEGA ESTABLISHES STANDARDS AND CODES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT AND ETHICS
Due to the huge impact that our professions have on Alberta, and the trust that society must place in our judgment, engineering and geoscience are regulated professions. Under the Engineering and Geoscience Professions Act, you must be licensed to practice engineering or geoscience in Alberta.
While the provincial government remains ultimately responsible for public safety and well-being, it entrusts this responsibility to professional self-regulatory associations such as APEGA."
More-"FUNDAMENTAL LEGISLATIVE FUNCTIONSThrough government legislation, under which APEGA was created, the Association is charged withthe responsibilities of registration, discipline, enforcement and the setting of practice standards."
www.apega.ca/Applicants/pdf/General/APEGGARoleChallenge.pdf
Jafo, you are awesome.
Firstly, he is not Premier, he is the Prime Minister of Canada
Secondly, he has requested that "government" scientists clear any reports they have with the Prime Ministers Office prior to speaking with journalists. These so-called scientists have their own agenda and were intentionally making it difficult for the government.
Thirdly, the Kyota Protocol was signed by Prime Minister Chretien knowing he had no intent on implementing the requirements. He and his party had 10 years to do something but didn't.
The news media here in Canada for the most part also have their agendas and cannot be trusted to report facts.
Thanks for correcting me. I have a friend in Canada and I think she would bonk me over the head for making such an error.
Why should ANY scientist have to clear something with a government official first? What possible reason would the government official have to do that? If the scientist is engaged in fraudulent research/fixing data, etc, s/he will be found out by the scientific process (any experiment should be repeatable). So why does it need to be cleared?
Everyone has agendas. Some have an agenda for getting the truth out. Others have an agenda of shaping information delivery to suit their goals/bank accounts/power structure.
Because AGW is an activist agenda with the sole purpose of manipulating public policy for greed, stupidity, ______.
It's my birthday...so after watching this endless, repetitive, pointless discussion wind itself around and around the tree of ridiculousness I'm going to point out the following:
Not one person on this (or any other) argumentative, redundant and over opined thread on the internet has EVER convinced anyone of anything.
This is nothing but a lot of wasted effort by both sides neither of which has any corner on "facts" or "truth". Even if you quote facts today, tomorrow someone will come out with new ones.
So why do't you all just pack it in and let this idiocy die? No one here or in government or commerce knows (or cares) about the existence of this contentious thread.
And...no one's going to do one blessed thing about it anyway.
My thanks to those who wish to give me a wonderful birthday present: The demise of this thread.
As I said...the KEY to science is repeatability. If it a fraud, then show that the model as a whole, is wrong (ie-don't cherry pick).
Did you read the IPCC's summary? Somehow I doubt you did.
Plus, the deniers have NO reason to deny, right? Right? Riiiiiiiight...
Hey at least when we grow old and grey, we can sit around and complain that "we knew it all the way back then, but the damn fools wouldn't listen!"
No reason to go hall-monitor on the thread, Doc, though you are more than entitled to your opinion. Nobody's forced to read this crap if they don't want to. If the T's of S aren't violated, though, let it roll.
This
Wrong.
Ridiculous thread for the reasons cited. Hall monitor? Wrong again. You don't relate to the comment...only your conception (incorrect) of what I do.
Easy, killer. No offense, but you told us what you want us to do. Which is fine, but unnecessary (kinda like this thread?).
Happy Birthday, by the way!
What I was saying was this (as a regular member):
and thanks.
And best wishes for many more!
Birthdays, that is... not whacks.
Took you long enough to notice....
Back OT .... remember, folks...the wholesale reposting of slabs of articles from a third party are not covered by 'fair use' but can be construed as [plagiarism] in violation of the Author's copyright.
Quoting of 'exerpts' combined with links is the PC way ....
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