This might seem ungrateful but I think the current experiment getting rid of encumbrance is a wrong turn in the game's development.
1) Encumbrance is a very familiar concept from other similar games
2) Initiative is not so intuitive to get your head around.
3) Removing encumbrance seems like a step in the direction of dumbing down. I associate Stardock with complex grown up games,
4) Encumbrance is logical, the more weight you carry the less agile you are. Agility isn't in this game. Initiative is, So encumbrance affects initiative. Initiative is the ability to begin and follow through an attack (in this game's context). The big flaw in the old removed encumbrance system was that the implementation was too clumsy - a few big big changes in intiative when certain levels of encumbrance were reached. The changes should have looked into this and smoothed things out a bit rather than removing encumbrance altogether.
5) Realism. I hate to use the word word "realism" when talking about a magical fanstasy game - perhaps I mean intuitive understanding. Everyone understands the implications of carrying loads of stuff and wielding heavy weapons while dressed in heavy armor. Think what might happen if you were wandering in real life through a woody area. A huge wolf attacks you. You have three choices, 1) Run away - you may not make it and be forced to fight or you may successfully get away. The game does not offer a comparable choice in combat. 2) Decide to fight but take a second or so to dump bags, backpacks, surplus weapons and equipent and objects - then fight the wolf and hopefully win in a weight optimal configuration 3) Decide to fight but go straight in carrying all that massively heavy baggage - after all the wolf might eat you before you get a chance to shed all that stuff. Now, if walking through that same woody glade you saw the wolf first you have a choice 1) Go straight in and attack while bogged down with all your junk. 2) Drop your junk, check your weapons and armor, tighten the buckles, sharpen the sword and when ready go for the wolf. Finally you wouldn't really be walking through that woody glade in full battle armor and ready for battle. You would be in comfortable day wear most of the time, carrying armor and weapons in a backpack of some kind. You would only be battle-ready when expecting trouble.
So I am saying there is a TOTAL or NON-COMBAT encumbrance, and an optimal BATTLE-READY encumbrance. In the first round of a combat (or even in subsequent rounds) there is a once only choice about whether to wade in and fight or shed some weight and get into battle gear to be able to fight better but maybe take some uncontested damage whilst doing so. In combat there should be a “run away” option – success depending partly on weight carried. Finally and most important the actual mechanic of how weight affects the ability to respond in a fight (initiative) really needs some work.
6) I didn’t like encumbrance as it used to be in this game before patch 0.80 but I really hate the fact it has been taken out.
A very well written post with lots of good reasons for bringing back encumbrance and detailed explanations about why it's good. I congratulate you for it.
If you hadn't previously played WoM/FE with encumbrance and were just starting to play LH then would you notice the absence of encumbrance? I don't think you would.
That isn't a compelling argument but it indicates it isn't a critical part of this sort of game. So then the question is whether encumbrance adds enough interesting choices to outweigh the extra complexity. I'm undecided on this but I haven't seen a really compelling argument for reinstating it yet.
My issue with removing it is all the extra work it creates.. which is time and effort that could have gone towards other things, like new stuff, fixing bugs etc.
If removing it is clearly making the game "better" then the effort is worth it, but i'm not convinced that is the case.
Removing encumbrance has made troop design more straightforward, and hero equipment easier to figure out. The new initiative penalties on heavier armor are a better way of signifying what encumbrance was put in place to do, and is more intuitive. There are a few things that need to be smoothed out (strength/muscle traits, rusty plate armor, horses vs. wargs) but those issues are easier to deal with than redesigning the entire encumbrance system.
The above counter-points are why I've suggested a two-track approach, having one system for troops, one for heroes.
Streamlining troops isn't the end of the world. Champions you have more attachment towards, so having more details is necessary, plus with champions, there are a host of other issues that have popped up from removing encumbrance that are unfun or quests will need to be reworked.
I agree. Derek, please seriously consider, as you may be doing already!
I don't understand this. Are you seriously playing the game and going "Man, I wish I had encumbrance to make it so I couldn't carry this shield I found unless I take off my boots!" Because, realism! (Speaking of realism, if you can't lift an axe, sitting on a horse is not going to change that!)
Encumbrance on champions sucked just as much (if not more) as encumbrance on units.
I think getting rid of encumbrance was a brilliant move. They need to put in systems to make, for example, dual-wielding gigantic axes have a penalty (to init and accuracy, I would imagine).
I try to count.
Do I like encumbrance? Yes, its good for reality. No, most my heroes need many tweaks to carry equipment.
Is it good for AI to remove encumbrance? Yes!!!
Encumbrance should be removed.
This is a fair point. If the AI couldn't handle the encumbrance mechanic, I'd sooner have smart AI without encumbrance than dumb AI with it.
Question: Could a simplier version of encumbrance be implemented such that the AI can handle it?
Maybe have the following:
Nice simple system that gives flexability to the player to be creative in how to suit up his heroes, yet simple enough to allow the AI to easily pick without hampering itself by lack of options or always picking the same low encumbrance equipment.
Thoughts? Comments?
Is something like this even moddable? (so that if LH isn't changed, at the very least it can be incorporated?)
Removing game mechanics just because the AI can't handle them is stupid; a much better solution would be to improve the AI instead.
An ideal sentiment from a gamer perspective, but not a realistic one from a developer perspective.
Regardless of the AI, I really don't understand this almost fanatical attachment to the encumbrance system. It always felt like a provisional arrangement at best that never really worked. Thinking back now, I don't really see how it brought any meaningful depth to character management, just some hassle and staring at a singular weight counter.
I do however understand that some people mourn its removal because the new system feels shallower in comparison at the moment, simply due to the fact that all items and their properties have to be remade as to adopt sensible inherent limitations. If the deed is done, I think the new system should be better not just for the sake of the AI, but for the sake of the player, too.
I really liked the encumbrance system. It really made me think about my unit designs and how to optimize them and avoid unnecessary initiative loss. The only thing I would have changed with it is to break it into more chunks rather than just having Light (no effect), Medium (-2), and Heavy (-4).
Quoting Mistwraithe, reply 2 If you hadn't previously played WoM/FE with encumbrance and were just starting to play LH then would you notice the absence of encumbrance? I don't think you would.FE incorporates role-playing elements and encumbrance is a feature found in many RPGs, so it's quite possible that I'd notice the absence of it.
I think the OP makes some pretty valid points. The system would have benefitted from some fine-tuning, for instance by as Trifler500 suggested introducing several more encumbrance tresholds. However, I'm not at all convinced that getting rid of the system was a good idea, but I guess time will tell.
Yes, it has seen to be a worrying pattern - for something that has been implemented, without being changed much, is discarded without being tweaked. The old case of the baby out with the bathwater...
Who would have ever thought it would come to a thread like this. Encumbrance is gone, it won't return as there's no proper use for it, it only complicates all kinds of things. Life's much easier without it. Please leave it at that.
I'd probably go this route r.e. encumberance penalties (using -4/100 as the baseline).
0-30% no penalty
30-50% -1
50-70% -2
70-85% -3
86-100% -4
101-110 -5
111-118 -6
119-125 -7
additional -1 per 5% over 125.
BTW, penalties should apply to move rate, as well as accuracy and dodge (so if you are 100% encumbered, you move at 60% your normal rate). This could mean that a 136% encumberance means no moving whatsoever, or you could always allow a move rate of 1 square/turn, depending on how you feel about this.
This way, if the AI overloads, they can still move and fight.
There are a lot of military concepts that could be modeled that would be more interesting than encumbrance. What about morale or supplies? Why does encumbrance have to be the one burden concept that is so hard to let go? I remember when this game had strength, dexterity, and constitution ect. for each unit, but it seemed to kick up less of a fuss when it was cast away, or maybe I wasn't paying as much attention to the forums then.
Of course at this point I wouldn't want to add any of them, just fine tune everything that is there, but I am with good riddance crowd in general about encumbrance. I never thought it was very interesting to begin with, and just another bag of numbers that affect initiative when they can just get rid of the numbers and affect initiative directly.
Well, I've played around some with the game now that encumbrance is gone. I really tried to like it, but it really all seems pointlessly simplistic now. There's no reason not to just have one armor piece and that's it, like every other game out there. There's nothing to tweak (and I love to tweak designs). I can't trade a piece of armor for less of an initiative penalty, nor is there a new system to allow similar tweaking. We should have a system that encourages us to try chainmail head and torso pieces with leather limbs, or platemail head and torso with chainmail limbs, and not always just use all chain or all plate. Games that pretend to have unit design, but really all new tech is always better, really don't appeal to me, and that's what we're looking at now. I really hope they change it because this kind of simplicity effectively kills the game for me.
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