Making a thread to pull the information out of the disparate threads which have a different topic, but happen to mention swarm.
The swarm mechanic is a nice idea, but it needs some serious balance and limitations applied to it.
Due to swarm, a unit can attack up to 8-10 times in an initiative round now, thereby removing the 'wear heavy armour and do less overall damage' balancing act that FE had.
With swarm, units combine their attacks when (all assume the units are next to each other):
- a normal strike from an ally is taken
- a counter attack from an ally is taken
- when they themselves can attack
- when they are dazed or otherwise prevented from attacking
edit:
To bring up points from the thread -
the design is that swarm reduces the enemy defense (allows more damage), but there is code that shows +attack/ally. Both could be right, but otherwise it still fulfills the above statements.
The damage output from two armies in a line against each other is overly silly. Whomever strikes first is likely the one to win. Also, whomever still has that 1 HP unit still on the line is also gaining excess damage output.
I think the first thing to fix is to remove swarm boosters on counter attacks and when units are dazed/otherwise can't attack for some time. It's the dazed part that is a big issue, as you can rush in a bunch of hammer units, perform crushing blows with each of them, then have a spear/etc unit trigger a swarm attack with each unit that is supposedly dazed.
The likely next step is to trim down the swarm 'extra' damage being given.
I agree that for now when you have two lines of 3 troops facing each other, the guy in the middle of a line gets 'swarmed' though he has two of his own troops protecting his flanks.
I have also situation where i place a summon in the middle of enemy troops and then he 'swarms' all those around him helping any attack from outside; kind of weird that guy who is surrounded still 'swarms' those who surround him.
thanks for the feedback, we are gonna talk about the feedback and mechanics of swarm internally more... and it's not going anywhere, so don't worry as a note for those asking about an icon, that was my initial thought as well, however, when we actually tried it and mocked it up it just simply didn't work as we wanted it to. We will still look to be making it more intuitive though and all the comments help
-Toby
Even if an icon isn't the way to go, cheering, yelling, or w/e would work. The attack animation is deceptive.
After playing a few games i think that the swarm mechanic is amazing, because it adds another tactical element to the combat and it makes bigger armies much more useful. It is now very difficult to fight against an enemy army with a single hero and that is great.
The increased usefulness of bigger armies makes the abilty of the Tarth (+ 3 Initiative and + 3 Attack) less useful, but the other abilities of the race are already very good.
The more I play, the more I am really enjoying swarm as well. It makes combat so much more interesting, having to carefully position units and cover your own units rear's. It also helps in taking down more powerful units but surrounding them, which is really gratifying. I don't think it needs any nerfing at all, as to do so would make it irrelevant. Also, once you get the hang of it, it is not that difficult to figure out what is going on. I think this is just a case of a new mechanic making waves.
I never thought about the Tarth effects... Does their new doublestrike ability (which sounds great, especially if it works with bows) even out their power?
edit: Although dazed or otherwise incapacitated units should definitely not get to take part in a swarm attack. That doesn't make sense.
I have found swarm to an incredibly valuable addition to the game, and definitely don't want it to be removed or just added as a skill. i think it SHOULD be the core of the new battle system.
A few points:
* The AI also has this, it isn't just the player...so it is an even playing field..once the AI is buffed to use it better, though it does pretty well now.
* I agree a dazed, or other incapacitated, unit should not get an attack in the swarm.
* I would be curious how it would play out with a simple change, adding the +1 rule. As long as the attacking team has one more adjacent unit within the 9-square area (attacked unit plus 8 surrounding squares, see diagram below), the you get the swarm bonus.
x x x
x o x
As Kraxis, I use a lot of Fortify in a straight line to counter and create swarm. Three abreast, for example"
As it is, this is dominant, and the only way the AI can (and does) counter this is the shield bash, breaking my line and taking the square, as such
x
However, as you can see, this would put him in a terrible position if I bring my troops up like this:
So the plus 1 rule, in many ways would hurt the use of shield bash. But what if, in that circle above, you placed a defender champion with a sword? hmmm
Anyway, with the +1 rule, if I move three pawns abreast, they can counter with:
o o o
Now, thjere is no swarm unless someone flanks, adding another:
x x x x
Above, the two enemy 'o' on the right side would be swarmed.
I think that alone would make a good system great, by toning it down a litte, but also by adding yet more tactical decision making.
" x x x x
Above, the two enemy 'o' on the right side would be swarmed. "
I would suggest that only the one o on the right side can be swarmed, if we were going that direction vis a vis changing swarm.
I could dig that, would just have to figre out the ruleset for calculating that. Any thoughts?
It could be only a unit that is "uncovered," meaning not having a unit next to it. But then you start looking at angles every which way to figure out who is covering who etc.
I think someone already posted up thread about how it would work.
effectively, if adjacent enemy units > adjacent allied units (plus self), then swarm allowed.
Well, bigger problem is when you have 2 units swarming 10 enemy units in formation
Yes, the new Doublestrike ability is great if the player or the AI designs archers with high accuracy.
Personally, i think swarming is a great idea. But as already mentioned it need some balance. But in my opinion - it need very "delicate" balance. There is no need to change the think heavily. I suggest only to limit a number of damage dealing with swarming. For example - to 20% of additional damage from each "swarming" unit. And be more careful with all kind of bonuses for "swarming". For example, the bonuses of swarming will make difference for swarming for 2 units, but will less effective than the number of "swarming" units will rise up.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
