So the wildlands are currently kind of silly to open. If you've got an army strong enough to kill one of the big bads, you could just as easily take said army and kill all your enemies dead. What's more, if you do decide to kill them, the benefits of doing so are very minor: some resource nodes (which I probably already have plenty of) and some land for settling - and why settle on new land when I can take my enemy's great city that he's so courteously built up for me?
I think the game would be improved if there were different upgrades/units/techs that made your army good at killing big monsters versus killing armies. Sort of like the way the overpower ability makes increasing numbers not the best way to deal with monsters that have it, or the fact that sunder is (literally) useless against armies, whereas it grinds to dust Mr. Grinds Mountains to Dust quite a bit sooner in the game than might have been intended.
There are a couple of ways I could see to do this; probably the best would be to make some "fights monsters" branches on the tech/unit trees, distinct from "fights armies" ones. Or make some mechanical tweaks - for example, say that no matter how much damage a single unit does to a troop, they can't kill more than one member of that troop with a single attack, unless they've got a special ability that says otherwise. Such a change would instantaneously make a single skilled and heavily armored knight a poor match for an army of peasants, but an excellent match for a dragon (who, in such a system, would probably deal area damage and one-hit-KO the army of peasants). You'd then be faced with the dilemma of building up a capable monster-hunting party or an army-fighting one. And voila, an interesting choice is created.
I like this idea. Probably too late for the Elemental series though.
I think this idea could be implemented if the Dragon Slayer trait (+ 10 attack against dragons) is replaced by the Hunter trait (+ 10 attack against non-humanoids) and that trait is avaible to units, too.
Excellent suggestion!
+1
While I really do like your suggestions, I don't think the changes you suggest are likely to be implemented in the base game by the developers. Too much recoding required.
As for the central issue you are addressing in the game balance for the wildlands, I think the key here is that the time and investment is no where near the rewards. Other than farming xp after you've won the game, why invest troops and energy into clearing a dangerous section of the map for some stupid +50% fire resist bonus to troops DEFENDING some random city in your empire?
My solution was this: I changed the trophy bonuses. This is merely an EXAMPLE, but I think it addresses the heart of the issue. My bonuses for each wildland trophy are +20% growth in selected city (up from 10%) AND some bonus to troops defending AND BUILT. i.e. units built in a city with a particular trophy might get +25% fire resist, or +25% cold resist, or +def, or +att. This has the surprising effect of making you say, "Ah crap" if an AI clears a wildland, which I think is a good indicator.
While I like your solution better, mine is much easier to implement and addresses the key problem. Risk vs Reward. Stardock has already shrugged off all of the balance changes I've suggested to the game, so I don't see MY solution being implemented either, but at least it can be fixed on the user's end for those able to use / embrace modding.
Wildlands benefits should be much stronger. Defeating a wildland guardian should pretty much win you the game, even if you are last in the power ranking. That should have been the alternate method of victory.
The way I see it, champions sort of function primarily as monster killers, whereas normal, trained units are better for fighting other trained units. Champions can get really good dodge and armor and, obviously, get access to developing talents to make them tougher or more evasive, and as individuals, don't suffer from the overpower trait or a severe reduction in attack capability as they take damage.
I agree completely, though, Wildlands are far too difficult for the reward they offer in relation to the stage the game must be in for you to have conquered one.
While I agree that there is a problem here your solution is flawed. It would simply increase the cost of taking Wildlands as you would then have tons of useless troops that would be no good for fighting other players.
Every Wildland can't be Wearloga though. I would like to see Wildlands serve dual purposes. Firstly they should be monster preserves that stop expansion and contain several levels of monsters that respawn endlessly. That way the entire map doesn't get cleared early on. Instead of being all or nothing Wildlands should scale so that you can explore them all game. When you actually kill a Lord there should be an alert to everyone else and a reward. While the rewards shouldn't be game winners they should be more significant. At that point of the game you don't need more territory or resources. The chief reward should be powerful artifacts, monsters, and spells that would give you the ability to challenge your neighbors and change the flow of the game. I would almost say that most Wildlands should never clear even if the Lord dies as it is largely pointless and homogenizes the map.
To a certain extent the problem is that the AI isn't providing a strong enough mid/late game challenge. If the AI was keeping up with your growth and providing a strong mid/late game challenge AND the wildlands offered sufficient reward (most don't IMO) then it would make sense for the player to take out the wildlands in the hopes of getting an edge from the rewards.
So you could try upping your difficultly levels although that makes the AI stronger without making it smarter. Unfortunately I find I have to set the difficulty very high to be a challenge and at the point the challenge is mostly how incredibly tough/numerous their armies which gets boring quickly (for me anyway). Your mileage may vary though!
Imo, there should be an RPG element to the conquering of the wildlands.
Each sovereign should have an RPG storyline written out, with "good" and "bad" path to follow; the user gets to choose which. This RPG path would allow for a loose story to be told throughout the sandbox mode; from what heros you attract to your cause, to which wildlands you need to go and explore, to which side your forces will commit to. Also along the way you'll be able to gather important pieces for the building of the towers. Than, and only than would the story line converge into being able to complete the Spell of Mastery. (Yes, I'm still calling it that.)
At the very least, defeating a wildland should grant the user enough fame to call another hero.
I too have never really liked the Wildlands though I have to concede that I never really understood why until I read the OP. I also think the OP is correct that Wildlands need to provide a different kind of challenge and provide a different reward though I need to ponder that a bit to decide what is appropriate. I tend to like the idea of them being basically unconquerable and providing constant respawns with perhaps some kind of epic quest inside them.
Indeed, Wildlands are a bit disappointing at times. Especially because I love the idea behind them.
There are some additional ones in the map pack (I think) that have a wider span of difficulty. The darkling city for example. It is realitively easy to take and provides an interesting bonus, long before the game is decided.
I would love to see more of that and a more diverse set of rewards for clearing them.
Ever respawning Monsters would be a nice thing as well, but it would be incredible hard to balance. A constant stream of XP for the armies in the area is a bonus in itself.
So, what could be done about it?
So, for the realistic part:
Provide alternative means of conquering the wildlands.
Nodes:
Add three to four nodes in the wildlands. All guarded by a stationary monster army, far less powerful than the main guardian. Clear all the nodes, clear the wildland.
Economic domination:
Add a shrine to every wildland. Go there, sacrifice a hefty amount of ressources, clear the wildland.
Territory domination:
Have a number of outposts at the border of the wildland and build a dedicated wildland domination building in all of them (has to be added), clear the wildland.
What happens to the guardian?
Either make it stationary or have it disappear alltogether. I'm not really in the mood to talk about that though
Read more on something that is far less likely to happen
Unrealistic "that would be so awesome option":
Capture and hold type:
Generally small wildlands with a structure in the center, providing a significant bonus similar to the current ressources, just on steroids. I'm thinking of a +4 shard, +3 Material or +15 Gildar thingy.
The mechanic behind those would be, that an army has to be positioned on the ressource to hold it. As long as this condition is met, the bonus of the ressource is provided to the nearest town or the empire at whole. As long as the ressource is occupied, monster armies spawn on a semi regular basis and try to liberate the ressource. Those armies don't provide heavily reduced XP and never leave the wildland.
Dungeon type:
Generally medium to large maze like wildlands, filled with loot and higly active, but clearable monster spawners. Boss type creature at the end or center providing an item, ressources, a hero or a combination of these when slain.
Raiding type:
Generally small areas that have respawnable monster spawners which in turn spawn monsters that roam the general area around the wildland, rading and attacking what they find. Clearable... for a while (Until the spawners respawn)
These make the area around them a dangerous place to dwell.
Optional: A ressource intensive way to clear them, possibly unlocked by a tech.
Armies to keep them at bay, while you gather the ressources to seal them.
Clearable Wildlands:
Current type, but with changed rewards. One ot two city spots with a "Holy mother mary of god" quality.
Most of these would need drastic changes or additions to the AI, as well as a lot of work, so it is rather unlikely to come anywhere outside its own expansion.
Very good ideas, Vendetta187.
I agree that the "problem" are not the wildlands themsleves, but the fact that it is an underdeveloped feature. In fact, there is not a problem at all, just a feature which has been a very good idea and now should start its process of refining and improving. Wildlands are one of the unique aspects of FE and should be given some love in order to make them even better.
I love the fact that wildlands make the map so "un-civilization", having places that can't just be settled and adding that big RPG component.
The idea of having several wildland types is a very good one. Jus to name a few, most of which have already been mentioned:
- The ever-spawning monsters type
- The "Oh my good that's an uber-city square with 10 metal 10 grain and 10 essence" type.
- The "Ultimate arrifact" type. A wildland guarding an artifact which provides a huge boost to a hero/army, or a not so difficult wildland providing a moderate artifact.
- The "super magic node" type.
- The "rescue a super-hero" type.
- The "gain a tech that cannot be researched" type.
- The "gain a powerfull spell" type
And the possibilities are endless. For example, there could be "growing" wildlands that expand over time so they MUST be cleared. Or they could send monsters outside so that settling close to them would not be safe.
Supported
I think the key point is, that wildlands need to be clearable sooner in the game and that the rewards are not of the type of making someone incredible strong just so much stronger.
Having methods that require a strategic dedication to clearing them instead of raw power is the key to make them interesting in their current state.
But it will most likely be a considerable amount of work to teach the AI to use such more complex approaches effectively.
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