After we complete upcoming expansion pack for Elemental: Fallen Enchantress (which we expect to announce NEXT WEEK) we have to do some hard thinking. Specifically, what do we do next? After some trials and tribulations we’ve put together what is, in effect, a Master of Magic style engine (and before someone flips out, I’m not saying FE is just like MOM, I am saying that at this stage, our *game engine* is finally capable of actually making that game which is obviously was not capable of in 2010).
But first, let’s look at the history…
Once upon a time…
After Galactic Civilizations II I wanted to do a fantasy strategy game. I wrote up a brief treatment and had our lead artist draw a mockup of what it should look like:
Basically, I wanted Master of Magic with updated graphics and multiplayer.
During this time, Stardock had the opportunity to publish two games – Sins of a Solar Empire and Demigod. Two opportunities we couldn’t pass up. Meanwhile, Impulse was starting to really take off too.
Now, we’re a small company. REALLY small. People are always shocked at how tiny Stardock is. We might possibly be the oldest independent game studio left (20 years old this year) that still regularly produces new games but the entire enterprise is less than 60 people and that includes our main business – consumer software (Multiplicity, Start8, WindowBlinds, Fences, etc.).
What that meant, back in 2008 is that the team that made Galactic Civilizations had to be spread out to help out on Sins, Demigod and Impulse. To do Elemental, we hired up.
Elemental (and at this point, it was just called Elemental) was going to be a pretty straight forward game. Build cities, capture shards, learn magic, research tech and conquer the world.
Now, Stardock’s game studio didn’t run like a normal game studio. That is, there was really no such thing as a producer or a designer. You either coded or you did art. We had titles but they had no real meaning. Design was handled by the person who was implementing an “area” of the game (for example, GalCiv II did not have a visual tactical battle display in its design, the person who was assigned to code “resolution outcome” wrote that).
And we had a lot of ideas. Why stop with Master of Magic’s design elements when you can also throw in Magic the Gathering concepts, Total War, Civilization IV, Ultima, etc.
Slowly, things began to morph as people had more and more ideas get presented.
The spell system got more sophisticated.
The tactical combat design scope grew.
And the reality was that all this stuff just didn’t mesh together. At one point, we even had underground dungeons.
So when Elemental came out, it was extremely buggy (we had spread ourselves too thin – we had no redundancy) and the individual components just didn’t flow together.
Fall From Heaven
When we looked at what went wrong with Elemental it became clear that we were just wearing too many hats. No one owned the design. No one owned the look of it. No one owned the engine design. We needed to bring someone in who would own the project and enforce their will.
That’s what Kael, the designer of Fall From Heaven was able to do.
Kael (Derek Paxton) didn’t just have great game design skills, he was a senior project manager at Novell.
Originally, we had planned to do two expansion packs:
War of Magic – Fallen Enchantress and War of Magic – Forge of the Overlord. But it was decided that we should do a more ambitious overhaul to the base game and this became Elemental: Fallen Enchantress.
Fallen Enchantress
So with Fallen Enchantress, we ended up with a pretty good fantasy strategy game (if you don’t already have it, GET IT!). We have lots of ideas on how to improve it but the important thing is that we now have a fantasy strategy game engine that is capable of doing whatever type of game we’d like.
And that’s where we’re at. What do we do next? I can tell you one thing, it will not have the word “Elemental” in it. Why? Check this out: [Google Search Results]
That isn’t to say we’d scrap all our work and start over with a brand new design and recreate the millions of dollars in art assets. But it’s not going to be tied to Elemental. But this assumes that our players want us to continue making this style of strategy game at all.
After all, there are some exciting fantasy strategy games in the offing – Age of Wonders 3 I suspect will be announced soon and Eador: Masters of the Broken World looks excellent. Are there enough people who want Stardock to keep making fantasy strategy games of this type to justify that effort?
[Quick aside: What do I mean by “this type of strategy game”?]
Personally, there are two key differentiators in fantasy strategy games that help me define what sub-genre they belong to:
And specifically, the question is: Making fantasy strategy games that involve tactical battles, city building and RPG elements? That’s the niche I think we have here. I don’t think we’ve nailed down the perfect blend yet but that’s what time and experience exist for.
And that is what we’d like to hear from you. Do you like what we’re doing enough to keep Should we continue it forward (and don’t answer “Make Fall From Heaven” its future isn’t tied to this). Also, before someone screams GalCiv III the future of GalCiv is not tied to anything we do here.
Go here to answer:
https://www.elementalgame.com/journals
Discuss in the comments.
I voted to keep evolving FE!
But i would like to make a request,or wish, if you want.
I have that idea in my mind,for some time now.
I think that the races are looking very similar to each other.
Not only because they look like humans.But their weapons and armors too.
There are many beautifull weapon designs that we get as rewards or loot in game.
Some of them they could be used as the deafualt weapons of the races.
For example, the design(not the statistics) of The Shadow Broadsword, it could be used as the default
boadsword of Kraxis or Resoln.
The Sythe of the Void for a Kingdom race,or the Heartseeker too.
A bigger version, it could be their longsword.There are many items like this,that could be used that way.
I think it would add to the visual differences between the races.
Well, I'm for you creating a different race of beings in the line of more fantasy types that come from LOWER EARTH (not middle earth as not to copy Tolkiens stuff ;0) ), Horrible creatures and races of the depths of HELL and beyond (wonder what lies beyond the lowest levels of hell??) I've always wanted to take on the 13 levels of hell itself (something I read there were 13 levels Dante's Painting perhaps???) Maybe something where there's the war going on in the main world and then this invasion like Ghengis Khan in the Middle ages and the main world has to come together to defeat it or they will lose. Really powerful armies of them not some bunch of lvl 1 stuff but a whole stack of powerful denizens of hell and all different types wiping out stack after stacks of the main world. Oh how grand this idea would be.
Why does there have to be a choice? A MoM-style game is going to take at least a year or two to develop even with the exisitng engine- in the interim you could release 1 maybe even 2 expansions for FE.
If there MUST be a choice, I'd say go for the "Mom-style" game. You are absolutely correct that the Elemental name has been totally tarnished, and it's time to move into a new IP.
The things I'd most like to see different between the MoM game and Elemental are:
- No more "create your own troops" - this should be part of an editor, not the game itself. It's a huge distraction. That being said, being able to select "upgrades" or something like that would certainly be fees-able- just not as in-depth as the current system.
- Many races, and not broken down into ideologies. Each race should have unique aspects that only cities of that race can do.
-When you take over a city it needs to track what race is in the city. This was the MOST ANNOYING thing in Elemental - If my Trogs (to use elemental races for an example) take over your human city, the Humans shouldn't instantly become Trogs. If I want to make it a Trog city there should be unrest as I evict the current population. Look at how AoW did this for one possible method - look at Moo2 for another.
- Government types - AoW 3 is doing something like this although I'd like to see something much expanded. If you are a Feudal government you should get certain options - similarly if you choose to be a Republic you should have different things entirely. Governments should evolve and branch out in different directions for even more diversity.
- Non-Magical factions and rulers.
- Better use of the awesome terrain function of the engine. Different races should prefer different terrains.A desert-loving race should have penalties in snow terrain etc.
- Less emphasis on Hero's and more emphasis on troop types.
- Custom Races!!!!!!! This was taken away from Elemental, and was the thing I was most looking forward to.
- More Diversity.... More Diversity.... More diversity.....
- No more Shrines. This was an ill-conceived concept.
- More emphasis on resource collection and control. Look at Civ4 (not 5) for how to best do this.
- Bigger stacks. Less focus on individual untis - All troops should be the same size (makes it easier to "eye" the possible strength of a stack.
- No more sub-races. Humans are Humans. Period. The differences between them should be the chioces made by the player, not something taken from lore.
-Random Empire names
- Neutral races that can conquored to create unique units, improvements, etc.
Wow...there is so much I'd like to add here but if I do my post will be waaaay too long.
AOW3 will be another HOMM+ & Eador (while awesome) is it's own thing. Other than being turn based neither is a direct competitor to FE. There's still room for Civ + RPG + cool stuff.
So, my choice would be either evolve FE or reboot with lessons learned. What FE does well, it does better than MoM.
I also certainly vote for evolving FE and not start over with something else. When you start over with something else you kill the older game much like you did Elemental : War of Magic (nobody is going to play that anymore now that elemetal : Fallen Enchantress is out with much improved everything.
Adding to FE is definitely the way to go like Galactic Civ II with it's "expansions" It's still Galactic Civ II but the expansions make it better.
But, certainly DON'T take Stragers advice on removing the ability to CREATE units as this is one of the things that makes this game great. If you removed it it wouldn't be so great anymore. It's just like being able to design ships in Galciv II and really is the trademark of your games.
I think FE needs to expand into its own identity. It well on its way and is different from any other game in the genre.
FE is going to have some fierce competition if AoW 3 succeeds. Fortunately this game is completely different and easily stands on its own.
My biggest criticism of this game is that it tends toward the bland and not the wow factor. I enjoy the game, but the wow moments are few and far between. I always wanted to experience the game where my character builds himself into a god like being but I also need to have that reinforcement through the spell, item effects, and landscape.
This game could use some landscape set pieces to give it that fantastical air. Civ's could use some gear personality while still allowing customization. The sovereigns need more utility spells to make them very special units that fit the theme of their empires.
This game would make a great steam punk game too.
I am SO glad the tactical combat is getting a major overhaul. I know ages back I made a post about the combat should be more SRPG-like (Final Fantasy Tactics, less-RPG, and that looks to be the direction LH is taking, and I'm glad (although I'm sure nobody read that post, I don't delude myself, I just want it on the record as something I called out over a year ago )I honestly voted for an improvement on War of Magic. I'd love for the family system to be worked on more, more diplomacy, more more more.That being said, I'm certainly down for anything else being set in Elemental.Ages back you said you wanted to make a more party-RPG game set in the Elemental 'verse. Any word on that? That got me REALLY excited.
So that's why Elemental looked like a clump of random features instead of a game with a meaningful gameplay...
I'd like Elemental to feel more... well, Elemental. One of the traits I liked the most in MoM was how the initial choice of the Element(s) was shaping your game experience. In future games/expansions of FE/LH, I'd like to have a player choose his Elemental Allegiance (i.e. element(s) of choice) during character creation, and I'd like this to have a strong impact on the spell levels/elements he can/cannot use, its powers, diplomatic relations, available techs to be researched, the abilities of his units, the way cities are protected, the way shards can be exploited, the use of terrain tiles and so on. There are endless possibilities here...
My 2 cents on the game name...
When the time comes I'd drop the Elemental name altogether and go with War of Magic 2 : Forge of the Overlord (or what have you).
Elemental: War of Magic may not have been well received but Fallen Enchantress and Legendary Heroes have been. It will be perceived by the public as taking what you all have learned from the first one and expansions and moving on to bigger and better things - much as you already sort of did with Fallen Enchantress.
Bottom line for me: All history and variables aside - I prefer the badass game title of War of Magic over the tells me nothing generic moniker Elemental.
One reason why I don't really wish for another expansion to this series is that I think there are limitations right now to the point where an expansion isn't going to make large improvements. I think it would take a sequel in a few years.
The "unannounced" game in development is something I am more excited for- because I feel it can take the great elements that have been developed over the years since War of Magic, and add them to a successful formula. I see much more potential in what that game can do than in an expansion to LH.
Now, a Fallen Enchantress 2/War of Magic 2 in the 2nd half of the decade- I would be interested in that, but Stardock has some games to put out first before that happens.
whether its a possible elemental sequel or a new Fall from Heaven game .... what i would like to see is a Fantasy Turn Based Strategy Title involving actual armies:
Master of Magic, Elemental, Age of Wonders, Eador, Might and Magic ... all those games have in common that battles dont look nor feel like actually battles but rather like minor skirmishes. At most there s some 100 soldiers on the field - if even.
I d really love a fantasy TBS with battles in the scale of the total war titles ... except of course with turnbased combat. a single unit not being 1-6 guys but 100s. a whole battle involving 1000s of soldiers. heroes and mages being part of units rather than single models.
as far as i know there s currently nothing like that ( a possible warhammer total war on the horizon but you never know, maybe CA uses the warhammer licence for a console hack n slash )
i cant be alone in loving the big battles in the LOTR movies or braveheart or or or. why does every fantasy strategy title have to have such a limited scale for combat ? imagine in the LOTR movies the battle for minas tirith would have been be fought between a ranger, 1 dragon, 3 orcs, 3 knights and one elephant .... thats sadly how currently all fantasy TBS roll.
mind you the game doesnt have to look like total war games . i could live with elemental-graphics - heck on a bigger scale they d probably look better than now.
just a pet peeve of mine. other than that i deeply love MoM, Age of Wonders and currently enjoying Legendary Heroes.
You should probably try Kohan: Ahriman's Gift (and the two other Kohan games but from the sounds of it KAG would suit you best). They are true RTS games in that strategy is critical and can make a noticeable difference to success. Much more like turn based strategy in that you can keep your troops alive, heal them up (for free, just need time in supply) and benefit from it, instead of just spitting out endless waves of throw away troops.
In Birthright: Gorgon's Alliance heroes and mages were acting like officers for units in a tactical combat. And you was able to go into adventures with them too. I don't know why this game was so unpopular, maybe because of bugs in early versions? I think it has a nice mix of a global strategy, tactical battles and RPG-like adventures (Doom II engine clone, D&D 2nd edition rules).
Birthright is one of the deepest games I played. I wish someone would remake it.
You were playing a monarch of realm, magic, clerical or merchantile domain and were ruling it by all means necessary. diplomacy and threats as well as adventures were very interesting.
and the battles of course.
Keep pumping out DLC's (techs, magic, creatures, buildings) to fund free patches to LH / Make "The Third Elemental", and...
Embrace what makes the Elemental games unique -
Flesh out the city-building aspect, by introducing building effects related to: adjacent buildings and terrains (in other words: instead of introducing auto-place, create a good reason to remove it); and stationed champions. This would of course require the AI enhancements most likely appropriate for a sequel. How about "
Ancient Civilizations:
The Fall of Magic
"?
Factions should be more directly tied to elements, which should be more directly tied to terrain types.
Each element should have its own tech treeS, and optional victory condition.
The tech trees should better reflect the evolution of the world of Anthys/Elemental.
ADD SEASONS.
ADD WEATHER / environment altering spells.
Derive a Dynasty system out of the Fame mechanic.
More summons ("warring elemental"s).
Tactical battles need "Line of Sight" and "cover".
Evolve FE and making something more like MoM doesn't have to be a dichotomous choice! Evolve FE to include more things that were great from MoM!
What was great about MoM?
What's great in FE that's not in MoM and shouldn't be done away with?
I really love MoM (just bought a copy off GOG, and reliving the good old days with some really outdated graphics and interfacing), and would love to see a game that has more like it. I feel the spirit of MoM in FE, especially with the dichotomy of life and death magic and the vying for control of the nodes, and think it would be great to include more aspects from MoM that made it great, as well as increasing the potential complexity of FE in general (the tech tree seemed to shrink a little in LE, which felt like a step backward).
Ahrnauld, I loved MoM back in the day but haven't been able to get back into it. It just seemed to have too many game ending crashes and as you must know the graphics are pretty bad for for modern games.
I forgot about artificing weapons yes that was awesome! An Enchant Weapon type spell would really be great.
Here's what I think about multiple planes. I'd love for there to be some dungeons in the game, like a pipe down to a second underground plain with a bunch of chests and a few monsters. MoM's plains are great as you mention for the different resources and races found there as well as being useful the enchanted roads there as a way to travel between distant locations quickly. Imagine two continents with an underground pathway between them.
I was somewhat surprised at the lack of standard fantasy races in Legendary Heroes when I got it.
Worlds of Magic will feature 7 planes and wants to follow MoM...
Age of Wonders III has a fantastic looking gameplay demo video and seems to be very much in the spirit of MoM with multiple planes at least. Not thrilled about the steampunk additions though. Definitely take a look at it though.
both of those are coming out "soon"
I loved mom I played that game for so long. At some point my mother thought I had ran away from home just to find out I was in my room playing computer all that time.
I've never played a game that was like MOM.
A wizard general trying to survive. Being able to move your capital citadel witha spell to another town. That was so cool.
To see the new add on to your towns when you complete them. And of course casting your own magical artifacts.
Just out there. Wish I had a game like that ready to go.
Can I put in a vote for please, please, please make Galactic Civilization 3, GC2 is still one of my favourite games but I can see so much scope for you to take that further.
Don’t get me wrong I like FE:LH think it’s a great game and I can see how you could take things further, but I don’t love it the way I loved and still love GC2 and bottom line I think the world needs more great 4x space empire games J
I think you should continue expanding on FE:LH. More patches, DLCs, and hopefully one final expansion. Hold off on your other games for a while. Those games will all need to be 64-bit only, Win 7 and higher games, played via steam. So waiting will just let more of the market meet those requirements. Plus maybe if you have a good idea for one of your new games, (diplomacy for example in GC:3) just work a version of the idea into FE:LH:Exp and test it out.
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