After we complete upcoming expansion pack for Elemental: Fallen Enchantress (which we expect to announce NEXT WEEK) we have to do some hard thinking. Specifically, what do we do next? After some trials and tribulations we’ve put together what is, in effect, a Master of Magic style engine (and before someone flips out, I’m not saying FE is just like MOM, I am saying that at this stage, our *game engine* is finally capable of actually making that game which is obviously was not capable of in 2010).
But first, let’s look at the history…
Once upon a time…
After Galactic Civilizations II I wanted to do a fantasy strategy game. I wrote up a brief treatment and had our lead artist draw a mockup of what it should look like:
Basically, I wanted Master of Magic with updated graphics and multiplayer.
During this time, Stardock had the opportunity to publish two games – Sins of a Solar Empire and Demigod. Two opportunities we couldn’t pass up. Meanwhile, Impulse was starting to really take off too.
Now, we’re a small company. REALLY small. People are always shocked at how tiny Stardock is. We might possibly be the oldest independent game studio left (20 years old this year) that still regularly produces new games but the entire enterprise is less than 60 people and that includes our main business – consumer software (Multiplicity, Start8, WindowBlinds, Fences, etc.).
What that meant, back in 2008 is that the team that made Galactic Civilizations had to be spread out to help out on Sins, Demigod and Impulse. To do Elemental, we hired up.
Elemental (and at this point, it was just called Elemental) was going to be a pretty straight forward game. Build cities, capture shards, learn magic, research tech and conquer the world.
Now, Stardock’s game studio didn’t run like a normal game studio. That is, there was really no such thing as a producer or a designer. You either coded or you did art. We had titles but they had no real meaning. Design was handled by the person who was implementing an “area” of the game (for example, GalCiv II did not have a visual tactical battle display in its design, the person who was assigned to code “resolution outcome” wrote that).
And we had a lot of ideas. Why stop with Master of Magic’s design elements when you can also throw in Magic the Gathering concepts, Total War, Civilization IV, Ultima, etc.
Slowly, things began to morph as people had more and more ideas get presented.
The spell system got more sophisticated.
The tactical combat design scope grew.
And the reality was that all this stuff just didn’t mesh together. At one point, we even had underground dungeons.
So when Elemental came out, it was extremely buggy (we had spread ourselves too thin – we had no redundancy) and the individual components just didn’t flow together.
Fall From Heaven
When we looked at what went wrong with Elemental it became clear that we were just wearing too many hats. No one owned the design. No one owned the look of it. No one owned the engine design. We needed to bring someone in who would own the project and enforce their will.
That’s what Kael, the designer of Fall From Heaven was able to do.
Kael (Derek Paxton) didn’t just have great game design skills, he was a senior project manager at Novell.
Originally, we had planned to do two expansion packs:
War of Magic – Fallen Enchantress and War of Magic – Forge of the Overlord. But it was decided that we should do a more ambitious overhaul to the base game and this became Elemental: Fallen Enchantress.
Fallen Enchantress
So with Fallen Enchantress, we ended up with a pretty good fantasy strategy game (if you don’t already have it, GET IT!). We have lots of ideas on how to improve it but the important thing is that we now have a fantasy strategy game engine that is capable of doing whatever type of game we’d like.
And that’s where we’re at. What do we do next? I can tell you one thing, it will not have the word “Elemental” in it. Why? Check this out: [Google Search Results]
That isn’t to say we’d scrap all our work and start over with a brand new design and recreate the millions of dollars in art assets. But it’s not going to be tied to Elemental. But this assumes that our players want us to continue making this style of strategy game at all.
After all, there are some exciting fantasy strategy games in the offing – Age of Wonders 3 I suspect will be announced soon and Eador: Masters of the Broken World looks excellent. Are there enough people who want Stardock to keep making fantasy strategy games of this type to justify that effort?
[Quick aside: What do I mean by “this type of strategy game”?]
Personally, there are two key differentiators in fantasy strategy games that help me define what sub-genre they belong to:
And specifically, the question is: Making fantasy strategy games that involve tactical battles, city building and RPG elements? That’s the niche I think we have here. I don’t think we’ve nailed down the perfect blend yet but that’s what time and experience exist for.
And that is what we’d like to hear from you. Do you like what we’re doing enough to keep Should we continue it forward (and don’t answer “Make Fall From Heaven” its future isn’t tied to this). Also, before someone screams GalCiv III the future of GalCiv is not tied to anything we do here.
Go here to answer:
https://www.elementalgame.com/journals
Discuss in the comments.
Quoting Glazunov1, reply 8...But fix diplomacy before you do.
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm torn. On the other hand, of course I want FE to evolve, I see a lot of potential in it.
However, is there too much excess baggage attached to FE already? I'm not in love with all the systems of FE, and even as a fan it has a little bit of a stigma on it. I think another non-Elemental game might be a good idea. I like the idea of taking a completely different approach on the very same genre with your team that has learned a lot from Elemental.
Don't give up on the genre though.
This!
I like FE in general.
I miss the variety MoM had. Your wizard (which was BTW NOT moving on the playing field, which is a good thing I think) had a great many choices on spell books and traits, all influencing the game and the way you played in a different way. Also the characteristics that came with each magic type (e.g. if you had lots of Death magic you got that strategic spell that revived killed units so you had even more zombies, Fire magic had many destructive spells, if you had only a few books in each category you didn't get the high level spells etc.)
Then there were all the summoning spells in MoM, I really miss that in FE. Basilisk, Behemoth, Angel, Giants, etc. All the typical fantasy creatures were present. Then there was crafting, and spell research was also one of my favorite things.
What I like from FE that isn't there in MoM: quests, the way heroes level up (skills etc.), research in general, but I really think something like MoM spell research should also be there. Everyone always seems to have the same spells....
oh and I really don't like my sovereign to move around, I preferred MoM's capital with tower/castle idea!
cheers,
This is quite a strange poll. If you have lots of ideas how to improve FE, then just go ahead! The concept is great already, and there are many promising directions to explore. On the contrary, I am not sure that there is enough room for an independent Fall from Heaven 3. I see FE as its legitimate heir already.
It is the second half of the sentence that bothers me. The game engine is still full of bugs and obviously needs quite a lot of work to make it look "finished". Please get it right rather than ship another few half-done games.
I'd expect a FFH3 game to be very different from FE. I'd also like to see such a game, if it ever happened, look at some of the modmods of FFH2 and what they did right. There were plenty of major improvements from base FFH2 in a couple of them.
I just don't want a MoM clone, as that idea's time has come and gone.
It would be a pity to let go of what you have accomplished with FE. Being one the customers awarded FE for free after pre-purchasing Elemental:WoM, I could hardly believe how the same game was transformed to FE while staying... the same.
I say, capitalize on this. The potential is there, everyone can see it. Even if it is a niche audience, the niche is there, and you have us by the... beard Fantasy setting, 4X, customizable units, almost hardcore RPG due to the sovereign and heroes mechanic, etc etc. And above all, focus on single player so I can go home after a 10-hour workday and "just another turn" myself to sleep ? There simply is no other such game out there, and I would be really surprised if anyone could publish something close to FE.
Best thing is, FE is very close to being feature-full, meaning that I could only think of couple of (non-essential) features I miss (ie, crafting equipment for my heroes) and the graphics are good for years to come. All you need to do is make the AI use all its assets and the world more efficiently, give it some grasp of strategy and planning, tune the tactical AI to understand it's own abilities and you already have a diamond of a game that will be played for years to come, much like Space Empires V or Sword of the Stars I.
So, capitalize on your investment of the past two years. Make it better, bigger, richer and your niche audience will be there.
Evolve FE
Add Underground Map
Quotes that stuck out from Brad Wardell's Post:
"but the important thing is that we now have a fantasy strategy game engine that is capable of doing whatever type of game we’d like"
"That isn’t to say we’d scrap all our work and start over with a brand new design and recreate the millions of dollars in art assets. But it’s not going to be tied to Elemental. But this assumes that our players want us to continue making this style of strategy game at all."And that is what we’d like to hear from you. Do you like what we’re doing enough to keep going? Should we continue it forward (and don’t answer “Make Fall From Heaven” its future isn’t tied to this). Also, before someone screams GalCiv III the future of GalCiv is not tied to anything we do here.
A little fictional role-play if you will:
Random entry from Brad's Diary:
Dear Diary,
Today I laid it out on the line, for people who I hope are interested, so they could look over my shoulder, from my perspective and the historical point of view that exists in my mind, to help me make this Gut Check on where to steer this boat called "StarDock" on its' next evolutionary voyage.
I can see that people who post have some strong feelings about this and that aspect of games/Fallen Enchantress and Strategy games in general, which affirms that StarDocks' designs have meant something to people, although at times I am not sure the rewards have been worth the price.
I feel pretty good overall though about how everything played out. I have a great team over at the Office. We laugh and are fortunate enough to do what we love and get paid for it. Everybody gets along pretty well and the staff resolves issues without resorting to steps like that Marketing woman did.
I think Dad would be proud that I stood up like a Man and took responsibility for what a lot of people saw as a failure in War of Magic. Even now, after releasing a number of titles I get a rush when we release a new title in to the Unknown. I mean I really liked the idea, loved it, but things happen, life happens and even an independent company like mine can't withstand the winds of change.
So time once again to get the Ol' White Board and markers out {maybe I'll bring in my old D&D mini collection, those inspire me sometimes...yeah yeah, the guys will get a kick out of what a horrible figurine painter I was lol - Violet chainmail color on a Githzerai? WTH was I thinkin? oh well...}
Spitball some ideas with Kael, put Leo on forum post review, pull it all together and think about what the future can be...
Frogboy out.
{I am not trying to put words in Mr. Wardell's mouth so to speak, but this is what I came away with, sorry if it offends anyone}
Evolve FE, by all means don't call the next incarnation "Elemental" anything if that helps from a marketing perspective, but keep the core things that make FE unique (several have already been mentioned). I really don't see the point of cloning something that has already been done, FE has a unique blend of 4x, strategy, tactics and rpg that has huge potential. It's all headed in the right direction no need to go off on a big tangent now.
You got the base, now build upon it.
Make the world come alive
1. Use water
2. Diplomacy
3. Events and quests that changes the game
4. Mercenaries that really matter
5. Give the heroes personality. Its time to go big or go home. Give some heroes unique spells and abilities.
+++
6 Give UMBER some love!
This is not a flame post, please don't take it as such. Just honest feelings.
Brad, I've been a long time Stardock customer dating back to GalCiv 1 release on PC. At one time any new Stardock game was a must purchase for me. GC1 and 2 (probably 1000+ hours in each), Sins was great and introduced me to more RTS elements which I didn't like before. Heck, I even enjoyed Demigod. But I'm a bit more leery now. EWoM wasn't fun. But that's water over the bridge. I was really looking forward to FE and I even got it for free. But I just can't get into the game. I don't really know what it is to be frank. I think it's the mixture of RPG and Civilization that just doesn't work for me. It sounds great. But I've found if I want RPG I go play RPG. If I want Civ, well, I load up Civ 4.
I encourage you to do what the fans want, which looks like more FE. But I'll be on the sidelines waiting for the next thing like GC3 or something totally new. Right now my excitement for a game company has shifted to Paradox and the smaller indies. And upcoming Kickstarter games like Project Eternity, Wasteland 2 and Star Citizen which will eat all my time come 2014. And Cyberpunk 2077 from CDR...wow that looks great. I hope Stardock in the future can strike that fire in me again like you used to.
Keep up the good work and good luck no matter which direction you go!
P.S. I also would like to see Society brought back from the dead.
My FE thread on the Penny Arcade forums is on the front page of those google search results.
I voted for continuing development of FE. In my opinion you have an excellent game here already, but with plenty of room for expansion and giving it more depth and character.
A return of the underground map as we had in MoM would be great, but I could also see alternate dimensions (elemental planes perhaps, or having a chance to go through one of those shadow rifts to another dimension with tons of bad demons) Could even tie some new factions into that. I could also see room for minor factions (cities controlled by NPC's without a sovereign). Mites, wildlings would certainly qualify for something like that.
Crafting would also certainly be a good addition.
I ll totally agree with HF all he says covers me. FE has potential to start its own lore. When i first saw both elemental and FE i was kinda disappointed cause the game was not high fantasy (with races like elfs, dwarfs etc) but after playing the game it turned out that i love the set up. I dont like post-apocaliptic set ups but generally the story of elemental is something new, different but also with much potential. The only things i would like to see in the future from FE is:
P.S. I already work on a D 'n D set on world of Elemental just through some more lore!
I also voted for continuing development of FE, as I believe that (a) it has the potential to be one of the great fantasy strategy games and ( as a platform it can be used by clever modders to give us years of fun.
Here are the 6 things that I believe should be further developed in terms of Game MECHANICS:
1. Smarter diplomacy and more options for interaction (alliances, closed border treaties etc.)
2. Espionage mechanics with the requisite units (ambassador, spy, agent etc.)
3. Item crafting
4. More depth in tactical battles (unit placement, swarming, backstabbing, more abilities etc.)
5. More complex multi-level dungeons (not just single arenas)
6. Random events (encounters) that affect a specific city or army
Here are the 6 things that I believe should be further added in terms of CONTENT:
1. More weapons, armor, items
2. Race-specific trainable units, based on specific building
3. More / more powerful summons spells
4. More varied monsters, and especially monster bosses
5. Many more quests (and also more complex quests with significant choices)
6. More / more frequent random events
If all 6+6 concepts are taken care of in future expansions, DLCs and versions of the game, I am convinced that FE will become a Legendary Game for the Ages...
Best, Yanni
Stick with FE. Work in finding that perfect balance between more depth in all the systems and the right balance between the systems. You're on to something with FE, it just needs some more love and experimentation.
I'm pretty sure you will keep polishing FE, so not sure why I'm posting this. After playing a lot of beta games, I only played a few games after release. FE is no longer interesting for me I'm afraid.
If you want to make a new game, taking things in another direction, here are some things I would like you to reconsider:
* "Graphics is not important". If you look at the pictures above, the mockups are the ones that look best. You really want to be that little figure on a horse. The graphics in FE just don't cut it, they don't make the world feel alive or interesting.
* "Rebuild a destroyed world". It's been done, now on to something new please.
* Please use classic fantasy races, or at least different kinds of creatures instead of just humans.
* Focus more on tactical battles and military strategy, instead of city building and management.
What should remain:
* Unit customization
Fallen Enchantress is very much its own game. It's strengths over its grandaddy of a game MoM are clearly:
Customization: the heroes, the leveling, the units, the equipment.
Technology: this one is self evident.
RPG elements: the quests and wildlands are fantastic new additions to the genre.
The A.I.: Although much maligned, it does seem to be improving, and is already better than that of MoM (barring some strange flukes that take place from time to time).
However the game remains, in my eyes at least, somewhat 'bland'. Its simple fantasy, not HIGH fantasy (despite the prevalence of magic and godlike beings). It doesn't feel epic enough. This is where MoM shines compared to FE. Its scope and ambition.
A lot has to do with the races: all are basically human.
So trogs are half orcs, Shades are half undead, amarians are half elves, etc. But the most recognizeable feature is still human. Where are the elves, the dwarves the draconians and the beastmen? Their absence is keenly felt. A huge step could be taken if each army had a STRONG contingent of unique troop bases to operate from, much like the Gilden have the iron golems and the troggs have juggerneuts. They should go all out, have iron golem troops, mithral paladins as bases on which the customization addons can then be applied. Same goes for troggs, give them human sized genetic throwbacks with all the fury less of the brain (orcs), give them runts are killed by exposure (like in most warrior cultures) but with the right enlightened social technology can be saved and turned into menial laborers and human shields (goblins) This would help distinguish the races, make them stand out more. As it is right now, I am basically selecting a template of skills and racial traits, not selecting a RACE.
The other important ingredient that I feel is missing: enough magic.
For a world as magically saturated as this one I always felt the spells are very limited. You need more magic selection.
At the same time you need more summoned creatures tied to each circle of magic. You need to see these creatures roaming in the world, tied to their elements and their settings. And you need the ability to summon more than just elementals of the appropiate circle.
You also need global spells. Give them a full screen casting animation, give them a visible effect on the world and these will be very rewarding spells to cast and see in play.
Combine this with item crafting (especially using the reagents your heroes keep on picking up) and add to this more monsters, more quests, more loot and you have a very rich magical setting that would set the game apart.
All this being said I can sum up as following: Keep developing FE, but look to MoM for inspiration to add some more grandeur and scope to the game.
I love fantasy strategy games, and will buy both Age of Empires III and I am beta testing Eador actually. I am playing a lot Civ5 right now, and if Elemental had the balance Civ5 has between the various research choices and expansion decisions and pretty darn good strategical AI and AI diplomacy it would be more fun for me than Civ5 as I like the fantasy side of things more.
I would like to see this game polished. If you need to get rid of tactical battles, that is fine, as they are not very tactical anyway. If you can make the AI better in the tactical battles than maybe keep it. I would say keep improving AI, balance out all the traits, skills, weapons and armor, spells, etc etc with this game and just keep making it better. The game itself is great, but there are some serious balance issues and I guess game play design issues (not sure how to phrase that) such as the way pioneers are handled (I still do not like the pioneer spam and the new limitations didn't really help anything). There is no strategic decision on whether to go ICS/rapid expansion or to go "tall"/only a few cities. It is always better to rapidly expand, and that is just one example. There are way too many "choices" that are no choice at all, because they are the best, and nothing else compares, and this comes down to balance and meaningful choices when building your empire and deciding how to win the game.
I am confus. Why do you tell to not answer "Make FFH", and there is option "Go focus on making Fall From Heaven sooner" ?I'm totally voting for FFH, and please, contact guys who made Rise from Erebus modmod for FFH - they have greatly deepened the lore and improved the mechanics of FFH mod!
I think, at it's core, this is a great game, and I'd like to see it expand from where it is rather than change. I like all the elements and I don't want to see any removed (especially not the tactical combat, since that seems to be up for debate).
The biggest problems with FE are its UI and some bugs that affect gameplay. Those problems can be fixed. The actual game itself is great. People keep saying that the different elements of the game don't mesh, but my experience has been different. I like all the different elements of the game. I know you guys say that tactical combat isn't a focus, but I really like the tactical combat.
The bugs and the UI flaws can be really big turn-offs to people, and that's probably crippled sales of the game. That and the lack of a demo. I was really iffy about buying it. I've played games of similar descriptions that were just awful. However, it sounded promising, and I took the chance. At first I regretted it because of the aforementioned problems, but the game is very good, so I stuck with it. The bugs still annoy the hell out of me sometimes, because they really can screw up your game, but most of the time reloading the last autosave will get around it.
People will keep talking about balance issues and the AI, but honestly, fixing those things are just going to satisfy existing customers. You can improve the core gameplay, but people still won't be able to get past the bugs and UI shortcomings, so fixing those should be priority. Fix those, and then get a demo out there.
That said, if you do make another game like this after the expansion, consider a hexagonal grid instead of a square-based one. It works much better for this format.
Another evolution of FE would be great. With all the ideas that get kicked around in the forum it's obvious that there's still a lot of room for FE to grow.
Would like to see a game similar to Final Fantasy: Tactics as well. The FE Engine looks like it could be used for that type of genre. It would also be a way for you to put out a TBS RPG that actually gives players more of a connection to the world you created with Elemental/FE. Not having read the novel(s?) I really have no connection to your pre-created factions.
Please make FE bigger and better and even more wonder filled. It seems to me to fill an interesting unique game playing niche that Stardock could shine in as well as it does with GalCiv2.
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