Hello guys,
I just recently got back into Sins when I picked up Rebellion on the Steam sale. I spent the last couple of days feeling out the changes compared to Diplomacy, and trying to decide on a Faction and Alignment. Now I'm at a point where I believe I'd like to focus on either TEC Loyalists (the turtling/ war-of-attrition type of play seems like it'd appeal to me, and I've always liked having good economy.) or one of the Advent factions (I like the Battleball synergy, both Titans appear to be quite powerful, Culture and all the stuff linked to it seem powerful, and shields are awesome.).
So, I'd like to ask for some help deciding on a faction, and if Advent, on Loyalists or Rebels as well as some starting help like what shiptypes and researches to get early etc.
Thanks a lot guys!
Except that it doesn't do this very well....and that here is the point of this thread (and others)...what the Ankylon was intended to do is irrelevant, because it doesn't do that (or anything) well....fact of the matter is that it performs worse than all of the titans in most nearly all situations...the only thing the Ankylon has going for it is an ability interrupt/disable tied to a ship harder to kill than caps with comparable abilities (akkan, dunov, etc.)...
Furious defenses simply does not work in keeping the ship alive...what keeps titans alive, what really keeps them alive, is the ability to remove enemy firepower quickly, NOT the ability to take lots of damage...only the coronate and Ankylon lack effective AoEs for dealing with massive amounts of frigates (though suppression does give the coronate an edge over the Ankylon)...
Group shield is probably the worst titan ability in the game...the mechanics of the ability (short range, it's targeted, and has poor duration/cooldown ratio) cripple it severely, and even if it affected all nearby ships at all times, it still wouldn't do much to help keep frigates alive...hell, the prog's shield regen is better for that and that is a capital ship ability...
Inspire and Impair is also a huge let down because of its poor duration/cooldown ratio and because it doesn't affect SC...
You want to make the Ankylon actually work?
I should have known you'd latch onto that sentence...
My point was to try to find the synergies the devs had in mind. It may be that they had an entirely different purpose in mind for the Ankylon. That's why it's part of a different faction. Rebellion is all about switching up the play style of each race. The bottom line is that it feels like everybody wants the new stuff from Rebellion, but they don't want it to be the game-changing stuff the devs wanted. TEC Loyals are supposed to lock down their territory and tank through the game while nuking the crap out of everyone else with Novas. People are looking at just the Ankylon and not the other abilities a good Loyalist should have researched by that time. The militia upgrades make a massive difference, the EXP boost in friendly culture can help(Though probably not completely negate) the loss of EXP from keeping your ships home, and between the extra armor from Group Shield and the repair platforms/Hokos/Cielos that should be nearby, yes, your fleet should outlast the enemy every time barring an overwhelming numerical advantage or a fleet specifically set up to counter your own defenses.
I can agree that the execution of the Group Shield is a bit iffy, though. I would personally prefer either not having to target a specific ship t center it, or making it an aura emanating from the Ankylon itself. And I see no reason it shouldn't be able to benefit from it itself.
-Huzzah!
Quite simply, you are wrong....those bonuses just don't compare to what TR has, and the Ankylon is a major handicap...there are many SP like you who claim the skilled ICO guys "just aren't using the faction properly" or some other nonsense....
When you actually play online, it is quickly apparent that TL are bad once titans start becoming the cornerstones of fleets...but since you don't play online in skilled games, this is probably a waste of my time....
Seleuceia
The Sins community can already establish that the Coronata and the Ankylon are not fleet wiping titans but there's also no evidence or statistics that show that pro advent loyalists are loosing when it comes to titan+ fleet battles and how they are loosing plus why.
What i do know is the coronata looses when it comes to unity masses range but other than that i know that the damage unity mass can do is better than snipe from the Ragnorv due to cool downs and fleet support. Its not AOE damage which is also a bad thing but it is a titan killer.
It would be wise to let everyone know the truth: The truth is that most players hate defensive titans as opposed to kill everything titans. The Coronata's defense ability is the best in the game because its not anti-matter dependent but all the other titans depend on anti-matter for their main abilities. Is it not only fair to also assume that if you take away the anti-matter with Kortuls or Radiances then you easen your encounters. I kill these titans everyday with other titans so its also a macro thing.. having the right ships, utility cruisers and anti-matter reserves also determines the victor.
People play AL online simply to try it out...also, wail is banned from many games so that takes away a huge reason to play AR...
Unity mass is the best ability that it has...it allows it (without the need for lots of bombers or frigates) to deal good damage to SBs or Titans, making it good in 1v1 fights...
This is false....micro phase jump is far better as a defensive ability, mainly because it allows you to get out of a gravity well ASAP...suppression ain't going to do you any good when you have mass bombers or corvettes swarming you...microphase jump also allows you to avoid things that might deplete your antimatter...that it also is a great offensive ability is a huge plus...
Furious defenses also is going to do you more good late game because it helps keep the titan alive regardless of what is hitting you...suppression aura doesn't affect SC or corvettes, and thus won't help you in the slightest in many of the situations titans will encounter late or even mid game....
Brute force frigate spam really only works against lvl 1 and 2 titans, and when going against anything higher than that players usually will be relying on other things (bombers, corvettes, titans, caps with abilities)...the only exceptions to this are the TEC titans...you can always brute force an Ankylon if you have enough frigates (though I wouldn't suggest it) and if you micro constantly (and are a bit lucky) you can take down a ragnarov by avoiding the front gun (and thus all its abilities)...point is, the times when suppression aura would help you are times when the titan is so low level that suppression aura isn't going to be enough if enough frigates are brought against it (and skilled players will easily have enough frigates)...
FYI, the best non ultimate titan ability BY FAR is currently desperation, and that is also passive...
Interesting thread here. I have to agree with the players saying the Vorastra (VL titan is overpowered). It has what are arguably 3 of the best titan abilities in the game packed into one titan and once it's slightly leveled up it becomes virtually unbeatable.
I would argue that all by itself micro-phase jump is an overpowered ability. Ignoring the other stuff entirely this ability is a massive boon both offensively and defensively. It allows a VL player to teleport directly into the midst of the enemy frigate and cruiser fleet (or more likely the stacks of carriers you typically see late game) and immediately be firing on all of them. If for some reason it starts getting threatened this same ability lets it hop right across to the edge of the well for a quick phase jump out escape.
Next you factor in desperation. While I don't think this ability is too game changing, but when coupled with the incredibly effective weapons of the Vorastra it leads to a ship that passively deals more damage than pretty much any other. Particularly when you factor in the new pulse and wave late game techs that VL get increasing their firepower advantage dramatically.
Then you have the Maw. Hands down the best ability in the game as in one use it will completely wipe out an enemy fleet and give a bunch of resources to boot. Now, when you consider how it synergizes with micro-phase jump, there becomes no way to defend a frigate/cruiser/carrier fleet against it. The Vorastra once leveled to this extent basically becomes unstoppable and I've yet to see a practical way to counter it.
Personally, I find all the whining about VR being too OP to be misplaced. The really OP faction is VL. If they can survive in decent shape to a late game scenario they become practically unstoppable. TEC certainly can't hold a candle to them with their pathetic late game.
Last night I did some tests with desperation....
A lvl 1 VL titan with 20 overseers was able to beat 100 heavy cruisers....that's 290 fleet supply vs. 1000...
All I did was pick desperation and the health upgrade...when the titan got to level 2, I picked microphase jump and the AM upgrade (which are pretty common and realistic picks though contributed nothing to the battle)...once it got to level 3, I picked lvl 2 desperation and lvl 2 of the health upgrade...the VL titan raped the HCs within a couple minutes...
Even if I didn't pick lvl 2 of desperation, the VL titan died after killing 25 of the 100 HCs...the remaining ones were at about 50% hull (no shields obviously)...
Even a lvl 3 VL titan is an absolute beast...you don't need much of anything to support it, needing only overseers and maybe some corvettes or fighters to deal with bombers...if you go against another titan, the only unit you need to deal with it is bombers (upgraded PMs of course)...
Even if desperation didn't affect corvettes, it would still be better than any other titan AoE at levels one and two (yes, even better than scattershot or chastic burst)...
This is not a fleet wide defense.. Suppression beats any am dependent ability like furious defense. i feel like your negativity against the tl and al is unnecessary.
A fleet wide defense which barely actually has an impact on late game damage. it doesn't affect strikecraft, it doesn't affect corvettes, it doesn't affect starbases, and most importantly it doesn't affect ability damage(which is to say AoE damage). The only late game damage source it affects is titan weapon damage. it affecting capitalships is minor at best, and mid-late game combat frigates don't get seen anyway.
but frankly that's not what is really a threat to your fleet. The true threats to the fleet are AoE damage(for frigates) and bombers(for capitalships).
Heck, it doesn't do a ton to actually protect your titan either being that it doesn't affect corvettes or strikecraft.
All in all Suppression aura does very little to actually protect your fleet being that it doesn't actually protect against any of the types of damage that actually really threaten your fleet.
You continue to be entirely too impressed by the large sounding raw numbers on a passive without regard to how little of late game damage it actually affects.
It does affect starbases.... allowing the Coronata to effortlessy wipe any fortifications all other Titans had been pulversied by.
I stand corrected- there was a time it didn't and I was unaware it had changed.
I play vasari loyalits and i can asure you that suppression does hinder the vl titan. Strength of the fallen on the eradica is also affected by suppression when i play them.
Suppression reduces the damage output of weapons fire from enemy structures, frigates, caps and titans by up to a late game value of 40%.
Microed guardians do protect against 30% of all damage types (AOE included). Culture (which is easily applied by AL) takes care of shield mitigation.
Need i say anything about repulsion?
These factors alone ( in the hands of skilled player) will allow unity mass to snipe a level 1 titan before the fleet is wiped out because late game unity mass is devastating esp when it hits with malice active.
The only titan to ever worry about is the VR titan with its AM drain.
lets not also forget that AL corvettes also reduce the hit chance of weapons fire..that also targets titans.
It does not affect desperation. So whoop-dee-do suppression aura removes something like 20-30 DPS to 2-3 targets from the enemy fleet at max rank.
By contrast STrength of the Fallen can make more then twice that modification(only in the positive direction) on the second-highest weapon dps titan in the game(the eradica) which is one of the only 2 titans which has weapons that can target 4/3/3/4 enemies rather then 3/2/23 or 2/3/3/2.
Strength of the fallen on the eradica is also affected by suppression when i play them.
Actually it's the other way around. Strength of the fallen makes Eradica more resistant to Suppression aura, not less. In example:
Normal titan suffer a net absolute loss of 1-1.4^-1= about a 28.6% net loss of damage
by contrast a fully stacked eradica gains +90% damage and suppression reduces it's damage by 40%- since they use the same entity modifier they stack additively, resulting in the eradica still doing +50% damage. So the absolute loss is 1.5/1.9=about a 21.05% loss of damage.
When I say absolute loss of damage I refer to the actual loss of damage, not the silly sins math buff display numbers.
So Eradica is actually less vulnerable to Suppression Aura then other titans
Structures matter little late game.
Starbases are situational
Capitalships aren't about weapon damage and honesty are often kept as out of harms way as possible while still being able to use their abilities.
combat Frigates simply aren't used late game.
When it comes down to it the only non-situational type of late game damage suppression Aura affects is titan damage- thus the effects to the opponenet's full DPS potential are rather small.
It certainly isn't going to save your fleet from AoEs or your capships from bombers, which are the main threats to your fleet anyway.
So? this is a discussion about how suppression aura doesn't bring much to the table in terms of fleet survivability- and a bility that is not even faction-specific isn't really part of this argument.
Additionally a 30% damage redirect isn't going to allow a frigate fleetto survive titan aoe. The Ankylon can't do that with it's potential 84% damage redux. Not to mention you'd need a lot of guardians as most titan AoEs will overload a guardian's shields in one go.
again w're chiefly discussion Suppression Aura's nonefficacy as a defensive tool, not the coronata as a whole.
But while we're on the topic, the Coronata is still one of the weaker titans. And don't trying to attribute the strength of baseline advent tools like guardian abilities to the coronata's strength- the advent rebels get all those goodies too and the Eradica is a heck of a lot better.
Which is again nice, but plenty of races get good corvette abilities.
All that said I'm not claiming the Coronata is worthless- the Unity Mass changes were a huge help. But it's still a leg down on the titans that actually have AoE capabilities. Sure it can 1v1 most other titans, but that's not going to matter when the enemy can melt their fleet fast with AoE turning the situation into a 1vs.many scenario.
Unity Mass is of course great, but subjugating assault doesn't hit it's stride til late game and eve then isn't amazing. Suppression Aura has poor performance late game, and repossession is highly situational. By contrast most of the better titans have multiple strong tools rather then one strong tool and a buch of "meh"/situational ones.
And let's not forget Chastic Burst, one of the stronger points of the Eradica. And also unaffected by Suppression Aura.
In general, bilun, I do agree with most nearly everything you said...there is one thing though that I disagree with...
When discussing the power of titans (and capital ships or SBs, for that matter), I really do think it is fair to factor in the support cruisers likely to be around it...
As an example, much of the power of the VL titan comes from overseers...those ships really play a huge role in that titans strength and strategy, because they allow the titan to make use of desperation for a much longer period of time....likewise, Advent titans always have repulsion they can use to protect them or to trap ships...additionally, the weak late game repair of the hoshiko really is a factor when considering the vulnerability of the TEC titans....on the flipside, knowing you can do dem bot spam mid game also has to be considered since it opens up new strategies for low level TEC titans...
Other than that though I agree with you...
good point. Synergies should always be considered in a discussion about the potency of a titan as a whole.
That said though if we're merely discussing which titan have the best defensive ability-note focusing upon a comparison between singular abilities- I think it's fair to compare abilities in a void in all cases except for cases where direct and potent synergy exists between the titan ability and some other tool. And honestly I don't think a synergy potent enough to elevate suppression aura to "strongest titan defensive ability" is present in either of the guardian's abilities.
As you say though, we by and large seen to agree.
If you coupled Suppression with Inspire and Impair then....oh wait...
Don't even get me started on I&I- the titan level 6 ability(read: ability that doesn't occur until very late game) that doesn't affect titans or strikecraft, the quintessential late game units. Well if the Ankylon could actually keep a fleet of combat frigates alive through titan AoE(which it currently can't) the buff portion could be handy- but even if it could, other races arei n no hurry to stop massing bombers.
I get that strikecraft boosts are very strong, but the simple fact of the matter which stardock seems to not yet have grasp is that weapons boosts that don't effect strikecraft lose most of their utility late game- and as a result just aren't well suited to occur on titans(they can be great on capitalships which come out early of course). I suppose I should be glad that I&I at least affects corvettes.
To be fair though even the current target filter on suppression aura could be very strong if the debuff was large enough to hard counter combat frigates as effectively as titan AoE(though I guess the only passive analogue is desperation)-damage abilities do- but at 40% this is not the case. I&I on the other hand flat out needs it's target filter expanded, even if the buff/debuff is of smaller magnitude for late game units.
arggh, thinking suppression Aura & I&I's target filters puts way too much bile in me.
Kind of a lore point here, so I guess you can ignore it, but how did it end up that the Advent Loyalists who are supposedly corrupted by vengeance or something (at least according to the Rebels) get a defensively built titan and the Rebels who I would expect to be more enlightened (if they're calling the loyalists aggressive or insinuating it) end up with a mostly offensive ship?
Well to be fair, thematically the nature of the defense is in debuffs that result from the titan forcefully suppressing and subduing enemy ships- or likely mmore specifically the crews of those ships via psionic brute force.
I don't think offense or defense are intrinsically tied to vengeance or cruelty- brutality, be it physical or mental can be applied just as easily to crippling the target and reducing the threat it poses(which is defense technically) as to actually destroying the target(which would be offense.
Not to mention, the Coronata's most important ability, Unity Mass is purely offensive. The slow on Suppression Aura is also arguably offensive- and with how the target filter ignores just about every late game damage source, one could argue at present the slow is the most useful part of suppression Aura late game.
All of that said though, the whole "corruption/vengeance" thing is more a part of the theme behind the rebels then the Loyals- while it's the excuse by which the advent rebels diverged, the actual core thematic features of the loyals is essentially mind cotnrol and an overwhelming desire to assimilate damn near everything that thinks and breaths into the unity.
Yet the Rebels' techs allow easier procurement of enemy units. The AL get subjugating assault, which doesn't work well but the rebels got reanimation which, while not game changing, is far more effective.
I suppose Repossession should be up there too, but seeing as how that doesnt get you units it seems like a theme that doesn't show up in your fighting style.
I think what I'd like to see that would play to this theme is something that rewards aggression. The idea being something like if you've captured 2 planets owned by an enemy player in the last 5 minutes, you get something that helps you keep going. If you stop or get stopped, you lose the bonus and will have an uphill battle.
I think the Rebels get this through their reanimation, return of the fallen, unyielding will techs. I'm not sure how often they are used in MP, but that is irrelevant: the point is there is a structure in place for the rebels to be rewarded for being more aggressive and no such thing for the loyalists...
It's backwards I say.
Not that this thread is about balancing the AL, but I think if it were up to me I would make assimilated populace apply a buff to ships in the well so that it could then be used towards conquering the next. I'd also make coward's submission work on enemy worlds affected by your culture.
I think you are looking at this with the wrong perspective...
AL have several themes: culture, vengeance, and subjugation...
AR have several themes: sacrifice, determination, and purification...
Let us now look and see which faction specific techs and titan abilities fall into each theme....
Culture:
Vengeance:
Subjugation:
Sacrifice:
Determination:
Purification:
The only thing that really seems out of line is Mass Communion....everything else falls into the faction specific themes...now, some things are debatable...Chastic burst and Reanimation could be argued to be in several categories...for example, Chastic Burst could be in Determination or Vengeance....Reanimation (which is cloning defeating enemy ships) could be seen as Purification...nevertheless, the boundaries between AR themes and AL things are in general pretty clear cut...
There is no "Offensive" theme and "Defensive" theme for Advent or Vasari...that is only a TEC distinction and simply does not apply to the other 2 races...
Subjugating Assault is not half bad at higher levels. You even get experience when you capture stuff with it, so it can also be viewed as an chance to instant kill enemy units. Of course in MP it also gives the enemy a chance to get extra XP off captured units, and it's all about not "Feeding the titan", but in theory and if the tactics where any different it would work a lot better.
Ok, I might have reached a bit on that last post. I thought it odd that their titans seemed backwards-themed and cherry-picked supporting evidence from the research trees without realizing it, my bad.
However, I still think it's odd that the titan for the AL in function works out to be more defensive when the theme suggests it should be more offensive. Vice versa for the rebels. I'm not saying all factions can be cast as offensive or defensive, but Advent titans seem to be, and it doesnt line up with what you would expect from their themes.
If you think I'm completely off, I guess I'll drop it. You all are mostly talking about MP anyhow, which I have no input on
Are you sure about that? I was under the impression stolen units gave no exp. I'm pretty sure I tested it a few months back and saw no jumps in exp on conversions.
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