For those of you interested in seeing in progress AI updates I've been working on over the holiday you can try the latest build here:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8051911/FE-119frog.zip
Just unzip the EXE into your FE directory.
The biggest changes should be on larger maps. However, be on the look out for longer turn times since I've had the AI do more analysis to try to make it smarter.
The gold cost would OP wealthy.
One idea: make pioneers require a lvl 2 city?
Quoting mqpiffle, reply 7Just curious - have you addressed the AI sovereigns/champions always choosing Assassin Path at level 4 issue with these changes?
Yay!
+ Fixed bug where AI knowledge trading didn't always reduce tradeable knowledge
Sounds promising, hopefully this helps/resolves the AI has ever growing knowledge issue. So yay also.
I don't like that pioneer gold cost one bit. It makes taking wealthy and selling all your items the most winning strategy. If you want to limit early game pioneer spam, just make building a pioneer drain 20-30 population from the town it got built in. This is a very interesting thought. What do others think?
I don't like that pioneer gold cost one bit. It makes taking wealthy and selling all your items the most winning strategy.
If you want to limit early game pioneer spam, just make building a pioneer drain 20-30 population from the town it got built in.
This is a very interesting thought. What do others think?
Yeah this sounds like a much better idea than gold cost.
I agree with HF, I don't think tacking 70 gold cost or whatever to pioneers is the right solution.
That's also an interesting idea, on the surface it sounds like a great idea. Maybe a combo of the two ideas.... so pioneers require a level 2 city and say 10 population.
AI1.Still stuck near my border;2. His expand strategy looks completely irrational, thats one of main problems with AI, he is city and outpost spammer - if he see spot anywhere on the map he tries to take it without analysis of(i) how he will protect this part of his spread domain;(ii) are new settlement close to aggresive opponent with supperior army;3. It looks he is not playing with or against his neighbours - but this is oblivious biggest threat level are coming for him. Arent tactical games is about war and killing your closest threats.4. He cant predict if he will be attacked with rush or tech rush from his neighbour. Yes this is big problem AI are not capable to fight against tech rush. Maybe he is not aggressive enough. Its easy to understand if your neighbour dosent build any units and just going for tech rush with 2 lev fortress (+3 move +3 att to units). There always been several rush strategies but tech rush easily can be countered on early stages by attacking weak player. But instead of waging war AI waits for his inevitable death. So AI are not agressive enough on weak player.5. Never saw him using strategy spells on my cities or armies.6. Last but not least he is not deathstar user or stoper. It means if you want to win you gather best army and fight against closest threat. Same way with defence if you see deathstar army your prepare all you have and give it a fight.Balance:1. Cloud walking + Outposts for mana. Thats just insane. Please add cooldown on cloud walking and set it to 200 mana.2. City protection struggle because of:(i) almost 90% i attack city with my deathstar, who should fight against it in the city? Yes main army should protect it, or at least have right to choose to give a fight or to abandon city (or even raze it). This leads to town portal spell (spends mana and all movement) without that all deathstars and unstoppable city takers. This also adds some balance against cloud walking outposts.(ii) please buff militia and archers or add walls (or streets with building) to tactical map. City defenders must have tactical advantage where it is? Actually i want to start city protection behind the city walls and not with militia meat in open field.3. Diplomacy benefits and buffs from treaties should be rised. Its wrong if agressive player ignores diplomacy and still easily wins the game by clearing with his army whole map without any ally . Key feature here give AI instrument against agressive player, and i never saw real AI alliance with simultaneous attack against my deathstar army or city.Random map generator:1. Random generator (balanced) - never saw arctic terrain, swamps, deserts on one map.2. Recourse placement looks completely chaotic. Maps with no crystal, metal (horses) within 30 tiles of starting point. Still looks like game is not in favor of "build your country and protect borders", instead "everybody settle anywhere you can and grab what still free". Monster attacks are not aggressive enough to stop not protected harvesting. Where is logic monsters logic "if no protection or threat - crush kill and destroy"... even capital city.2. I saw only one global event in dozen of random games ("everybody goes war against each other") and it was bugged nothing happened and i didnt have any alliances.3. What is point in starting points without essence? City buffs are part of diversity in early game strategy.
Level 2 city might be an interesting way to do it. It might require code (the money req. doesn't cost anything).
Speaking of the "wealthy" attribute. I tend to think it's too powerful. It seems like getting 200 more gilldar to start with would e a huge early boon.
I hope people really *really* notice the AI improvements. For me, writing AI is a real passion. I've been doing it for over 20 years. FE (like WOM) doesn't lend itself to good AI since there are so many min/max/traveling salesmen type problems in the design. Plus, I really don't want to wipe out the modders by hard coding strategies into C++.
The AI seemed better when I played it on ridicilous though somewhat nerfed tech wise?. Still annoying that they insta declare on the second you are below them in power, makes diplomacy completely redundant, and exploration a bad idea since you want to be left alone as long as possible in the start.
They did some 3-pronged attacks on me and stuff, didn't see those coming before. (they seemed coordinated because they were full armies with heroes in them, before it was usually just "harass" armies alongside real armies) But I still faced full archer armies, and those aren't very good when you have some air shards, guardian wind and wargs.
Also, my custom factions, that I made units for to play better stopped using them and went back to default ones. Coincidence?
Indeed. This has to be addressed. AI needs to be less aggressive towards smaller nations and the power rating influence on relations has to be lower. Diplomacy in general really needs to be polished a lot.
If a unit requiring a city level isn't coded (would it be different then a building requiring a lvl), perhaps it should be coded?
I think limiting some buildings (or adding some) to higher city levels would enhance the game as a general balance rule.
I'd love to see world buildings require lvl 3, with a cap of 1 per city level above 2 (so lvl 3 can have 1, lvl 4 2, and lvl 5 3)
I think that would solve another problem with the game (a player exploit)
Maybe traits could be a function of city level and maybe town type (Fortresses could provide better/more varied traits)
I join the choir here. I still want to create eventually large empires with many cities, but right now pioneer are just too cheap, or there is not enough drawback in founding cities. Now the problem is that outpost also require the same unit.
I would propose leave the price as is for pioneer, but have villages cost 5 gilder a turn perhaps, to slow down too fast spamming.
Thanks for the update notes. I like that monsters don't salt the land, still it means that as soon one gets into a city, you get razed. That's just too hard. Why not kill the monsters and destroy buildings for a worth equal to y time the combat value of said monsters?
Wealthy is one of those problems where its an early bonus compared to a bonus throughout the game, right now I don't think its too much, cause it only gives rushing power at best, and compared to 10% bonus research for the WHOLE game those few rushes doesn't mean too much in my empires anyways.
It only becomes a problem when rushing out to grab each damn city spot is the ONLY viable strategy available... Well you get the idea.
Sincerely~ Kongdej
Yeah Nibelung44 and Kongdej both make good points here I think. Whilst it would be good to curb city spam a bit, need to be careful about making it prohibitive to built outposts.... because they are a neat feature. So possibly having it so that founding a city is more expensive (not necessarily in terms of gildar) than an outpost makes some sense. Certainly the different options need careful thought. Unfortunately a good solution is probably going to require some kind of coding.
And I agree with Kongdej, I don't think the wealthy trait is necessarily overpowered, especially if there is a good way to curb city spam in place.
In my opinion the AIs should try to ally against the strongest player, not go for somebody who is somewhat weaker but not a walkover.
Why? If you are wasting your power fighting somebody who isn't a real threat to you, then you are going to fall back even more from the most powerful opponent. Of course, if you know you can just take the cities of the weakling without much cost then it is beneficial action. But this isn't usually the case.
So, instead try to ally with the somewhat weaker player and attack the strongest player. This would lead to natural balancing, where the strongest player will get attacked instead of left alone.
I'm not too sure Drusus. I often play boardgames and usually I do that. If I'm the strongest, I go against the second (the strongest behind me). If I'm not, I try to kill and absorb the weakest, to be stronger.
What you are saying works if the only victory condition is military conquest, but if you want to go for a Spell of Making or a Master Quest, you'll want to ally with the strongest player to make sure you're safe until you complete your objective. I don't know if this philosophy still applies, but I think Stardock goes with Drusus' idea, so the AIs will work to bring down the strongest player. I don't actually know what they did for FE, but this is how it works in GalCiv. Here's an article about it:
https://www.galciv1.com/encyclopedia.asp?action=showpage&page=https://www.galciv1.com/docs/criticalmass.html
The thing is that in GalCiv you could establish trade and pay tribute and improve your diplomacy skill to the point where even if you didn't have a serious military force, the other civilizations would leave you alone for the most part, except if there was some other factors, like lingering racial grudges etc.
This has to be implemented in Fallen Enchantress too, because otherwise diplomacy is next to useless as it is now. Everybody you meet will immediately declare war on you. Establishing trade routes should improve your relationship with other factions more, and paying tribute and signing NAPs should ENSURE peace for the duration of the pact, so the AI shouldn't break them. Declaring war on their enemies etc should really make a difference. There will of course be factors like different allegiance and leader personality which will impact relations.
I'm playing Caveman2Cosmos now for Civilization IV and it has brilliant diplomacy. Of course Civilization IV is a 8 years old game and had many expansions and patches, and the Caveman2Cosmos mod had more people working on it then Stardock has employees, but it shows that it can be done. I'm not saying I expect FE to get to that level, but at least to GalCiv standards. That being said, FE is still young, we'll see...
Does this mean they will choose a random trait at level up, or will the AI pseudo-intelligently choose a trait based on certain conditions?
Just brainstorming here: What if instead of making Pioneer units cost gold, charge gold for the founding of a city. Maybe 10 gold per rating (so a 3/2/2 would cost 70 gold).
Maybe producing settlers uses a population point, and that coupled with making certain buildings only available at certain populations would slow down expansion.
Problem is not with speed of expasions but in its core concepts.
Tactical AI:
- please fix mosters they dont use their AoE damage specials (swipe, fire breath) when surronded.
- are ranged dodge taken in to account when AI choses to shot in champion with it.
- are initiative order is taken in to account when AI choose his target to attack? If we have two same units but one is slowed and didnt act yet and other already acted which will be chosen by AI?
Tactical spell balance:
- Why heal and curses dosent scale from spell damage?
There is a big difference in 4 players playing boardgames, and the AI trying to make a fun game.I think the AI should mix up, usually if possible try and ally up to weaken the top power. But sometimes instead try to absorb the lowest player, if the AI uses the same strategy each time, its inevitably is going to be flawed.
The worst part of all the AI's trying to gang up on the lowest power player is, first off some super-power can still run off with the power, he just have to out-produce and out-settle the others.Due to the nature of how much production and income you gain from owning more cities than your opponent, you are if playing right and not taking random maps into account, better able to out-race the other players, or conquer the weaker player first.So if the AI always ignores the top-leading player, he will always out-pace the lower players with the rare occurance of some AI player finding heaps of lands to settle which was ignored by the other AI's.As a last note, its not fun being ganged up upon
The #2 AI should in general be looking for a partner to gangbang the #1 player, or should try to rush down the #1 player if he can do it.
Perhaps the AI should decide what is to its advantage, which weak players to absorb and which to ally with. But for that to work, I think the AI would have to first set a goal which it wishes to achieve, like what type of victory to achieve. But to implement something like this I think it would require a lot of coding, so I don't see it happening too soon.
Well maybe that's the problem? Make population count for something other than just levels and Sacrifice fodder for mana? You already have the faction prestige limiter on growth, so linking population with production/research/economy could fix a lot. If needed add some buildings to make use of population better in the early game, so going tall is a good option, because that is what I think many are after here. Going wide works fine atm obviously, so nerfing it just cause AI spams it isn't a good reason IMO.
Also, getting AI to play tall well, there is your challenge
Clever AI's are awesome. I loved the BetterAI project on Civ4, if you can get anything remotely similar to that, we will love you
Also, it could be helpful if you said what to look out for regarding feedback. Most of us is stupid regarding AI code after all ^^
It's not super intelligent about it. I weight the choice based on the unit's equipment and stats.
My dream would be for the AI to be a separate DLL so I could hand out source code and other people could make their own AI.
Galactic Civilizations for OS/2 had its AI as its own DLL so peoplpe could see what I did right (or wrong) and make their own and share it on Usenet with other players.
Civilization IV (and now V) actually provided a lot of source code so you can do a lot more modding with them. Unfortunately, we just don't have the resources to componentize the code so that the licensed bits aren't so intermixed with our bits.
I'd suggest throwing in traits, and maybe faction abilities as well. Ceresa should always go Mage I think
Move outpost creation to scouts and do the -pop thing for pioneers IMO. Though 30 seems low, I'd go as high as 100, perhaps have it scale based on game speed (like 30 fast, 50 normal, 100 epic).
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