Today the President, many other Americans and yours truly shed tears. It's beyond belief, beyond explanation and beyond any understanding.
Despite the grief felt after Columbine, Aurora and most recently Portland, today's "event" added a new dimension to the insanity which cavorts in our country. Twenty children aged 5-10. Teachers. Those who dedicate their lives to opening the minds and spirits of those precious, fragile sprouts.
Despite this newest horror, this appeared on Twitter:
Vipers: No compassion. No genuine human feeling. Sociopaths and psychopaths waiting to happen to some other group of people here or somewhere else. 'People'/airheads who interact with keyboards and touch screens who have no thought beyond, "entertain me". No, not vipers... vipers are snakes which do what they're supposed and succeed at doing in the context of normal Nature. These creatures are something else entirely.
If you see people crying or somber, nod your head to them. They are real people.
If you see people laughing and acting happy, ask them "Have you heard what happened in Newtown, Connecticut?". Odds on the answer will be, "Huh?". If after you tell them, they respond blithely: Run!
Run for your life.
Could be, CG1.
Did a little [unbiased] research. Four reasons appear for Operation Tannenbaum appear to be relevent although no one knows for sure:
1) Switzerland was used as a safe financial conduit for buying war materiel and a safe gold bullion repository.
2) The planned date for invasion coincided with the date of the loss of the Battle of Britain and launch of the invasion of Russia.
3) It is mountainous and poorly suited for the operational strength of the German Army: Armour.
4) 20% of Swiss males had rifles and were trained soldiers. That would have cost infantry losses in the thousands which Hitler couldn't commit because of the invasion of Russia.
If only. I guess snide comments don't count (#198).
not really a good example. i am quite happy small knifes are no longer allowed on airplanes. back in the days i always carried my Swiss Army knife in my hand luggage and nobody ever cared. pretty scary if you think about it.
as an outsider it's pretty easy to judge Americans. i have to admit i would feel safer with a gun in my house too if i had to live in certain areas. fortunately i don't.
Yep.. B happened after A: Therefore A caused B. [unfortunately, that works only rarely].
Another one: Every heroin addict breathes air. Air causes heroin addiction.
Works every time. Don't forget:
You need guns because your government wants to kill you ?
This thread is unbelievable
Paranoia isn't a joke.
Don't forget, RickJP:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/mother-of-sandy-hook-gunman-adam-lanza-was-a-gun-obsessive-living-in-fear-of-societys-collapse-16251468.html
Web....#203 is patently absurd propaganda.
Check those dates....and you will find Australia, the US, Canada and the UK had NO gun control yet lost millions during those times.
The US might have been confused about the actual DATES of WW1 and 2 ....they certainly dragged their heels.... but any of those times were during global conflict of varying degrees.
I am certain all the GIs and Aussies, etc dying in Afghanistan is purely because some kids were slaughtered in the US and people are contemplating [some form of] gun control.
Yep, that's the reason they die. Patently nothing to do with the Taliban, or terrorism, or social oppression....
I've thought long and hard about this for a few days now and here..are my thoughts...
First off, my sincerest sympathies for the families and friends of the children and teachers that lost their lives.
The United States is founded on the freedom of it's citizens on many levels that were (in their time) most unique to the world. One of them being said right to bear arms in the defense of said freedom.
It is this freedom that has permitted such a young nation to achieve the status of one of the greatest superpowers of the world.
While many of you may despise this status, perhaps you may consider that the US provides more aid both financially and militarily than most anyone else in the world to those that are in need.
Our right to bear arms has been and will be a significant deterrent to anyone that seeks to invade us or overcome us.
Since this right is one of the founding principals, it will be impossible to eliminate.
It was never an issue with these types of incidences until 4-20-1999 with the Columbine shootings.
The media attention worldwide was astonishing. This was something new that had never happened before on such a scale.
The media... and the attention given is a HUGE part of the recurrence of these types of crimes against humanity.
The other part is the Justice system's feeble demonstrations of "humanity" when dealing with violent crimes.
Let's punish them by keeping them in jail for years on end at the taxpayer expense and dispose of them in a somewhat "humane" manner instead of giving them what they deserve. Execution in a most painful manner.
Hang them, in private, without media sensationalism. Let them have the last few minutes of their lives writhing in excruciating misery.
Great post Phoon.
I see some denial of past to future indicators in this thread.. but i won't go there right now...
I think.. some people don't consider other peoples opinions and feelings enough... There's far too much I'M RIGHT and nothing you can say makes a shit of difference to me... and not enough co-operative discussion. We wonder why our Govt. can't get anything done.
To this end.. I wanted to say a couple of things.
1. I was wrong... Aspergers Syndrome has little to no history of violence, It was something I saw reported, and blurted out without doing any further research. For this, I apologize... to Wiz.. specifically.
2. I was wrong...Some further gun control legislation is more than likely warranted as long as it is aimed strictly at high firepower weapons only and goes hand in hand with laws that go right to the heart of gun security. Meaning, if you are going to own a gun legally.. and someone else uses it to kill or wound someone.. YOU are equally at fault for not adequately securing your weapon.
3. No child, under any circumstance should expire prematurely, by gun, or ANY other way.. and I would hope that some of you will take into account that while guns are in the news right now, many more children die, everyday, in many other just as heinous ways. If you care this much about children, take up the cause, be pro-active regarding drunk driving deaths, parental abuse, the teenage drug culture, gang violence... etc and don't use this tragedy to further political causes, while ignoring others.
IF.. we all worked together, within a CIVIL dialog... we could get a lot of this fixed.. but until we can recognize each others thoughts as legitimate.. on both sides... there really is no hope.
How about , in respect for the victims.. and in an attempt to somehow enjoy this Christmas season....we give it a rest for a while ? Let these good folks bury their young, and grieve, as we grieve as a nation....then, revisit this when the gun debate within the govt. inevitably comes around.
Merry Christmas to all... and a happy.. and safe New Year.
Karma and well put John.
"Circular reasoning works because" it allows you to ignore history.
I have read, listened and heard... I say only this:
One's life, thoughts and actions should not be determined by fear or anger.
For all those lost I say Kaddish which is the Hebrew prayer for the dead. It is a terrible prayer to have to say during the Festival of Light, Hanukkah.
Just a thought... instead of asking "Why"... perhaps we should ask, "How": How can we better ourselves, our communities and our world... in memory of all those lost worlds, and all those grieving for all reasons and losses.
Yes....it's almost as if people are ready to listen 'a little'....
It's all really about the proliferation of what are nothing more than TOTALLY inappropriate and unwarranted high-powered/repeater firearms in the hands of what amounts to incompetent civilians who fail to understand their potential for mass violence.
No 'right to bear arms', no matter how misconstrued [even by the courts] ever even imagined what would come to be the potential danger/lethality of a hand-held weapon within the 20th century.
I guess the total outlawing of 'spurt guns' was probably 'kind' of them .....20,000 rounds per minute meant spraying a stadium crowd would GUARANTEE multiple hits per person.
....but then....THE SACRED inalienable 'right' may yet see such in the hands of idiots as 'personal defense'.
This love-affair with the gun is almost unique to the US and yet the traditional 'home' of mass-shootings is....the US.
Unfortunately it appears that only those outside the US can see a link.
The reason I'm so bothered by the stupidity of poor/failed gun control is that I have friends in the US. I don't really want to see them ending up as collateral damage [or friendly fire] for the sake of flawed legislation.
A few...wish you would get that right. The vast majority of gun owners are very competent and responsible and fully/utterly understand what their guns are capable of and secure them in the proper manner...they are not idiots. Those people have no control over the small in comparison (to the vast majority of gun owners) portion of people that have gone fulltiltbozo and have gone on a rampage. And it's that vast majority that will not allow themselves to be disarmed. Mass violence can be achieved by a number of things not gun related...what are we going to do about that? Where does it end? Maybe we should just duct tape everyone's hands just to be safe.
OK...let them demonstrate their understanding/competence and/or social responsibility and voluntarily profer ALL their multi-shot semi-autos, etc for destruction.
'vast majority' is all well and good....them being competent and responsible and all...but we're talking tens of millions of gun owners.....and even 'the vast majority' subtracted from that leaves a SERIOUS SHIT_LOAD of fuckers out there who are GOING TO do more of this.
America has to live with these mass-shootings as a russian-roulette way of life. It is the price of your current 'freedom' to "bear arms".
Nothing any pro-gun person has said here in this thread is a solution to it....Mental Health? America can't even accept the idea of 'free health care' so you'll never have better mental care/support if you imagine the whakos are going to 'cure themselves'.
The ONLY way to prevent recurrence is to limit a gun-owner's capacity to mass-kill .... no matter whether he's a brain-dead fucker or the Pope....he NEEDS control. If that is across-the-board control then so be it. If it affects the 'responsible gun owner' as much as any other....well, tough tits, because IF it prevents further 6 year-olds dying in a classroom I SAY THAT's WORTH IT.
Anyone refusing to accept that level of control/restriction is by inaction allowing this potental to continue.
The 'control' you currently have IS NOT WORKING. You cannot refute that - there are too many bodies as evidence.
It's simple logic....so damn simple it defies comprehension that anyone cannot see it....
Nothing more true said in this entire thread. There in fact is nothing left to say Jafo, you've just said it all.
Also, my wife says "I like the cut of his jib" and to tell you that if you're ever in Canuckland you're to come over for a BBQ.......I bbq everything at all times of the year...(yes I'm the nutter out bbq'ing when it's -40 and blowing snow! )
Not gonna happen. They don't need to prove anything to anyone. They are already proving those things by securing their weapons. They cannot be held responsible/punished for the actions of a few. If we're gonna go down this road turn in your car to be crushed so no 6 year olds or whole classrooms can get run over by some whack job behind the wheel.
No argument there...we have a serious shitload of whack jobs running around thanks to our ridiculous health care plan called...."we can't afford to take care of these whack jobs so let them all go home and walk the streets unsupervised"...and those are just the ones we know about.
Again...turn in your car to be crushed so no 6 year olds or whole classrooms on they're way to a bus or anyone else for that matter can get run over by some whack job or drunk behind the wheel. Then we ban alcohol completely across the board...because obviously some people can't handle their alcohol and people are dying out there...
We have to live with a lot of things...but these mass shootings are not the norm here...anymore than elsewhere. Gun owners don't like what's happening...
And the plan any gun owner will tell you is stop selling guns to the damn wackos! Gun owners are not happy with what's happening either...but they aren't the ones doing the shooting. The live just fine with they're so-called love affair with fire arms until some whack job goes off his rocker and kills someone. And taking their guns away IS NOT going to stop 6 year old kids from some nut job that gets it in his head to kill them...1 or 20...it doesn't matter...1 is 1 to many...anyone would agree with that. Take away semi automatics and they'll carry 3 guns and still take out a bunch of people...or a gas can with an explosive attached to it...a pipe bomb...or whatever other idea they come up with...guns are not the only way of killing mass amounts of people. Ok...take away the guns...now gas cans & fuel are very easy to get...no waiting period...no background checks...and hop across to the next state will get you enough "harmless" explosives to blow the thing up. Damn...now I'll need a permit and background check to just get gas! Or buy a gas can! And on and on it goes...
Agreed...there needs to be better control of guns from beginning to end...I've always said that. But it's still not that simple. We pride our freedoms here and like it or not we're not going to start giving them up because of a few nut job...and we wouldn't expect any less from you...we'd fight for your freedom to live your life in a responsible manner of your choosing.
And the thing is Paul...we don't have the control your referring to...if we had it and not the government I'd be willing to bet these things would not be happening that often if at all. Tobacco kills more people each year than guns...they know it...they acknowledge it...but they still sell it. If it were up to me it would be banned.
Firearms in Norway are regulated by the Firearm Weapons Act, with a new secondary law in effect 1 July 2009 providing more detailed regulation. The act covers all firearms, air pressure weapons, and some "exotic arms" as the act defines. All weapons that would be regulated must have two things in common: they must eject a projectile mechanically and use some form of propellant to perform the ejection. The act includes military type weapons, flare guns, and easily manufactured replicas that can be converted to working firearms. Guns owned and operated under the responsibility of the armed forces and the police are excepted from the civilian weapons act.Yet Anders Behring Breivik was able to kill "69" people, "mostly teenagers". He was convicted of mass murder, "and" causing a fatal explosion, and terrorism in August 2012
... karma for you, V
Both sides need to compromise and have a civil dialog to get it right, gun ownership is important to Americans and they should have responsible access to weapons. A proper framework for ownership and gun control for the benefit of the nation is not going to be a easy task in the US, should not be rushed and everyone is not going to like it.
Just seen on TV that 71% of Americans like to have access to had guns, which is a good start for a framework to enable the people to do so ...
@ WebGizmos
Yes there has been gun-violence, even mass gun-violence in other nations other than the US.......so? The US claims the title of same in a very big way, and is also the only nation (of those first-world nations who have experienced such gun-violence) to be in such staunch denial about what it will take to really change that.
That is all that can and needs to be said. Everything else is just circular reasoning which does nothing but make the deaths of those innocent little ones be in vain. The US needs to stop with all the denial going on there, man up and change or more of the same is inevitable.
EDIT:
Also, in a previous exchange you suggested that most gun owners are responsible and secure their "hardware" so as to not expose their children etc. yet at the same time these weapons are "needed" for protection? I challenge that. If in fact an american dad's arsenal is actually secured in such as way as not to expose their family to its dangers, there is no possible way that that arsenal could be more effective at "saving a loved one" than my quick phonecall to the appropriate authorities. So again, why needlessly endanger your family and others (legitimate guns get stolen very often) for the chance that you may be able to run to your gun-safe, unlock it, get a gun, load it (with the ammo that should be stored seperately) and bring it to bear on the perceived threat before my phonecall summons the appropriate authority. Not to mention my phonecall does not run the risk of potentially shooting my own son in the face!
Next time I'm in Canada I'll hunt you down [metaphorically]....but be warned....that phrase 'put another shrimp on the barbie' is wrong on two counts. Aussies never cook shrimp on a barbie....and actually don't even call them shrimp.
Stupid ocker Hoges was actually Americanizing it so they'd understand it better....
By the time you make your phone call a gun could be produced in defense...for people here it's a no brainer.
Well again...the people not doing the shooting are the ones who are well aware of how bad the laws are...but they are in no position to change them. It's just like when the news reports how "Americans" have this big love affairs with oil...which is just a crock of shit...we have no other current choice...giver us a better choice and we'll gladly switch over. It's real easy to pick on Americans when your not getting the truth.
And I can promise you...if gun owners were the ones writing the laws things would be very different.
The bottom line though...man up all you want...stop denying all you want...nothing is going to change in regards to people getting killed...if some nut job is bent on killing a large group of people they will find another way to accomplish their goal. Your going after the wrong people as usual. Every time something like this happens the hysterics begin and everyone goes after the easy target. It's the damn gun owners...circular reasoning...yeah that's it.
And there is a huge difference between collectors and your average gun owner...anyone can buy a gun...not everyone should be sold one.
I see no reason for a person to have an automatic rifle to go hunting with. Ya shoot a dear and what will ya have left! The only reason for an automatic is to kill people. So ban them.
I have a winchester 308 (7.62)rifle, glock semi-auto 45 and a glock semi-auto 9mm. Do I want to give those up, NO. Am I going to go shoot up a school, NO.
Drunk drivers kill as many people as these rare shooting by idiots. Shall we bad cars and trucks or try and ban alcohol again.
I can apply for a liciense to buy a fully automatic weapon but I don't see the need. Like I said above, they are only good for one thing.
If there was a total ban on weapons, there would be a run on street pieces. And there will be plenty to buy. Would be just like drugs, sold on every corner.
And the use of the Glock semi-autos is.....?
....and they need to be self-loaders because?
5.9 in every 100,000 suicide by gun each year. There are 300 million Americans.... that's quite a useful tool for 18000 suicides p/a.
Every home should have one....
Like a mix-master...
Ya don't need a gun to kill yourself. And I do not feel for those people. Ya want to kill yourself then do it. Sure beats killing a bunch of children. Whats the difference in a semi auto and a six shooter. They both set up the next round. By the way, the 308 is a semi auto also. 5 round clip. I hate bolt action rifles. Takes your eye and weapon off the game. Forgot, your answer will be ya don't need a six shooter either.
Too right you are...
If you look up a bit earlier in the thread you'll see I once shot a 'possible' [that's 10 bulls] at 600 yards. [the 2 sighting shots were an inner and a bull].
This was done at the ripe old age of 16 ..... no scopes etc....just a plain peep sight ...single shot bolt action...no magazine....each bullet was removed from the box one at a time...oiled up with gluck loaded and fired...then repeat. 10 'kills' at a 1/3 of a mile.
You do NOT 'need' self-loading firearms at all.
In a war, yes....
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