Today the President, many other Americans and yours truly shed tears. It's beyond belief, beyond explanation and beyond any understanding.
Despite the grief felt after Columbine, Aurora and most recently Portland, today's "event" added a new dimension to the insanity which cavorts in our country. Twenty children aged 5-10. Teachers. Those who dedicate their lives to opening the minds and spirits of those precious, fragile sprouts.
Despite this newest horror, this appeared on Twitter:
Vipers: No compassion. No genuine human feeling. Sociopaths and psychopaths waiting to happen to some other group of people here or somewhere else. 'People'/airheads who interact with keyboards and touch screens who have no thought beyond, "entertain me". No, not vipers... vipers are snakes which do what they're supposed and succeed at doing in the context of normal Nature. These creatures are something else entirely.
If you see people crying or somber, nod your head to them. They are real people.
If you see people laughing and acting happy, ask them "Have you heard what happened in Newtown, Connecticut?". Odds on the answer will be, "Huh?". If after you tell them, they respond blithely: Run!
Run for your life.
Yeah, I just read that too Giz, like I said, every single day.
Here's another one: http://news.msn.com/us/okla-student-arrested-in-alleged-school-massacre-plot
People are just going insane. They need to stop selling violent video games for starters...back off on the damn cell phones that are making people anti-social and enough of these damn violent "reality" shows and even the ones just showing bad behavior.
I was just at a family dinner...talking to a young relative there and he was telling me how cool it was to play this one video game where you ran people over for points...I'm sure someone here knows the name of this game. But I have to ask why do we need these games and who the hell regulates this stuff? Just because you can create these games doesn't mean you should...and if I didn't know better I'd say they were purposely targeting violent people...knowing they will buy the game. We used to have a line we didn't cross when it came to what was acceptable but we seem to have crossed that line...kicked in the nitrous and never looked back...all for a dollar.
You know...I keep hearing about how smart we are...I'm sorry but I just don't see it.
I swear that one was on SVU... but, your observation about targeting violent people? Why not? They can use Google Analytics in many ways. Wouldn't surprise me. Which is why I made the comment about having a society which cares for its members rather than one which preys on them... the "Anything goes as long as we profit" thinking is beyond disgusting.
Your young relative needs more real world interaction. When we were young, I craved it... and that's the normal thing.
The process of socialization, disrupted by the gadgets is what produced normal people. Wait and see what you end up with now. If my parents found me playing a game where points were awarded for running people over, they'd have had me bundled up and in a shrink's office faster than the speed of light.
O tempore, O mores.
Oh, come on, Web...do you read what you write? It is FEAR that has you wanting to own a gun. That IS THE WHOLE POINT.
It's misplaced....its equivalent re cars would see you never driving on a road...or leaving your front door.
It's the same stupid reason your football players wear armour.... to protect themselves from the helmets they don't actually need. Not statistically...grid iron is no more dangerous a contact sport than rugby...and they don't armour up.
No, you feel you need a gun because someone else has one and he MIGHT try to attack/rob you. So, since you have one your neighbour thinks he must have one too... ad nauseum to the point everyone has one. Then of course...like penises....yours HAS TO BE BIGGER so you can snuff out the supposed criminal and collateral damage will ensure you get his car...his family...and half his neighbourhood....just to be sure.
It's cause and effect...and yes you ARE conditioned to the premise you MUST have a gun to feel safe....simply because the MAJORITY of the inhabitants of this planet do NOT feel that at all. It is specifically an American trait....inbred and inbued within your culture.
This gun culture has a by-product....the quite regular mass-killings by gun. Just because you claim to be level-headed and sane does NOT guarantee you are a responsible gun owner. Circumstances change. One day you make a mistake and someone gets YOUR gun and does something you regret for an eternity. Too late.
And it is NOT semantics to correct the statement 'right to own a gun'. There IS NO 'right', and certainly NOT in that Constitution.
Guns? Who needs them...
Yes I do read what I write...and I don't live in fear. I've shot guns ever since I was a kid...so me having a gun was a by-product of my childhood and being around cops most of my young life. My step father was a police officer and we lived right next to a shooting range for about 6 years. I even taught how to handle a weapon on the "Police Athletic League." For me having a gun was second nature, a sport, and because I liked the power of the gun...each one is different...and no not in some machismo way. I learned everything I could about weapons and have a very healthy respect for them. There was never a "need' for a gun...it was just always there...nor do I feel some need to keep up with Jones'. And a lot of people I know who are still gun owners are the same way. And you would never know they owned so much as a bullet...they don't advertise it...if you went to their house you would never see a gun...they don't even talk about them...there is no fear. You guys are taking a few unhealthy unbalanced people...out of millions of gun owners...and painting them all with a brush of living in fear...being irresponsible nut jobs that somehow can't make a rational decision to buy a gun for reasons other than fear...I'm sorry Paul...but that just isn't so.
And now I'm starting to feel insulted here. Despite what you've been told or conditioned to think about Americans we are not all mindless dolts that can't make rational decisions and do it responsibly. If I ever decide to own a gun in the future it will not be out of fear...it will be because I want one or out of necessity.
Quite frankly I find all this fear mongering quite silly and reasons other people "think" I would own a gun ridiculous and hysterical. And at 6 ft 4 and 250 lbs I feel pretty safe...most people don't bother me and the ones that do don't for very long. And everything your claiming as the reason I would want a gun is way off base. I...do not...live...in fear...of anything. I never had a "need" for a gun...I've always felt quite safe. I am not conditioned like most of the masses are...I am not a lemming...I was a smart kid and saw what was happening with people being conditioned to do things a certain way and wanted nothing to do with it...I wanted to live life on my terms and continue doing that...I'm not brand label oriented...I don't buy things just because everyone else is doing it. I don't have a problem with guns...it's the people I have a problem with...but not in a way that I can't deal with it...I just ignore it.
And yes Paul...I am or at least I was a very extremely responsible gun owner (don't own a single gun now)...and despite what you may think I have no need to be waving my penis around to prove anything to anyone. I'm quite comfortable with who I am and what I'm capable of. And you can rest assured I will never be a pissed off postal worker or feel some need to take anger out on innocent civilians of any age, race, or gender.
And mass killings...they happen all over the world. Even in places with strict gun laws.
I don't have much to add to this discussion, other than I completely agree with anyone who said that the United States needs more mental health facilities and easier access to them. I have no real opinion on the gun control and/or gun ban side of the issue, because I see a direct parallel when you apply that with the drug and/or substance abuse issue (which accounts for huge amounts of people killed in car accidents) -- "banning" something doesn't hit at the heart of the issue -- people who want to obtain banned items find a way of obtaining those items and the fact that they are banned means a whole other level of criminal element enters the equation because of the lucrativeness of dealing in banned items, and it punishes the people who legitimately own guns for either sport, protection or business (I lived in rural Kansas for a while and when you have to put your cow down or something like that, there isn't always a vet around to do it for you).
The heart of the problem, as I see it, is a real lack of easy access to adequate mental health for ALL in this country. If mental health were a basic human right, some of the stigma of seeking help would be eased; more people would be aware of what to look for in themselves and others. As the parent of an adult child with psychiatric issues, I can tell you first hand about the nightmare trying to get help for your adult child can be! "Free" care for indigents is nothing more than a dispensary for SSRI's which only address a small portion of the illness. Getting actual therapy is impossible unless the patient is covered by an expensive insurance policy. Even when it IS covered, it's usually just 6-8 visits, which is not enough to help someone who is seriously messed up.
I cried MORE when I read this article than I did when I heard about the tragedy in Connecticut: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
Karen, read that this morning. Unbelievable. Poor woman. Poor child.
Giz... You grew up with guns, next to a shooting range, etc. but you weren't conditioned/desensitized to guns? Really? Never mind all the rest of the contradictions in what you wrote... just that one.
That alone, Giz. Hour after hour, day after day, year after year you were were exposed to guns. I wasn't. Maybe because I went through a war and ER's and have used and seen guns the way I did, I feel the way I do, and the differences in our exposures to them account for the way we each feel.
I do think there should be a 28th Amendment: A really short one and really easy to understand one, though:
"The right of children to grow up shall not be abridged: This amendment supercedes the Second Amendment."
Can anyone tell me that the Second Amendment is more important than a child's right to grow up?
That's kind of melodramatic. More children are killed in car accidents than by guns, (as vStyler mentioned much earlier in the thread) but we don't outlaw cars because of it. In a just world, EVERY child would grow up, healthy, happy, loved, provided for -- but we don't live in a just world; there is no such thing as a just world. Even if we got rid of every man-made danger to children, there would still be natural disasters like tsunamis that take out whole areas of the landscape with no regard for what age group happens to be residing there.
I grew up in a home that included gun owners. My father (may he rest in peace), was an avid hunter, as was my brother. I was not. When my cat got her legs amputated by the next-door farmer's plow in the field across from our house and she came crawling back, I was spared the traumatic witnessing of that horror because my father and brother had guns and put Cocoa our of her misery before I was aware of it. Sometimes the second amendment, in the hands of a wise parent MEANS that a child grows up -- I think pretty much all of us have either seen "Old Yellar" or at least know of the plot line. A boy grows up, because he experiences an adult-life problem and has to deal with it like a man. Most of us live in urban areas now and the need for that type of access to guns is diminished but not to the point that we need to abolish the second amendment.
Come on Web, you're still not reading your own posts....
Karen....don't forget....even when you have to 'put down a cow' [and you don't have a cattle bolt] you won't need that AK-47 ....not unless you're a really pathetic shot....
Any miss-read 2nd Amendment doesn't justify the proliferation of automatic and semi automatic weapons.....even assuming it does condone private gun ownership.
Re 'putting down cattle'....mate of mine was pensioned out of the Police force after being TOLD by the RSPCA to shoot all the cattle in a truck at an RTA .... he wanted to get back to the station to grab a .22 ....they said no...do it with what you have...and that was a .38 and 7.62 rifle. In an enclosed space his hearing was permanently damaged.
There are legitimate uses for firearms....but arming the majority of citizenry of a country is not one of them.
That's simply pathetic. Guns are designed ONLY TO KILL. Cars are designed to get people from A to point B. Melodramatic? I think not. It puts the proper light on this ridiculous argument.
Please read what I said about conditioning. Also, please read that I agreed that farmers and those who have to hunt for food for their tables should have rifles. Not AK-47's nor M-16's,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Those two tables....you can compare the US to AUS, for example....AUS has 1/6 the gun ownership rate and you are nine times LESS likely to be killed by one there.
Yes, the gun total doesn't take into account one person having multiples...but that same approximation would apply to either country.
Simple stats to determine which is the safer country...
Vehicular fatalities per capita aren't likely to be too dissimilar....road standards, etc are much alike.
There's also another interesting conclusion that can be made....as both countries have 'reasonable' gun-purchase restrictions...and both countries have similar societal 'issues' leading to abherent behaviour and/or mental illness....
....yep, you are 6 times more likely to come across a NUTTER with a gun in the US.
As someone who has played BOTH.. I can tell u from actual experience... NFL football is a more violent sport... if they played NFL football without armor, with the 2012 speed and power of the players...people would be dying all over the place... and really the two sports are completely different, played in different ways...and cannot be legitimately compared.
I'm British, i LOVE rugby.. but.. imo.. to play NFL rules football without protection wouldn't even be possible without serious injury in the league every single week.
Funny thing, but the only ex Rugby or Aussie rules players you EVER see in the NFL, are kickers. You don't see star athletes in Australian rules or Rugby coming to the States and making the 'easy money' in the NFL
I'm guessing.. you have never actually played American football Jafo.
Nah ....the US breeds enough grunts as it is to do the 'dumb' bit....but imports the peeps with actual skill....that can stick a ball where it's needed....
Curiously the US also checked out Brett Lee ...re rounders....er ...baseball ....cos he can just about bowl a ball faster than the average chucker can chuck one....
....and no, I don't play any ball games....I'm sadly endowed with too much intelligence to want to....
I just discussed the gun control/Connecticut massacre issue with my husband (crazy...I thought we had discussed every issue under the sun in the past 12 years) - his answer was brilliant. We need to have police at every school. He informed me that every Tulsa school entry is guarded by metal detectors and there's a branch of the Tulsa police specifically dedicated to Tulsa Public Schools. Think about it...just about every public event we have in this country is guarded by armed security (football games, concerts, shopping malls, airports) - why shouldn't we be protecting our most vulnerable citizenry with as much zeal as we do those places? Perhaps the amount of bullying that goes on in schools would decrease, as a side benefit, if schools were patrolled by armed guards. It's brilliant!
Well, The idea is certainly not a new one...but...
1. I Don't know if we want our schools to start looking and functioning like prisons but it may come to that unfortunately.
2. Washington D.C and Detroit are crawling with armed police and have the highest crime rates in the country.
and 3. Most school districts are already running budget deficits and many of them cannot afford even one full time security guard, or modern electronic security systems. Hell, some of them can't afford heat, school supplies, food etc.. Most of what you listed, malls, games, concerts, etc.. are privatized.
One of these days the people of this country will realize we can't tax and spend our way out of our nationwide deficits. I guess its going to take four more years of this nonsense, when inflation is thru the roof, unemployment 30%, the deficit is 20 trillion and people are rioting in the streets before they will go to the polls and get some fiscally responsible politicians to fix things.
The mental health system also will not be improved until then.
Not a new idea, Karen. About the financial stuff John's correct... reallocating resources is one solution...anything but taking away my gun!
Not only here. Here's a similar case in China. Since China has laws against private citizens owning guns, the perp used a knife.
They at least understand that it's a mental health issue.
This says it all, and I lived about a 2 hours drive. they have brought gun laws in Tasmania Australia since this IDIOT done this, now the only people are allowed to have guns are Farmers and they must be registered, cops and security guards but if you have broken the law or have a criminal history you are not allowed to have a gun or license
Graphic police footage showing the aftermath of the 1996 Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania has been posted on the internet.
The footage was part of a 12-minute police training video and shows images of some of the victims of the massacre, when Martin Bryant shot dead 35 people at the historic site.
The entire video has been posted on the social networking site Facebook while parts of the tape have been uploaded to YouTube.
Tasmanian police say they have been flooded with calls from distressed residents and they have contacted victims of the massacre.
Facebook and YouTube have been contacted in an attempt to remove the video and police are investigating the source.
They believe it is 'almost impossible' to stop the spread of the video which is now appearing in edited forms across the web.
Deputy Commissioner Scott Tilyard says it is not the first time the training tape been posted on the internet.
They first became aware of the video online in February.]
State laws govern the possession and use of firearms in Australia. These laws were largely aligned under the 1996 National Agreement on Firearms. Anyone wishing to possess or use a firearm must have a Firearms Licence and, with some exceptions, be over the age of 18. Owners must have secure storage for their firearms.
Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g., Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defence.[2]
Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person's registered firearm of the same category.
Firearms in Australia are grouped into Categories with different levels of control. The categories are:
Certain Antique firearms can in some states be legally held without licences. In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.
All single-shot muzzleloading firearms manufactured before 1 January 1901 are considered antique firearms. Four states require licences for antique percussion revolvers and cartridge repeating firearms, but in Queensland and Victoria a person may possess such a firearm without a licence, so long as the firearm is registered (percussion revolvers require a license in Victoria).
Australia has very tight restrictions on items which are far less controlled in comparable societies such as the UK. Air pistols, elsewhere unrestricted, are as difficult to get as centrefire and rimfire handguns, and low-powered airguns are as difficult as cartridge arms to license. Airsoft guns are banned in all states and non-firing replicas banned in most. Suppressors (or 'silencers') which are legal in the UK and New Zealand, are extremely restricted in Australia to a few government bodies
The gun culture in America existed before the constitution. We have a constitution today bought with the lives of private citizens owning guns, ironic isn't it.
There was no such gun culture before the Constitution, ernie leo. Gun ownership in America far exceeds anywhere else on earth. The reasons cited are: Fear of criminals (although the guns at home supply them and harm far more family members than criminals), hunting and sport. Big problem: Guns don't know the difference between hunting, sport or self defense. All they seem to know how to do is kill.
People had weapons as part of a similar reserve system as the one Israel has. That has changed. They also had weapons to fend off attacks from Native Americans (which evolved into exterminating them), the British and the French. Since the War of 1812, we haven't had that worry). Current America is radically different from those times. Time to adjust, no?
Oh yes... those were my relatives... and America was given an instrument which could evolve and change with time. It isn't a holy relic... it's supposed to be a living document.
Last live amunition I actually held in my hot little hands was 9mm teflon-coated [cop killers] designed to penetrate body armour, and available for use by Armoured Car crews who can 'expect' to be confronted by typically more dangerous critters than the average cop needs to deal with. The owner coincidentally was from Tassie...and even though fully licenced in Tas for concealed weapons, etc. he was required to reapply in Vic when he moved here....which ended up as a pain because there's no record of his birth certificate [it happens]...
Yes...I don't have one now...but in the "future" one reason to buy one "may" be out of necessity. The world is rapidly changing...and if I see things are getting to the point where there might be a threat...perceived or otherwise...I sure as hell am not going to stand here with my pecker in my hand and not buy a gun because some people choose to live in fear or assign some hysterical stigma to a gun. I would buy one hoping to never have to use it...but if it comes down to me and my family over a criminal with a gun...he's going down. Now if you want to call that fear be my guest. I just don't see this as being fearful of anything...it's being prepared for a real and possible scenario. Luckily I live in an area that hasn't seen home invasions...so the need isn't there right now. I'd sure as hell not go to war without a weapon...this is no different. Sure...I could just use harsh language and wave my big pecker at them, but somehow I just don't think that would be enough.
Bottom line is I'd do whatever I had to to protect my family or myself if I felt there could be a threat...perceived or otherwise...and the decision on how to best go about that is mine alone as well as the consequences. If you choose harsh language that's up to you...I would choose to not gamble with their lives...and in the end I can always sell the gun with my family intact and have a laugh over my possible momentary lapse in reason. I'd choose being prepared over not being.
What's with this need to be conditioned or desensitized to a gun. It's a piece of metal that shoots bullets. You either respect that or you don't. I don't need therapy to handle a gun or counseling after I shot one. If your to weak to understand and respect a gun you shouldn't touch one. And I really don't need to justify my handling or use of a gun to anyone. I don't have a problem with it...you obviously do.
Really!? Look...you obviously had a bad experience or something with guns...I didn't...deal with it. I grew up with a healthy respect for guns and what they can do. I do not now nor have I ever thought of them as nothing more than a tool or something to use as sport. Now...I'm sorry as hell that there is idiots in the world that can't deal with life to the point of doing something as cowardly as killing another human being out of spite for his/her unhappy life...I don't have that problem. I've got numerous reasons to be angry...but I've never felt the need to take out a bunch of people because of it.
Maybe if doctors stopped putting themselves on pedestals and started charging people a more realistic amount of money for guessing...then maybe the mental cases could get some help. It's not like your gonna run out of patients. Now...if your really serious about your rants here then you need to open a clinic and start helping these mentally unbalanced people. Here's your chance to make a difference.
And please by all means point out my contradictions. On second thought don't bother. It's just getting insulting now...and after this I'm done here...it's just going round and round and getting pointless...I've made my stance known...I stand by what I said...now you all have to deal with it. I have a clean and clear conscious.
Can we please be a bit more considerate in our choice of words!? Just because you "think" your in the right doesn't mean you are or give you some right to insult people. Pathetic? Melodramatic? And of course your not being any of those are you Doc...yeah right. You need to be more respectful and considerate.
Karen stated a "fact"...to bad if it doesn't fit into your argument, instead you chose to ignore it or brush aside since you obviously have no concern over her concerns...the "fact" remains that people are killed by all kinds of things...cars being one of them...that can be and are used as weapons. Just because a car wasn't designed to kill doesn't mean it can't and it has been used just for that reason. Again...humans are the problem...not guns.
Nope. The other folks did. It was a war.
Your anger is evident. Your fight is with the system and with other people.
But then...it's ok for you to do.
As for the rest of your diatribe? As I said... pointless to show you where guns are a threat. You can't see it? Too bad. Cars? Really?
Adios. I'm gone.
.. AND PROTECT.
Quite Ironic to see the Pres. making his speech tonight... surrounded by Secret service agents carrying automatic Weapons... to protect him from mentally ill people who want to harm him.
Are they going to follow everyone else around when everyone's right to personal protection has been taken away from them? Which.. is.. exactly.. what he wants.
From a Yahoo News commenter:
" And here comes the gungrabbing Marxist president to the rescue after all his faux crocodile tears for the cameras of the media pimps. You know what the real problem is? It isn't firearms which have existed in great numbers since before the official founding of America. If you consider the first primary school education mass killings didn't occur until 1974 it's pretty clear that it's a more permissive and liberal society that has created narcissistic sociopaths that have confused moral license for liberty and believe they are entitled to other people's lives, liberties and wealth. Abortion, gun grabbers, and Occupy Wall Street thuggery are exhibits one, two and three. The problem isn't guns, it's the culture of violence compliments of liberal narcissism, Hollywood and media pornsters which pushes those "on the edge" to the tipping point. It's many factors, but post-modern "progressive" culture only needs to look in the mirror to see their part in these kinds of atrocities which weren't happening until after the explosion of radical liberalism in the 1960s."
I believe there would be a civil war in this country before innocent, law abiding Americans will allow the minority liberal cause to take their rights away from them.
Note. No offense Doc.. but I have to agree, sometimes you do come off as condescending, righteous, know-it-all'y? You might step back just a little and choose to modify how you make some of your points.
There are two sides to every story.
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