Today the President, many other Americans and yours truly shed tears. It's beyond belief, beyond explanation and beyond any understanding.
Despite the grief felt after Columbine, Aurora and most recently Portland, today's "event" added a new dimension to the insanity which cavorts in our country. Twenty children aged 5-10. Teachers. Those who dedicate their lives to opening the minds and spirits of those precious, fragile sprouts.
Despite this newest horror, this appeared on Twitter:
Vipers: No compassion. No genuine human feeling. Sociopaths and psychopaths waiting to happen to some other group of people here or somewhere else. 'People'/airheads who interact with keyboards and touch screens who have no thought beyond, "entertain me". No, not vipers... vipers are snakes which do what they're supposed and succeed at doing in the context of normal Nature. These creatures are something else entirely.
If you see people crying or somber, nod your head to them. They are real people.
If you see people laughing and acting happy, ask them "Have you heard what happened in Newtown, Connecticut?". Odds on the answer will be, "Huh?". If after you tell them, they respond blithely: Run!
Run for your life.
Its looking more and more like this kid was mentally ill, perhaps autistic, personality disorder.. etc etc...(latest reports) and altho it doesn't excuse his actions, it more than likely contributed to them,
Should he have had access to guns? of course not.. was his mother probably at fault for not securing them, probably... she paid the price.
Would he have found a way to kill people without a gun? Who knows.. Hard to believe he wouldn't have,
I'm not against finding a way to keep guns out of the hands of people who don't need to be around them, I am against trampling the constitutional rights of people who have done nothing to have their right to protect themselves taken from them.
My argument in NO way tries to diminish the memory of those who lost their lives, I have been grieving all day.
I just tend to look at the bigger picture before making knee-jerk reactions that can cause more harm than good.
Perhaps you live in a secluded, gated community....... it happens.. all day, everyday in all areas of the country... along with carjackings, armed robberies, burglaries, attempted murders, murders, rape, etc etc et cetera. Just because you haven't been victimized, doesn't mean you won't be.
Source please. (also, please see Hankers source)
Even if you can produce some stat on that, which, i actually doubt.. Its not the number of instances that proves anything, In communities where legal gun-owners are prevalent.. crime is just.. lower... because criminals stay out of communities known to be armed.. ergo.. less home invasions.
Krav-maga.. will not stop a bullet.
I was going to try to write something very thoughtful and yes maybe even thought provoking but you folks are hitting on all the correct points in the discussion.
I find that I am left with the same thought I have whenever something tragic like this happens. Mankind or humans have walked the Earth for more than 2000 years and we have yet to figure it out and unfortunatly it doesn't look like it is going to happend any time soon. So sad.
You didn't read/comprehend, John.
....I knew someone wouldn't.
Again....
Just one less gun in the world is one less gun that can be used to do more of this.
It is not debatable. It is a truism.
All that's needed is for there to be a President with sufficient balls to mandate control and a penalty for violation as summary execution.
It will not happen because there will be NO President ever elected with the balls to face the 'gun lobby'.
...and there will always be people [pro-gun] who will expound all sorts of data about why it wouldn't work.
...yet the alternative certainly has a high mortality rate amongst innocents.
Unfortunately, 20 kids and 6 other adults also "paid the price". Her house/possessions should be sold to pay the funeral expenses.
Right. From your local rent a tank. I can't believe you actually think that.
As I wrote:
A citizen has the right in the framework of the armed forces/police. The Second Amendment was written when invasion was a real danger. It ain't anymore. As for wacko far extreme right wing Gov't. take over paranoia? It's just that.
Look it up yourself, John. I'm not your research ass't.
Sorry...that just isn't true. In fact thanks to our government it has become more real and possible. And muskets!?...please! We're in the 20th century now.
I don't own a gun but I am pro gun ownership...however I am also pro gun "control" which is not to say that I'm against anyone owning a gun.
There just needs to be far better control over guns from production to destruction.
Anyone buying a gun should be required (or no gun purchase will be allowed) to go to some sort of gun training course at the very least once a month where they can actually shoot the gun. To many people buy guns and never fire them and you can't understand the power of a gun until you have fired it....this is not video game or action TV. If anyone fails to do this the gun must be turned in until you show willingness to comply with the responsibility of gun ownership.
If at any time in the future you decide you no longer want the gun...you cannot under penalty of law sell the gun to anyone other than a licensed gun shop...and form must be filled out and signed by both parties showing that the gun has not been stolen and/or sold to a private party...and has been taken out of circulation.
Any gun in the home that is not being used "must" be secured at all times to not only prevent unauthorized use but theft as well...failure to comply will result in hefty fines and/or prison time. Being placed under the bed or any other non secure place is not acceptable. If any gun in your possession should happen to get stolen due to your failure to secure it properly...there will be hefty fines and/or prison time involved...and if the gun in used in a crime resulting in death you will share some of the blame as well.
These are only a few things that can be done to prevent guns getting into the wrong hands and make people more responsible...but as we have seen over and over again...even sane people can snap. So I guess yearly psychological screening would also be in order or every 6 months...shouldn't be to much to ask to save a life.
None of the above intrude on anyone's right to own a gun...they just make you more responsible for owning one. The life you save may be your own.
And come Dec 21st...you may just wish you had a gun when all the nutjobs come out believing it's the end.
When I lived in the UK we went thru' Hungerford and Dunblane and the government acted decisively........
Now I live in the US and I hope the US government wakes up and does some of the same.............I know the starting point over here is a lot more complex however more innocent children's lives were lost today............enough is enough, regardless of what side of the fence you are on.
I get it... I just don't agree.... and you didn't answer my questions...as I suspected you wouldn't.
It's easy to find reasons for gun control, not so easy to find justification for taking away innocent peoples RIGHT to protect themselves, They aren't the ones running around shooting children.
Execution for owning a gun?
Probably aren't hordes of people invading homes in Palm beach... yet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jey1pBl8AY
I can't force anyone to acknowledge the obvious.
Thought so. Saying something is FACT.. doesn't hold up well when one can't produce.. the Facts.
Again.. refer to Hankers link... and refute it.. Anything else.. is whistling Dixie.
Look.. can ANYONE deny that more innocents are killed by illegal guns than legal ones????
and if So.. what good is taking guns out of the hands of legal owners??
Execution for being in possession of one without legal authority to do so...if there were to be gun prohibition.
More people are killed by guns than by people without them holding up a finger and going "bang".
Outside of specifically the military, security and police there should be no such thing as a 'legal gun'.
IF and it's a big 'if' guns were 'owned for protection' why pray tell are there all these high powered automatics etc in 'private ownership'?
Anyone planning to 'protect oneself' from a distance of half a mile against hordes of human vermin?
It's frankly absurd, and yet there are all these sane/sensible/logical people defending ownership....
It's pointless debating. Gun Owners are right...they have their right....just too bad people have to die for this 'right'.
I have stated the bleedingly obvious....so there's nothing more to add.
[I'll just go on continuing to oversee people's rights here to voice their opinions, no matter how stupid I think they are]....
It's almost like gun control advocates just plain, flat out, refuse to read.. reasonable arguments from the other side.
All i know is this..I don't like guns.. AT ALL...I'm against assault weapons, (one wasn't used today as far as I know) but... if someone is coming at me with a gun... I want to be able to defend myself.
I suppose some of you believe pepper spray is a valid option.
People die EVERYday.. from my aforementioned non-gun related methods... yet... not a peep, from anyone.. about it.
This nut-job was gonna hurt people.. with, or without a gun.
You still didn't answer my simple questions...
and cmon.. playing the stupid card?... surely that's beneath you.
In 2009, a total of 1,314 children age 14 and younger were killed in motor vehicle traffic crashes. Of those 1,314 fatalities, 181 (14%) occurred in alcohol-impaired driving crashes. Out of those 181 deaths, 92 (51%) were occupants of a vehicle with a driver who had a BAC level of .08 or higher, and another 27 children (15%) were pedestrians or pedalcyclists struck by drivers with a BAC of .08 or higher.
Not to diminish.. but.....One year...One country... one way of being killed. 1,314... a bit more than 20. Why aren't you railing against this?
I'm FAR more worried about one of MY kids being hurt of killed by a drunk, than I am a maniac.
Bad people, will continue to do bad things, lets work on fixing THAT.. before we go blaming their weapon of choice.
If you can find a way to eliminate possession of guns by bad people, while not infringing on the rights of innocents to protect themselves from said bad people...
.. I'm on board.
Probably the biggest killers of children in Oz are those people who leave their kids in cars on a 30 degree day ....that's 47 in 10 minutes and 50-something in 20.
...and those who manage to back over their kids in 4 wheel drives [SUVs] cos they can't see them.
....and drowning...cos parents don't keep watch.
Stupid parents, not guns.
Classic Archie...lol.
But seriously, RIP, little ones. Our world is fast becoming a shithole which you no longer have to endure.
I regret you were cut so short, not having the chance to experience a good long life. Yet am glad you don't have to endure the upcoming failure of society as a whole.
I am as patriotic as the next guy, but this country is going down, and this is only the beginning.
At the risk of alienating a few here... but it needs to be said.
That's it... right there! NO GUNS OUTSIDE OF THE MILITARY, SECURITY or POLICE... PERIOD. But what about the poor hunters? Fuck the hunters! There's enough butchers around if you want/need meat... and there's NO SPORT in taking a high powered rifle to an animal that can't even throw stones back to defend itself.
As for the bullshit argument about criminals and guns and self defence, etc, if there are NO guns in the wild AT ALL, people will have NO NEED to defend themselves with guns against guns. Simply, the threat would cease to exist if NOBODY can access guns
To implment this NO GUN policy, NO non-miltary firearms would be produced EVER AGAIN and ALL gun stores would be CLOSED permanently. It's as simple as that.
As for the bullshit argument about guns being necessary because of black market and illegal/non-licensed guns, there will always be an element who don't comply, but the 150,000,000 other guns no longer in circulation means fewer gun related deaths... fewer senseless and unfathomable tragedies such as this one.
Had all of the above been put in place some years ago, this man would not have been able to access a gun to slaughter 27 innocents. And as more and more of these illegal firearms are taken out of circulation, as they inevitably would be, the fewer and fewer guns in the hands of those criminals who don't comply. Probem solved!
As for the bullshit argument "I am a responsible citizen and it is MY right to bear arms", it is that very same thinking and assumed 'right' that puts a gun in the hands of the extremely unbalanced, with multiple personality disorders and an inferiority complex, psychopath next door. In other words, you can't have your cake AND EAT it too... meaning, if you don't want the armed and extremely unhinged effwit going into a school near you, with a mind to massacre a bunch of innocent kids, then YOU have to give up that fucked up 'right' to bear arms to prevent it.
As for the bullsit argument that "knives and spears kill people too", yes, but not to the same extreme as guns. Like when was the last time you read/heard of some deranged mass murderer going on a wholesale killing spree, armed only with a knife and/or spear? When was the last time you heard about some lunatic pulling out a knife in church and killing 8 people before he was overpowered and stopped? Frankly, you haven't... and you won't, but you see/hear/read about gun related massacres all the time.
A line has to be drawn and Americans have to have the balls to draw it.
Yeah, I'm passionate about taking firearms out of the hands of ordinary civilians.... ALL civilians, because I was aged 11 and saw the senseless snuffing out of a life when a garage owner I knew had the entire side of his head blown away by a shotgun. Nobody should ever have to witness that, least of all a child... and the pro-gun attitude puts children in harm's way, if not directly by the flying bullets, then by the associated trauma of gun violence and needless and senseless gun deaths. I dare anyone to tell me I'm wrong on that score... because I'm not.
Remember the events of July 22 in Norway last year? Norway isn't a traditional gun-toting country......hell the police aren't even armed! I still feel safer here than any other place in the world, but as you can see, sick people will still get bombs/guns no matter what the weapons policy of the country is.
Which is what I've been saying. Unlicensed gun? Adios Saudi style. Look at my earlier comments.
Sorry, John: You can go on living in fear of home, or alien invasion. Whatever. No one has to "prove" anything to you.
I want the guns gone. And it'll be the gun freaks who cause it. How sweet it is.
Giz: If you bothered to read my earlier comments, you'd see what you wrote.
And yes. I want nothing more lethal than a spoon in the hands of crazy, stupid, angry and desperate people.
An end to the "Merchants of death" and their damned weapons.
Tim:
We all remember. John would say, one man with a gun could have stopped that." No. One policeman. One Doctor, perhaps.
The fact that no system is perfect doesn't mean one should not be implemented. It means one should be implemented and refined.
If that crazy didn't have the means to kill large numbers with automatic weapons, and had only a spoon, how many would have died?
The guns have to go, and people need to grow a spine and report when a person starts throwing mental health problem signs.
People also need to get treated WITHOUT STIGMA. With or without insurance or money. An end to that variety of violence which might well be the worst form of it, as well!
[sorry this is a separate post - can't access the edit buttons with the iPad]
what good is taking guns out of the hands of legal owners??[/quote]
this maybe....
http://www.news24.com/World/News/Dad-shoots-son-by-accident-20121209
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2210409/Tragedy-father-shoots-dead-15-year-old-burglar-realises-OWN-SON.html
just two I've read recently of many....and no less tragic than when done en masse.
[quote who="Wizard1956" reply="24" id="3294885"]Coming from a former Penal Colony, I'm not surprised you down-unders have trouble grasping "rights" and "personal freedoms"
wow...
I guess we're the lucky country.... I have no desire or need to own a gun to feel safe in my home or travelling on public transport....
we do have a measure of increased illegal gun activity here in Sydney....but as it's mostly the rival drug and bikie gangs out west popping each other off...I just consider they're doing a public service...
what happened in that school is so desperately sickening and sad....as a human being, I like to think it could only have been mental illness....if that is so...what a pity his mum kept guns around, if that was the case...
The only people who should have access to guns besides police, military and security protection, are country folk who have to keep rabbit and fox numbers down and put down the occasional animal....and people in gun clubs using them for target sport..... Other than that...no place for them in our little penal colony society...
your "personal freedoms" don't serve you well...
Absolutely correct.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-kellermann.htm
JUST stop the weapon production and sale! No one has the balls to take on the NRA crazies.
Fact: Where guns are controlled, there are far fewer murders by gun. Fact: Where mental health care is equal to physical health care and both are openly available to all, there are fewer cases of mass murder.
Correct.
And as for Australia having been started as a penal colony, so what? I don't give a damn how it was started...I'm just grateful as hell they did! When you have time read about the transports and how they ended the incredible death rate...the men with the guns didn't give a damn about delivering tiny boatloads until they changed the system to pay only for live bodies. Lesson: Pay for the guns to be turned in. Don't charge people - encourage and reward them for doing right. Punish them when they're caught with unlicensed ones.
Just look at the continent - home to wonderful people and incredible beauty. Criminality (or some peoples' definition of it) IS NOT genetic. Those "criminals" were by and large people who were debtors: Victims of predatory economic practices. To imply they are somehow defective is beyond nonsense. It's ridiculous Soviet Lysenkoism. Utter and complete tripe.
Their societal preferences are not out of line. They don't march around toting guns and weapons of mass destruction. We do. The cops of the world.
Stop the predation on others. Stop the violence.
Do more guns equate to security? No. They equate to more INSECURITY. They are an implicit threat. They tell another person, "I can kill you." That is NOT the way to live in peace. Being a decent human being and making sure the society you live in acts decently towards others is the way to peace.
Will there be missed cases? Yes. Some will result in violence. The way to decrease that is through the elimination of the means to commit mass murder and if it's one gun at a time and one law ensuring availability and equality as well as access to mental health treatment, so be it.
"My gun is bigger than yours" only ensures more madness. Fear engenders aggression.
Once more:
Perhaps a jet airliner would be your weapon of choice? Land mines? IED's? Fertilizer and diesel oil? Maybe just good old sticks and rocks? Whatever.
The problem is people, not weapons. It wouldn't have mattered if a stolen school bus plowed them down. The same results could have been achieved if they were all burned to death. Home-made poison gas would have done the job. All of these are more "extreme" than guns. Should we ban fire, chemistry, and school busses? No matter what the method used, dead is dead.
Using a tragedy such as this to stand on an anti-gun soapbox is pointless. My point is, of all the mass-murderers throughout history, few used a firearm. For a little current history of my home state:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/26/illinois-mental-health-fa_n_1234332.html
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/04/17/chicago-closing-half-its-mental-health-clinics/
http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-muckrakers/2012/07/as-mental-health-facilities-close-bill-awaiting-quinns-signature-to-add-safeguards-to-protect-patients/
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=204004
This needs fixing, not the "gun issue"
A few of you miss the entire meaning of the Second Amendment; Give Police, the Army and Security the guns you say. Take them away from law-abiding citizens. Then all you need is control of those elements and the game is over.
It was done in Germany. We all know how that turned out.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1791/did-hitler-ban-gun-ownership
Madmen care not for laws, public opinions or rights, yours or mine.
I'm done, debate what you want.
I hate being able to see both sides of an argument. IMO...the second amendment was written long before there were local police departments, i.e militias, and back then it was a necessary evil. Today however the world is a far different place. Everyone without exception has a right, not a constitutional right but a personal right or god given if you go that way, to defend hearth and home. Eliminating all guns outside of the military/law enforcement regime will never happen because of the NRA and its proponents who have a lot of political clout. The president on down will not take on the NRA because that particular self interest group or special interest depending on how you perceive them, will use that clout and force you to back down. In my sixty years on this Earth I've seen all of that. I didn't serve in the military but I have a deep respect for the men and women who serve to protect this country.
In Pa. it is against the law to defend yourself, sounds stupid right, but its true. There was an instance during a home invasion where the home owner shot and seriously wounded the criminal. Said criminal successfully sued the homeowner for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. You can go to jail for defending yourself. Believe me I've seen enough of it. I'm sure the illegality is somewhat flexible, it has to be or the authorities would be looking to buy up all the uninhabited islands in the world to build more prisons, ala Botney Bay. The issue here is not about gun ownership or the right to keep and bear arms. Its about accountablity and responsibility. Gun control is vitally necessary but if you don't do it right, obviously, then events like this will continue to happen.
Take assault weapons as an example. What does a private person need an assault weapon for? Hunting? Yeah right, you going to go out there and open up on a deer or a bear or whatever and rip it to pieces with an automatic weapon? A single arrow can do that. The NRA fought tooth and nail to kill a law that would ban assault weapons. Why? They cite the second amendment always. They hide behind the constitution and abuse of said constitution never even enters into it. Gun control out of sheer necessity must be made far stricter than it is. Those who wish to own one should be required to pass a physical and mental evaluation and 'stiff' fines and or prison time should be handed down if even one of the conditions is violated. This simply does not exist! Because if it did, in a reasonable form, perhaps most of what does happen wouldn't. As for mental illness......try and seek treatment or find another way to diminish its effects and you run into an insurance company's favorite response. Its too expensive and we wont cover it. The insurance companies are like the NRA, a political self help group whose only interest is taking your money and giving little in return. All of these special interest groups do the same thing. Why do you think they're called special. There is one truism here.......guns don't kill people, people kill people. A gun can't pull its own trigger, if left alone it will just lie there not doing a damn thing. Someone has to pick it up and that someone pulls the trigger. Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns. To me that's a cop out. Gun control, reasonable, restrictive and with enough teeth in it to do the job is what's needed. It has been tried but......there's that special interest group again crying foul. Eliminate the damn NRA. In my opinion it has outlived its usefulness as have most of these so-called special interest groups. Admittedly there are some who actually do care about those they serve but it seems as though they are a minority. Maybe its because they don't have enough money or not enough politicos in their pocket or perhaps not the right ones. Who knows...to hell in a handbasket.
Well...there goes everyone I know! I guess you guys can all start packing your bags.
Biggest load of utter bullshit I have ever had the misfortune to hear.
Get a grip or go elsewhere.
You have insulted every Australian [and others] on the planet. And who, pray tell invented black slavery as a rite of existence?
It pisses me off when some arsehat imagines others as being a cause of THEIR ills, or a justification of it.
Australia decimated the original inhabitants of Tasmania...to a man, yes, that is true.
The US decimated 400 nations.
Fix your own world before you get all superior.
We [Australians] do not live with the false interpretations of some antequated 'bill of rights' that bears no relevance to current reality. We are simply socially aware and die to support the rights of free people in every theater of war since we existed as a nation.... and no, not the 17-18 war...or the 41-45 war.... we were there all the fucking way.
Do NOT ever disparage the integrity of the ANZAC.... not if you want to be regarded as a social equal.
As an Australian, I am insulted.
End of story.
Wiz, we basically agree... Except for the utter nonsense about Australia. That was simply way wrong. I advocated two axes: Gun control AND mental health reporting and funding. Three, actually... ending economic violence (perhaps the cruelest of all).
One won't work without the other. Together there will be success. Will there be madmen who escape the system? Yes. Will there be fewer will less available means of mass murder? Yes.
Wiz... let's think critically for just a moment. Airliners are not guns or land mines, nor are they oil and fertilizer.
You are mixing two distinct things.
Guns and land mines were designed with one purpose in mind: Killing.
Jet liners, oil and fertilizer were not designed as weapons. Yes, the problem is with people. Yes, people need to be treated and I've discussed that.
Guns and other implements designed specifically to kill need not to be in the hands of the general public. Sydney's comment about farmers and varmints I agree with.
Well then allow me to rephrase that to be a bit less insulting.
Coming from a former Penal Colony, I'm not surprised down-unders have trouble grasping American "rights" and "personal freedoms"
Yes, our Constitution is old, our Bill of Rights outdated. Perhaps it should all be thrown out but that isn't for Australia (or any country) to decide that for us. Let we Americans decide if we no longer want freedom of speech, the right to assembly and the right to bear arms. Take away those, and we become a nation of sheep. Most of the not-so-free world would love for that to happen.
Apologies if I have offended anyone, anywhere, but blaming gun deaths on the guns is like blaming traffic deaths on the automobiles.
Thank you for allowing me to speak,
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