FE is a fun game.
It's however not only my opinion that there's also a distinct "blandness" for lack of a better word in FE. Factions may play differently, but they still "feel" the same. Is it just the visuals or the game lore being in it's infancy? Perhaps to some extent, but it's also not just completely superficial. Let me try to illustrate.
A good example is the fact that the sovereigns and champions in FE practically feel more or less the same, because they actually do function more or less the same. They both can cast spells and they are both essentially blank slates starting out except for some race traits and can be customized into a certain path as they gain levels. But the end result is that they are practically interchangeable aside from certain bonuses or penalties. There are no true restrictions and consequently no champion or sovereign feels really special.
By contrast, MOM had heroes that felt unique and were particularly memorable. You had pure fighters that had no magic to necromancers that could cast tactical death spells and could life steal to dragon-riding heroes that could fly and breath fire and even invisible ninjas. There's a certain sense of awe when you get Warrax as a hero for example, but when I get a new champion in FE it's a non-affair because they are basically all the same.
This extends also to the customizable units which are fundamental to the game. Are customizable units a good thing? Of course, but when each faction's unit is a blank slate that can be customized to the extent that they each start to look and function like the other faction's, then perhaps it's excessive. As a contrast, every unit for every faction in MOM was unique in terms of both visuals and mix of abilities, and therefore each faction not only played different, it more importantly also felt different. Perhaps a good compromise between customizability and uniqueness is to start from several types of distinct faction units (like a Juggernaut or Iron golem unit) and then allow some customization of equipment and abilities from there.
Another illustration are the spells. Sure you can cast a damage-based spell and provide some stat bonuses here and there in FE, but MOM had close to 25 unique global enchantments with effects that range from causing all enemies slaughtered to rise up as zombies to making it more difficult for other factions to cast spells to spontaneously corrupting parts of the land every turn and another that even stops time so that only the caster's faction could move. And not merely adjust some numbers on a spreadsheet. Is it any surprise then that people regard FE's magic system as lacking "kick-ass" especially when you compare it to MOM?
Perhaps for the next expansion pack, Stardock could consider even more ways to inject uniqueness and flavor into the game as a whole.
Now THIS is a constructive, courteous and well-thought out criticism, which points out some of the same things other posters have been saying with full respect for the game and its developers - while I may not agree 100% with your assessment, I congratulate you on your way of stating it ...
Yeah, this is the type of constructive criticism and feedback that you golf clap at then falls down the forum and never gets read by anyone.
I agree with this thread 100%, but the sad truth is unless you piss people off and spew some nerd rage no one will listen. I watched for months, people full of polite constructive feedback were utterly ignored, ideas threads brimming with enthusiastic gamers and modders who were willing to do most of the work and just wanted some changes to improve the official game, pretty much all of them were ignored.
Well, it all comes by comparing FE with MoM. It is curious that, after all the time that has passed, it is still the gold standard, the reference to this subgenre of games (TBS/4x/RPG ??). Many will say that AoW (SM) surpassed it, but I dont agree.
MoM gave a good solution (or an acceptable one) to many parts of the game (different races and units, economy, growth, resources, building system, global and local magic, research system, tactical fights, unique heroes, ships, flying units...) that left 3 options to the rest: copy it (so you are just a copier --yes AoW here you are), ignore it (so your game lacks it) or trying to innovate.
FE has chosen the third option for many of the aspects, and that takes us here: we will love more or less, because we will compare it with what we liked in MoM. And as far as some of the innovations still need some polish, or maybe just doesn't work the way it was expected, you are missing the original aspects that MoM offered.
But FE is not MoM. Many people here say (and I agree with that) that instead of making criticism that MoM is better in this or that, just give opinions and ideas to improve FE...
I've been adding a couple to the Stormworld mod but I have to say they are damn hard to make unique without making them overpowered (and so the AI can use them) within the current system.
Does AI use Shadow World -spell? I never do, or so far I haven't, and have never seen it being used.
Firstly I have to say, the fact that hes making his point without kicking and screeming isnt the reason his thread will drop off the front page. If you could post on 'nerd rage' theads with out bumping I would be a keen advocate. The reason it will most likely drop off is because it mostly said "We have this game. And its good. Buuuuut it should really be more like that game.". The fact OP has stayed resonable is highly commendable in this day and age.
Anyway, while heroes are rather all similar they ARE more than pretty much just blank sheet to begin with. A platform for destruction? Road-building city buffer? I think this is what the devs wanted. The way the level should be the real way they gain their uniqueness, we experiance that heroes journey to power as much as our Sovereigns. Playing around with they traits heroes gain when leveling, maybe adding some unique ones to certain heroes. Enhancing the heroes you possess cound be done with "Hero Quests" where after a certain level/time/chance a quest appears about/around that hero. You could be getting his 1337 sword back. You could be restoring light magic to some one. Could be a bonus perk. But basically have the hero develop itself, to the player, throughout the course of the game, where choosing different quest decisions, or failing them, can change the outcome to the unit. Leading to having attachments to heroes for what you led them to be, rather than some spun up wall of text on their character sheet. Maybe Empire players wont want to babysit their play things...
Also some heroes come with the illusive skath mount... Skath mount!
Units need more abilities, through equipment and traits, or whatever method. Just to make them feel a little special from the usual shock trooper or auto generated city militia.
World Enchantments seem feasible to creep up in FE, or a single nation-wide enchantment slot type thing. But sounds scary to me, seems like that kind of power would take a lot of shards or even the spell of making to cast. Don't forget most magical secrets were lost (or something). We still have goodies like Volcano, a decent example since even a non-mage player can access it. Earth mages can do things like carve paths through mountains to explore territory or make short cuts.
i found a hero today who could summon a Slag. is that a spell that ever becomes normally available? anyway, this guy does it with no mana cost. There's one with fire breath too. Generally it seems like the level 9 heroes are more interesting.
There is one hero I see from time to time who summons a bear as his companion. Slag is deffinately more interesting... But to have the fearsome power of the bear on my side of the battle field... Too scary...
Don't agree with all, but well thought post.
I like FE for the game as it is, and I am not asking for an MoM remake. FE must remain FE. I like customizable units. I like the game lore. In fact, when I was talking about having unique heroes and units for the factions, I really wasn't scheming to introduce old cliches like orcs and elves and all that to FE .
But there's clearly some parts about FE that lacked that same quality that MoM had, and I was hoping that by giving MoM vs FE illustrations the reasons would be clearer, not necessarily because I want FE to have an exact copy.
For example, I still stand by what I said I mentioned that having customizable units as a core mechanic for FE is a good thing. It's just that having too much at the expense of uniqueness and flavor probably isn't. It sounds like the same design issue that Jon mentioned in his blog before - namely that more choice doesn't necessarily equate more fun. But here's a compromise so indulge me for moment: How awesome would it be to have unique and themed units per faction that fill the typical roles but also be able to equip and personalize them further as well?
By the way, there's a reason MoM is being cited so often as a comparison and it's because it just got so many things right. Two decades later and it's been held as the inspiration for similar 4X games including FE and it's still being played to this day.
We all hope for FE to have the same influence, if not now then maybe after the next big update.
So you mean like Juggernauts and Golems? You can only equip them with certain items, and they fill particular roles.
I think everyone looks back at MoM with rose tinted nostalgia glasses on. When the game came out it wasn't all that good at all. Even after the makers stopped patching it they had to make fan patches because it still needed a lot of improvement.
Yes. But also instead of generic units like Spearmen and Mages for all factions, have faction-specific unique units that fill those roles.
For example, Altar could have Foot soldiers and Spellswords instead. Yithril could have Berzerkers and War-mages. Tarth might have Rangers as equivalent frontline units adept in stealth, melee and range attacks but then lack a magic-type unit for the faction. But even after customization, War-mages should still be focused on raining pure elemental destruction on enemies while Spellswords should mostly be using their limited magics to enhance their own martial prowess and shield allies. Both magic-using, but ultimately feels very different. In other words, each unit type can be customizable within their roles but still remain fundamentally and thematically distinct from the other factions' equivalents.
I would also argue for the same treatment for the sovereign and champions in the game. Make them distinct while still allowing customization.
Will it be fun and memorable? I think yes. Feasible? Probably a lot of work to pull off for an update but I could see this happen in an expansion sometime in the future.
Yes but the fact that there were fans then until now, and that they even bothered to make fan patches in the first place should say something (and doing it without source code or documentation I might add).
100% agree with this!
I think at present we have too little unique units for each factions. If it is possible, I'd go further by recommending that most of the units should be unique to each faction. Ben Yeoh already stated nice example of unique mages. Instead of all mages are ice/fire shooting units, why don't we have different mages, such as Healer (able to cast Heal with 2 cooldown) for one faction, Necromancer (able to raise Skeleton) for another, Druid (able to entangle/summon animals) for yet another, etc?
I don't think customization is enough to give a faction powerful "flavor" because :
Bottom line : please make each factions more unique by introducing more unique units and unique buildings.
I really like your post and I wasn't trying to offend you or anything. You are one of the few people to come here and actually provide real critique and not just a blather wall of whiny text. I personally like the customization. I can build a faction that are a cult of death worshipers that don't wear armor and cast evil spells. (Well my sov at least) I agree that a default sov can have some set units with little customization but I don't to be forced to choose between archetypes with little customization. Right now I can build a henchman with a sword and fire magic and pump those out and have a guy that can shoot fireballs while playing with a sword. Or I can do that with a champion. It all comes down to taste. I can immerse myself with the units I create. I don't have to have the developers create units for me to add extra flavor. I think the game is powerful enough to do that yourself.
It's okay to have a different opinion from me, but just to make sure we are arguing about the same things, let me make my point clearer.
Like I mentioned before, I like customization. And like you mentioned, you can create whatever game unit you prefer and call it whatever you fancy and that's good. Maybe the game is indeed powerful enough to let you create whatever units that you fancy in your imagination whatever the faction. But that's actually part of the problem. When I play Tarth and build units or champions that you can build playing Altar or Pariden to a generous extent, then I find the homogeneity boring. I don't want interchangeability. I want each unit of each faction to be and feel distinct.
So, I'm actually arguing for two things:
1. Unique units (like Juggernaut and Iron Golem) per faction that replace the generic unit types that all factions get now like Spearman and Mage
2. Appropriate customization of units based on it's (1) unique unit type (2) faction type.
Again, I would argue the same things for each champion and sovereign as well. I want them each to be uniquely memorable. Two decades on I can still remember Warrax The Chaos Knight and Shin-Bo The Ninja in MoM, but I can't remember the name of a single hero in FE for all their biographical flavor text despite playing the game just last week.
I remember Janusk from E:wom, he was basically the Paperclip of Elemental. WOULD YOU LIKE SOME HELP WITH THAT?
MoM actually had very few champions/heroes, and I think that's part of what made them memorable. There wasn't 10 different assasssins running around, there was 1 healer and 1 sage and that was it (sure they had some random stuff but still). I think the pitfall that FE and E:wom stumbled into without realizing the consequences was that each champion needed a 3d model, and to save memory and time they just made them all look more or less the same, even if their abilities and backstories differ. I think there are around 100 champions in FE, and I can honestly say none of them look unique - some have monster mounts but that's it.
This is something that I hope we can do something about as modders. Instead of 10 or 20 champions running around like this, there's just going to be one or two. Quality >>> Quantity for champions. They can add 100 more champions to FE and it wouldn't make them more memorable, if anything it would make them less memorable.
On the contrary, they actually had 35 including Torin The Chosen One. I think that's a reasonably large number, considering you'd come across maybe typically 3-5 per game. But yes, it wasn't the quantity but quality that made them stood out indeed. Each was special, even the low-level ones, for a variety of reasons. The visuals/portraits helped for sure.
I'm spoiled, 35 is very low to me.
That pic you posted of that ophidian man thing - looks cool. Is it possible to replace standard units with unique units per faction and champions with a mod? How much flexibility do you have in terms of giving them special abilities or stats like being able to cast certain spells or restricting them to certain growth paths or limiting the equipment they may wear?
There's a lot of stuff you can do working with units in FE, depending on how deep you are willing to go. Right now there isn't really a good way to limit what equipment champions wear (other than weight). [the champions/sovereigns in my mod that don't have a "lower body" still wear boots/leggings because it was just easier to manage the balance that way - they just don't have a visible graphic]
As for unlocking extra paths in traits, blocking some, special abilities and so on, all that is possible. You can certainly replace the generic units with unique units (matter of work). In fact my long-term goal for Stormworld is to add unique units to each faction.
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