I understand that the guys at Stardock are programmers and not gamers, but what were they thinking? Why didn't they incorporate all the great ideas modders were working on and updating patch after patch? This game is written like it's made entirely from a coder's perspective, not at all from a gamer's perspective. All the factions are boring, the game is just bland.
I shouldn't have to decipher all their code or struggle trying to find all the right mods at all the right versions with all the right compatibility to play a decent game. I went out and bought elemental on Day 1, and it's still beta, and it's still BORING as hell.
Disciples II wasn't boring, Age of Wonders 2 wasn't boring, Might and Magic wasn't boring. Those games were immersive, that's not just nostalgia I played Age of Wonders Shadow Magic just the other day and it's still immersive in ways this game will never be. It's immersive because for all it's flaws, for it's practically nonexistent diplomacy, you actually feel like you're in control of a kingdom. You have choices that effect the type of kingdom you see on the map, there's more diversity, it's more immersive because everything has hidden layers of depth, everything has a description or a backstory, and you get to choose from almost any race any unit any school of magic you can even try to combine them all and use diplomacy to try to learn all the spells if you choose.
But in Elemental you have two choices, Empire of Kingdom, making a wizard is the best part but all the wizards are ultimately boring once you start playing, and the two dumbed down faction types are all pretty much identical not just in mechanics but in asthetics as well. One empire may as well be another, they look exactly the same and they play almost exactly the same they even have the same environment and there's nothing you can do to change it.
You can do little things that don't feel like they have any major impact, and even the meaningful decisions seem meaningless, because the game just lacks immersion. It's completely lacking in the way the user end aesthetic interact with the player, it's built entirely around mechanics and it has no soul.
I got my big ol' "LIKES FALLEN ENCHANTRESS" spreadsheet here. I am going to go ahead and pencil Valentine82 into the ol' "No" column.
Moving on?
Hey, sounds like Supreme Commander.
I agree the setting for this game is not accessible (and sorry Brad but you are not a writer). In fact FE rubbed me the wrong way to the extent that I uninstalled.
But after refreshing my memory about MoM and SM (which have sat unclicked on my desktop for years)... I was inspired to reinstall and take a second look and my opinion has completely reversed.
This game is amazing. What made MoM so much fun to play was never really being lord/lady darkness in the tower of doom with your legion of orcs/elves. And what MoM did (and SM never properly recaptured) this game does better.
It did help that I realized (somehow I'd missed this) that you can click on monsters on the world map to bring up a background/stat screen. Much better than trying to get over the intitial sense of alienation from the setting via the horrible hiergaeongoeingeiuh thing.
I understand the OP's point.
I also feel that there's a distinct "blandness" for lack of a better word in FE. Factions may play differently, but they still "feel" the same. Is it just the visuals or the game lore being in it's infancy? To some extent maybe, but it's also not just completely superficial. Let me try to illustrate.
A good example is the fact that the sovereigns and champions in FE practically feel more or less the same, because they actually do function more or less the same. They both can cast spells and they are both essentially blank slates starting out except for some simple race traits and can be customized into a certain path as they gain levels. But the end result is that they are practically interchangeable aside from certain race bonuses or penalties. There are no true restrictions and consequently no champion or sovereign feels really special.
By contrast, MOM had heroes that were each unique and different. You had pure fighters that had no magic to necromancers that could cast tactical death spells and could life steal to dragon-riding heroes that could fly and breath fire. There's a certain sense of awe when you get Warrax as a hero for example, but when I get a new champion in FE it's a non-affair because they are basically all the same.
Another illustration are the spells. Sure you can cast a damage-based spell and provide some stat bonuses here and there in FE, but MOM had close to 25 unique global enchantments with effects that range from causing all enemies slaughtered to rise up as zombies and another that even stops time so that only the caster's faction could move, and not merely adjust some numbers on a spreadsheet. Is it any surprise then that people regard FE's magic system as also lacking in "uniqueness" and flavor especially when you compare it to MOM?
Hopefully you can understand our point better now.
It's to bad that the games differences was not reflected visually there is a lot of diversity among the races stat wise, but they do mostly look the same.
Let us create our own races with a wide variety of cosmetic: Horns, Antennas, A third eye.... hell no eyes, hoofed feet multi limbs, wings ooooh I like the wing thing....... now there's your DLC Pack !!
Eye Candy goes a long way
Unfortunately I never played MOM and so I really don't understand the analogy to it's fullness. I know that there are a lot of people here who have played MOM and were disappointed that this game wasn't a MOM remake.
You have given a better interpretation of what you feel is missing from this game and from this point of view, I can see suggestions already included within your arguments that you would like to see FE move. Thank you for your reply because if this is the case, then I can now agree that there can be more global enchantments or at least some more global spells throughout.
Your comment about the variety and types of champions, I think you are right about the fact that there is small differences between champions on the map. Oddly enough each of the things that you mention I think can be modded into the game or the developers can add it to the game in the future.
You can definitely add more champions, but you can also add traits that force particular champions to NOT be able to cast magic. You can edit the current champions to create different types of level-up possibilities.
It's hard to come up with a coherent idea of what needs to change without some good critical feedback. Thank you for that because now I understand more of what the OP is suggesting (at least from your perspective). Thus, it doesn't seem like a huge gamebreaker that he was implying.
Everything else aside, you probably should consider separating your opinions about the game, from facts about the game, and both from facts about the developers--whom you don't know. I interviewed Brad a couple of times, for articles--and during the first one, he told me about how he missed his firstborn's birth because he was too preoccupied playing a game in the waiting room.
I still think that is insane. But at the same time, I would argue it shows just how far away from reality your comment above is.
And from what I've been given to understand the rest of his team enjoys playing games as much as he does. I only hope that doesn't include all the women on it, or they would miss the birth of their own children as well, causing all manner of paradoxes.
You owe it to yourself to give it a go and then you'll understand why it's held as the inspiration behind FE and Warlock and Age Of Wonders and why just about every pesky person on this forum is raving about it so much . It's also freeware.
This game is great and Valentine82's criticisms show he doesn't even own the game.
Only two factions? I'm gobsmacked at this statement. How many factions are there in the classic 4x Master of Orion 2? By your thinking one.
And also "I'm a hardcore gamer, I've played strategy games from Knights of Honor and Europa Universalis to HoMM and Age of Wonders..." This game has more synergistic strategy options than any games of the Age of Wonders and HoMM franchises period. There is simply no way you could argue otherwise. No way.
Fallen Enchantress may not have Elves or Dwarves making immediate immersion in the lore harder but it has stuck with one generic fantasy type: Trolls
I don't think the arcane monoliths are such a difference. A really flavorful Pariden would be all about magic and have a lot more restricted access to armor/weapon. Altar should have very few troops, and the henchmen mechanics should be more developed. Ythril has juggernauts, and that's it, really. The 'barbarian" feel of the faction is really underdevelopped.
Of course, faction differentiation is usually poorly implemented in other games too. But sometimes, it works, such as in Fall from Heaven II.
The game is massively moddable.Modding suffers from the same disease as Fallen Enchantress: Frankensteinism. Rich, huge, but awkward, sometimes inconsistent design full of oddly behaving parts. As a result, its moddability suffers quite a bit.
For instance, I can't make an initiative debuff that ends after a few turns because once the debuff goes away, the victim gets a free turn due to how initiative recalculation is handled. So on paper, you can do lots of things with Elemental's XMLs, in practice it often doesn't work so well. Not to mention that modding breaks the AI.
No that's only part of it, you've been ignoring most of what I've typed apparently, but seriously some altering visuals would be easy as hell for Stardock to do if they actually cared about getting past the two dozen diehard fans on the forums who will never admit Stardock blew it with this game. The game doesn't live up to it's potential, every category could be better you can't deny that, and I don't mean that in an esoteric sense it could be better in the Standard 4x sense. I've given examples from other games, this isn't just me, this isn't just my opinion or what I want, this game failed and it continues to fail, everything I've expressed here has echoed across the reception outside this insulated bubble this game is a failure and it frustrates me because this game could so easily be so much more than it is.
Fairly I haven't ignored what you have said. I've read what you said several times, I was having difficulties on deciphering what you were meaning because like I said before I've never played those games (except for warlock which I didn't care for long enough to give it a fair go). It's not as clear as you might think because you are leaving out so much detail. I agree that there is so much more potential that this game has and will continue to grow with that potential.
I do enjoy elemental and think it is a rather fun game to play. I really enjoy most aspects about the game and don't feel the same lacking features that other see in the game. Although, I can agree that there is more that can be done in these areas, it is not something that I ever expected from this game.
A lot of what you are asking for can actually be modded into the game and I look forward to a robust modding community to provide that gameplay for you to come back and enjoy the game. I hope that the developers decide to implement many of the things that you want from this game so as to not be disappointed to the promise that was made in the game. Then again I've played GalCiv I and wasn't that impressed, and then I played GalCiv II and was really impressed. So I think given the appropriate amount of time this game will become what you want. But I suppose at this moment it isn't what you were hoping for them to provide at the moment. If I knew how to model buildings into the game, I would definitely make each faction have their own unique style of building, which I think would go a long way for you at the very least.
I know there are plenty of people who added some fun spells to the game already and there will be plenty more to come.
Thank you for your insight onto why the game is what it is for you. It educated me a lot on why people were not happy with what they were getting.
I understand that deprives you of context which makes this game seem better since you don't really have much to compare it to, and makes it harder for you to understand what I mean when I say it's not just the asthetics.
This whole game is a shallow experience, I know these are emotive words and you're wanting mechanics language but that's just the thing, the same mechanics can be expressed in completely different ways and there are only so many ways to describe the mechanics. Describing just the mechanics can make a horrible game sound interesting and can obscure what really sets a good game apart.
Shadow Magic had superficially similar mechanics but there was more depth to everything. Again Depth is an emotive word, Stardock does not comprehend depth, they think like programmers and Froggy even said as much in a forum post back in the WoM days. All I can say is go play Shadow Magic. Play it and compare, there's no way for me to just tell you the difference you have to see it and experience it for yourself to truly understand. It's like trying to explain the difference between Majesty 1 and Majesty 2, you have to play it to get it, and get why the reception to Majesty 2 was so bad by pretty much everyone who played Majesty 1.
Just know that Stardock promised something very different from what they delivered and dropped a few name bombs referencing much better games.
It is NOT freeware. I think you are confusing it with 'abandonware' (which isn't a legal term anyhow), but even that isn't true, because MoM is being officially sold again (and has been for a couple years now). Except for this part, though, I entirely agree with your statement.
Having played MoM from the day it was released (yes I'm that old), every version of Age of Wonders and HOMM, and Disciples, I can see some of the OP points but I think he discounts some of the improvements of FE.
What I agree with:
-In MoM, AOW, and to an extent in HOMM the faction leaders were drastically different which had a major impact on play style to include exclusive units and limitations that go farther then what we have in FE.
-Battles do feel a little "samey" after a while, with a limit mix of tactics, although spells do add more depth
-Very humanlike centric, without fantasy races. Why can't we have a faction of trolls or Darklings?
-Not really multiple ways to win unless you want to play forever. It almost always comes down to conquest. That may be my failing, but I've yet to have a different victory type or had the patience to play long enough for the other victory conditions. For example, Civilization has a couple of very viable victory conditions (military, cultural, diplomatic, space race); I've won multiple times with each type.
What I disagree with/see as positives of FE:
-Quests, recruitable champions thatdue look and feel different. I recruited the hero that could summon the bear every battle and he was awesome.
-The spawning monsters and the lack of a static map. If you don't actively kill the spawn locations, you get waves of creatures moving in and destroying your sites and threatening pioneers and poorly defended cities.
-The randomness and the potential of finding that pot fo gold that could change the game. For example getting a high end sword or access to a game changing spell after combat. I never know, especially in the early game, if I'll get an item or a quest unit (Brothers, archers) that will allow me to actually clear out my areas. Every random map I've played has had a new twist; unexpected chokepoints, lack of crystal in my area, a virtual wall of giant slags or dragons blocking my path, etc.
-I actually like the visuals and sound effects.
What I'd change:
-Add in different races or allow factions access to more unique units, not just equipment types. I'd love to have an Ogre or Troll army.
-Change the experience track for each faction to make it more difficult for the supposedly love magic factions to get magical skills. My last game as Tarth, my leader was all magic all the time, with maxed out magical skills.
-More random events, both major and minor and continued push to make more interesting recruitable NPCs.
These are 2 good points. One of the things that MoM did really well was offer the possibility of unique games and stories, and I think you nailed a couple of the features that enabled this. Some MoM games became focused on 1 -3 champions who dominated battles with a good set of support troops. Other games centered around Elven Lords or Paladins. Or you might have multiple groups of Slingers or Berzerkers, which didn't dominate like Paladins, but could be heavy hitters if cranked out in numbers.
I don't remember Zombie Mastery ever turning a game around, but those types of spells definitely added flavor. The combination of spells and unit types added an RPG- or story-like feeling, so it really felt like you could choose to be a Necromancer, nature, or chaos mage, etc.
One other interesting point about MoM heroes: the Warrax comment arguably refers to a lack of balance. There were some heroes like Warrax or Fang who had good potential to turn into heavy hitters. There were others like Zaldran (sp?) who could occasionally go big-time. But there were many others who would never be great heroes. This actually created more variety in play, though, because sometimes you relied more on heroes, sometimes you relied more on troops.
Also, regarding balance, certain races like Klackons or Lizardmen were weak late-game, so if you started out as those races, you needed to conquer a few cities from other races to get the military going. Dark Elves also had to go that route because they bred so slow. This drove a sort of multi-cultural requirement for many games, where you'd conquer halflings for slingers/food, high men for paladins, nomads for gold, etc. If the MoM developers had worked more on balance (which is something I usually argue for), gameplay would have been very different.
Anyway, I'm satisfied with FE so far. I think it could use more flavor, and I'm hoping to see an expansion of diplomacy and some other areas of the game, but it seems pretty solid to me so far.
I wish someone would just buy and digitally remaster the game.
Keep it almost exactly like it is, maybe add a few features players wanted back in the day, maybe add bigger maps in and more diplomacy, but mostly just preserve what's there with modern graphics.
That would be a game I'd pay a AAA price for three times over, I'd give a copy to my nephew.
When fighting resoln, I get different theme music and of course the terrain is colored differently from when I am fighting most other factions. So, clearly, this illustrates a focus on game mechanics to the exclusion of all else?
And that's nothing compared to the differences in how the game feels when I play resoln. (However given a bug I found when doing so, I feel like people have been mostly ignoring them.)
I was a bit hesitate to read on this thread again not to fame up all known issues of FE to u all again,
But omphaloskepsis / Ben Yeoh,
you really remind me about the font memory of MOM with the 25 global spells and unique heroes..., let me see if I can revisit, thanks!
I see your point there, Valentine82, but you are comparing FE to wrong (basically very different) games. This game should be compared rather to Sid Meyer's Civilization or Warlock: Master of Magic rather than HoMaM or Disciples series.
I love this game. And it would seem there are many who share my view. So, the OP’s dissertation that this game is terrible is flawed. He is welcome to dislike it or hate it for any reason, but that doesn’t necessarily mean there is anything bad about the game. So, I don’t understand all of the time he put in defending his position of how awful he thinks the game is.
I love this game; you hate it. I get it. Why are you still here?
I try hard not to buy games I don’t like, yet I’d say half of them turn out to be failed purchases. Few games turn out to be games I love. However, it is discovering those truly wonderful games that make all of the purchases worth it. I’m not going to waste my time blasting the ones that failed the test.
PS. I am in no way putting down anyone who offers constructive criticism. However, I will say I hope there is never a spell added to FE that turns my units into zombies as mentioned in Reply 55! That poster says “flavor”; I say “game-breaking.”
I don't really see what the rage is about. Especially what he says about modders? As far as I know, FE is moddable to an extent few other games can match. I actually agree that the factions in FE are a bit bland. So I installed Heavenfalla Stormworld mod. Problem solved. With that mod I absolutely love this game. LOVE. As in I'll probably play it for years and I'll tell everyone to buy it and I can't wait for the expansions to give me more.
So thank you Stardock. And thank you Heavenfall. And sorry Valentine that you feel the way you do, but maybe you should try some of the mods before you say the modders have been ignored?
I did not want to write in these useless threads, but it seems there is no way.
Valentine82
What you've got is MasterOfMagitis in an advanced and severe stage, that causes you phobia to changes, paranoia, nostalgia and anxiety, and probably more things, and you think that sharing your shit may alleviate your symptoms. But that is not the sollution.
You want a sollution? Start modding what you want to change. I never modded before, but thanks to the nice people here, I managed to make my first mod, a roadbuilder unit. That is only the begining. With time and help, I will try more things. Step by step.
But not, you don't want to give a sollution. Just want to spread your crap to see if there are any others like you, so you can console yourself thinking you are not alone, and dreaming with the sex of the angels, and how beatifull would be the world if the people listened to your ideas.
Why don't YOU buy the game license? Why don't YOU make a web to gather the money for that remaster (crowdfunding is how it is called?)?, like many small studios or fans? Why don't YOU DO SOMETHING, instead of just complaining and crying?
Your critique of this game is not going to work on these forums because most of the users are people that have been around for a couple of years and invested a significant amount of time into this game.
I don't think there is any point in arguing because you will get stomped tot he ground rather than any meaningful discussion as to what can be made better.
LOL at-least dont fall into your own trap.
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