Many players have complained that the monsters treat AI differently than they treat the player. Brad says that on challenging, the monsters treat the AI exactly the same way they treat the player.
Many players claim that the AI dogpile on the player without rhyme or reason. Brad says that this only happens on higher difficulties.
Brad may be right. I would not know, I seldom play Expert, and never below that.
This is why I am going to play ironman on challenging with what is considered the worst sovereign, Queen Procipinee. When the game is over (or has become too boring) and I will go back to my saves, and take a look at what the AI is doing (someone will have to tell me how, but I know it can be done)
By the way, do you have to do something before you start the game to be able to look at the AI moves from saves? If so, I would really appreciate it if you tell me before I start. (Which will be about 30 minutes from the timestamp of this post)
The experiment has been concluded, and the results can be found here.
Well maybe we could have something where some summons improve with character..
So if you have a summoner with +2 tp poison on melee due to an item. Maybe that carries on to the summoned creature? or maybe half the enhancement?
Well,
I've seen AI cheating on normal in same production rushing ways which you have prooved few posts above: on 60th season it had 4 cities with 3 of them having 4 tiles influence areas, and from just graphical view dozens of buildings in it. I had passed through empty teritory just on 30th season and on 60 it was fully built up with cities and outposts, all shards and mines also build up. Well it was a bit annoying. I dont mind, i know i will handle it anyway just with my solo souvereign, but i still dont like it to cheat so openly , i mean whats the point to creat game and its rules if they fit only for me and AI is free to do what it wants. Then why to pretend at all if its exploring, and expanding, better just give him half of map built up from the start and thats it (sarcasm). There is no joy of racing if your oponents can blink to finish whenever they like.
I'm wondering if for some reason the gold used by the AI to rush things isn't being subtracted from his total gold? That would explain the constant rushing.
That would be quite the bug if it was true. Could anyone confirm?
Confirm what? This thread states it out clearly, and I have the save games to prove it. The AI rushes for free on challenging.
Brad has confirmed that it is a bug, due to rounding.
I guess the thread has become so long, and has been hijacked so many times, it's hard to keep tracks.
Turn 83-91
Turn 83: Raven's heart: well->mill. Blackstead: sage->cloister. Hagudst: sage->mill. Procipinee finds a compass, and ends the turn next to yet another group of skaths. A mistake, because her troops are badly beat up, and I should have not moved multiple tiles at once when I knew I'll end on a river.Turn 84: The skaths attack, but everyone makes it out alive. My cavalry was at 3hp after the first round of the enemy. Amarian hit points are very low, even for veterans.
Verga was also in range of the skaths, and he was way weaker than Procipinee's army. When I finish the game, I will reload this and roll it 10 times to see how many times he gets attacked.New Pariden: festival->school. Tenfell: monument->crystal quarry. New Serrane: workshop->scrying pool. I cast pretty much every unit spell on Alisa (I should have done that long ago) and Tutelage on the cavalry. Procipinee attacks some fire shrills and gets "Trainer I". Turn 85: Karavox offers me 42 coins for an economic treaty. I accept. Now I know where his capital is. Of course, first I should take care of Yithril, who is recruiting like crazy, but does not have the tech to make more than 30/11 troops. Procipinee destroys an ophidian army. She gets "Air Master", Alisa gets "Earth Mage". She spots Yithril's dominion to the North. If that's his capital, I'll attack him as soon as the army has healed.Turn 86: Procipinee destroys two crag spawn armies, and loots a scroll of Fortune, which she saves for Leadanna. I do not want merchant skills showing up in my main heroes picks. Procipinee presses on, and discovers Yithril's capital, a conclave protected by two oppressors. Yithril's days are numbered. I use "Raise land" to get rid of some swamps around Blackstead. This gives me an idea, and I get rid of some swamps between a river and a forest in the West. One of the tile turns into a fertile 3/3/2. I rush the crystal quarry in Tenfell, and insert a pioneer in front of the queue.Turn 87: I speak to Karavox and get hired to attack Verga for 140 Gildar. I use some of the money to rush the pioneer in Tenfell, and send it to the 3/3/2 tile in the West. Procipinee attacks Ahilga. There's three oppressors, instead of two, but it's still an easy fight. Procipinee hastes almost everyone, Alisa tanks, everyone else picks targets off the the enemy's flanks, and soon the capital is ours. I cast "Enchanted hammers" and "Inspiration", and start a town hall. Procipinee's army heads to the next city, Timbraikat. Turn 88: Raven's Heart: mill -> great mill. Blackstead: cloister->herbalist. New Serrane: scying pool->mason. I remove the "Inspiration" on New Serane, and cast "Set in Stone" and "Sovereign's Call". Leadanna buys a horse, and hurries toward Ahilga. Timbraikat is guarded by two oppressors and two spear maiden. Procipinee is forced to use a wellspring scroll in battle, but we still win. I cast "Enchanted hammers" and "Inspiration", and start a town hall. Kitty leave Procipinee's army, and heads toward a Yithril border visible near Ahilga. I expect to find an outpost that Kitty can flip. The rest of the army continues toward the last Yithril city - the swampbound Alhain-Al-Assan.Turn 89: New Pariden grows to level 3, and builds a Guild Grocer. Tenfell: monument->bell tower. Kitty finds and flips an Yithril outpost. She also finds nice patch of fertile land and a ravenous harridan's army bound for Ahilga. I have 'Tremor' and enough mana not to worry about it. Warlord Verga is in the swamps near Alhain-Al-Assan. Procipinee rides around him, and ends the turn under the walls of the city. Turn 90: "Economics" -> "Guilds". The harridan loses no time to head toward the outpost I just took over. Or maybe it is going after Kitty. Procipinee conquers Alhain-Al-Assan. I think of razing it, and decide against it. Sure, it's surrounded by swamps, but "Raise Land" will take care of that. There's also the occupation penalty, which will take about 55 turns to go away, but then, a city I start now would take 50 turns to reach Alhain-Al-Assan's population. So I cast "Enchanted hammers" and "Inspiration", get rid of the swamps, rush a monument, and start a bell tower. Kitty goes around the spider's army and follows the road until she spots the Kraxis border. Leadanna rides toward Ahilga, and kills a few Yithril pioneers on her way. Unfortunately she ends the turn rather close to Verga. Well, she'll have to take her chances.Turn 91: Blackstead: herbalist->mill. Procipinee flips the last known Yithril outpost. Time to end the war, after all, we've been at war for a whole year, by now. I demand Verga's surrender, and receive it. Leadanna gives him most of her equipment, and enters Ahilga, reducing its unrest down to 10%. I sell Verga's loot, and use the money to rush the mill in Hagudst, and start a study. Meanwhile, the spider army and the wolf army have both headed towards the former Yithril buildings in the West. Kitty kills the wolves, and the spiders are Tremor'd. Procipinee heads that way.
Well, the war's over, time for a break. I think I'll post a picture of the map.
This is just awesome. The whole community benefits a ton from this, thanks for your work.
OK thats cool... I hadn't even considered using raise land for that purpose... could that have been what the AI did to you earlier????
No. I killed or captured all his heroes, and none of them had Earth III. Furthermore, the AI did not use "Raise Land" to clear room for its city, and built nothing but the pier/dock. I cleared the swamps after I took over.
This is really cool.
Are you going to do like a summation report at the end of the game. (Something of a tl;dr so we don't have to go through the entire thread. haha)
Yes, I will. I have all the saves, I plan on taking a full map shot (like the last picture) at important moments, and to have a list in which the AI got unfair advantages.
I am not trying to rush anything, I just want to know if I am misunderstanding the above. Did you fix anything that was pointed out in this thread? If so what was changed so we can test? The post itself suggests performance type improvements.
Turns 92-99
Turn 92: New Pariden: school->granary. Tenfell: bell tower->grocer. New Serrane: mason->mill. Verga follows the pioneer meant to settle the patch which Gilden keeps trying to colonize. Kitty rejoins Procipinee, who is riding to intercept the harridan, which I Tremor again. Some Kraxis pioneers are approaching a fertile patch West of Ahilga. I erect an arcane monolith near them, to prevent them from settling in the next few turns, and rush a pioneer of my own in Ahilga.Turn 93: The pioneers settle Clover on a 2/4/2 tile West of Ahilga. I cast "Enchanted hammers" and "Inspiration", rush a logging camp and start developing a nearby clay quarry.. Procipinee doesn't quite reach the harridan, so I have to Tremor it again. Verga ends the turn next to a darkling lair and two darkling armies.Turn 94: I settle Stonecastle on a 3/3/2 tile near the area where Gilden pioneers keep entering my territory. I cast "Enchanted hammers" and "Inspiration", and start a logging camp. Alisa goes exploring toward Kraxis on her own, and finds a pair of leather vambraces. Leadanna joins Procipinee's army for the fight with the Harridan. Procipinee gets a venom sack, and "Affinity". Leadanna gets "Administrator I". Verga kills a bunch of darklings, loots a fireball scroll, kills another bunch of darklings, then goes off chasing some more darklings.Turn 95: Contact with Tarth. Gilden builds the Treasury Vault. Hagudst: study->school. Leadanna goes back to governing Ahilga. Verga kills some darklings and gets "Potential I". Procipinee loots a quest map, follows it, and after answering a riddle, receives the druss blade, which she is unlikely to ever be able to wield. Alisa kills two groups of darklings, loots a belt of precognition, and sells her loot. With the money, I rush the grocer in Tenfell, and start upgrading a monlith to help bring Stonecastle into my dominion. I also rush the logging camp in Stonecastle, and start a pier.
Alisa spots an army of skaths and a river slag walking around under Kraxis dominion. After the game, I will check to see whether they have behaved as aggressively as the umberdroth and the others who hounded me.Turn 96: Karavox extradites Alisa. Ahilga: town hall->scrying pool. Clover: clay quarry->scrying pool. An army of darklings wanders in from the North and destroys one of my crystal quarries. Procipinee kills some bears and loots a pair of leather boots. Alisa decides to take a better look at a Tarth city, and encounters some Altar scouts nearby. I sign a technology exhange treaty with them, and while doing so learn that their research is only slightly lower than mine. I'm impressed.Turn 97. Raven's Heart finally finishes the Great Mill. New Serrane becomes a fortress. Blackstead: mill->apothecary. Verga finds a lost library. Alisa kills a troll and some darklings. Procipinee destroys a great wolf's army, and finds a weathered shield.Turn 98: "Guilds"->"Literacy". Altar extradites Alisa. Procipinee kills a lot of wolves, gets "Apprentice swordsman", and yet another weathered shield. Verga destroys two air shrill armies, and loots a rune tablet, that can be best used by Alisa. Alisa finds a 15 experience book that she saves for Procipinee, and a tear of Cyndrum that she starts using. I rush the bell tower in Alhain-Al-Assan and start a cleric.Turn 99: Alisa gets evicted again. Procipinee gets attacked by an army of air shrills. New Pariden: granary->iron mine. Tenfell: high tower->mill. New Serrane: mill->forge. Timbraikat: town hall->scrying pool. Stonecastle: pier->workshop. Clover: scrying pool->workshop. I cast "Oppression" on Clover. Procipinee kills two more air shrill armies, gets "Trainer II", and loots an ice warg cloak. Alisa kills a bear and its cub, gets "Potential III" and loots an adept robe that should go to Procipinee.
I notice that Gilden's flow of pioneers, which for at least twenty turns had required my attention has ceased. Right as I settled Stonecastle, no less. If I had any doubts that the AI sees the whole map, I just lost them.
Also, this log is becoming a pain to keep. I may just declare data gathering complete, go back to saves and start looking at the AIs. I'll see how I feel tomorrow.
Tuidjy,
I know my words aren't much of a boon, but I believe your work is very helpful. Thank you for your hard work, and a speedy recovery!
This is all very interesting - I thought challenging was supposed to be a level playing field but this clearly isn't the case. Great stuff here Tuidjy
I wonder if anyone knows exactly what bonuses/handicaps the AI gets on different settings. In the Civ games it's possible to look up exactly what these stats are - are there any details on this for FE?
I agree with this thought.... The Tutorial is ok (Videos are great). As far as it goes.... This game is in need of a well written Strategy Guide, or, something that explains what a decent build queue for a newbie (like myself) would be. Not a Newbie to Strategy but it has been awhile since I've ran into one with so many options in how you can start and and play (and that's a good thing)
But I some times feel lost in this game as to what is more important to build and research first and what others can wait.... Will I quit not likely.... but I do wish there was alittle more help offered for the newer or casual players. Sometimes I think more experineced players just assume that everybody knows the basics... (basics, I might add that are not covered in any detail either in the manual or the ingame help system).
Really nice after action review write up Tuidjy. From the dozens of games I have played it looks like you had an above average game. The map was really nice to you for city placement spots. The AI were actually spread out fairly decent. None of your AI died off on like turn six. All the AI were connected vis land, no overseas AI players.
I learned a few builds back during beta that the higher difficulty settings got a lot harder than the previous EWOM. I actually hard to go down towards normal because of the huge difference. We were warned this would happen.
I do not care what game you play, when you pick a harder AI or difficulty the AIs "cheats" by getting bonuses the players do not. This has always been the way it was done.
The big thing that reflects the difficulty most is the power ratings, if you make contact with the AI. You really need to manage your power rating and keep it close to theirs or you will be at war with multiple AIs very quickly, whether they are your faction or not. The AI gets to inflate their power rating with pioneer units, which is lame. They are a useless non-combat unit and should not have a power value. The AI spams pioners (which we all hate) and it inflates his rating over yours and bam you are at war.
Something that would be nice would be some sort of feature that required a "leader unit" for a army to perform attacks. Sure the army can roam around without a leader but only participate in defense battles. Simply because having six waves of units "leaderless units" attack bypasses the whole idea of having an army size of 5-9 units. This is how the AI cheats and makes the higher difficulty hard to play or so repetative it becomes boring. Of course the AI would still kinda cheat at this because they hire or kill every champion they come across. However if you at least drove off his champions it would give you a break until they recovered from their defeat.
Even with really nice equipped and leveled units you will eventually drown by wave after wave of AI "leaderless" armies. You manage to survive one turn having your city assaulted three or five times but your units are so badly hurt it does not survive the next three or five waves the following turn. If you are surviving the waves the game becomes very boring and repetative simply because you HAVE to fight it tactically to win, using auto results ends up losing units or battles you could have avoided playing tactically.
Technology is the other big thing the AI seems to cheat with. I had one game I rushed my technology to have five man squads. The AI shows up with a seven man squads. I actually saw the AI reinforce his squads one game. The army had three man squads and then the following turn those turned into five man squads. Seemed really fishy at the time the AI was able to upgrade about a dozen units in a single turn. Especially when I have had multiple times where it did not allow me to upgrade my units the same way.
As for the difficulty, it should be harder on higher levels period. If I want to play a harder level for a CHALLENGE then I want the possibility of getting my ass kicked VERY possible. If on a higher difficulty I still have almsot 100% chance to win then I may as well play easy mode instead.
I think someone said it best in this thread, its a matter of pride for the having to pick an easier difficulty. If pride is that much of an issue then change the name of the difficulty levels. The highest being like impossible, overwhelming, or suicidal. That way when people choose that difficulty they can not come back complaining it was too hard.
I would rather see a difficulty that is really hard to play then being able to consistantly beat the game on the hardest difficulty. Simple because when you can constantly beat the game on the hardest difficulty the game becomes a dust collector. Or in the case of the digital download age, a waste of hard drive space.
Sorry if this can hijack your post, Tuidjy. After renouncing to play in Challenging for a time, I am playing a game in Normal/Normal, and I find it too easy. Still need more game to do, but I am thinking more and more that there is a big step between Normal and Challenging.
I have to say this: NORMAL AI heroes get TWO STRENGH TRAITS too, the same as you stated in Challenging! Sorry I did not capture image, but anyone can check it for sure. This seems to be clearly a bug, as it is not related to the difficulty...
Again, thanks to your work, Devs can realize of the work needed in the AI to make difficulty settings really fit. I know it is very difficult, as each game is so different (starting traits/blood can be decisive, and the type of map allowing quick cities or not). But I agree that the idea is to help the people to chose the correct difficulty to provide fun to play again and again.
IMO, the new people should play at easy with confort, and normal for more experienced people. What I can't understand is that I can only have a chance in Challenging with the Krax faction (thanks to the fortified skill)...
Well, I guess many of us are awaiting for your conclusions, I hope they will provide some more light to the AI difficulty question.
This is besides the point of the topic, but thanks for clarifying, you should make a post about it!
I am still considering making a helping guide for new players, but it would be easier if I had a big list of "new player questions" (I should have kept track of all the questions, I know)..
Thanks again mr T for this post (thats you Tuidjy) for you
Sincerely~ Kongdej
Hi Kondej,
I told that because, as since 1.0, I have lost all my games in Challenging (except the one I played with Kraxis blood), so I turned to Normal/Normal. What I meant, was to say that the difficulty gap between Normal and Challenging might be very big...So in normal I get not enough fun, but in challenging I am dopgiled and overwhelmed...
The idea of the Thread is saying that Challenging AI is too hard now, I agree with that. So I find myself that: or play challenging with Krax blood again, or play in normal with other factions, but I don't expect too much challenge as I have seen untill now...
If that happens to me, maybe other players are in the same situation, finding Normal easy, but challenging too hard...I find my post can fit into this thread...
I have been playing Challenging (World+AI) with the latest versions. On my 1.00 game, which I am prolonging to get the 10,000 population achievement, I have a custom kingdom with The Decalon, Enchanters and Master Scouts and the Weakness to Magic, Temperate map, high heroes, high quests, high resources and magic and high random events. My Sov is an adventurer with no magic traits, I just Steal Spirit (but you are reliant early on on the magic classes you get from heroes). He has Discipline, Brilliant, Hardy (no poison effects, but still gets affected by Acid, not sure if that's intentional), Wealthy, Procipinee's Crown and the Staff of Souls, plus the Weakness to Magic. My kingdom is Altar-based so my units and Sov level-up quickly, and I get Champions without having to use a trait point (all Altar-based Custom Sovs get it, like Magnar gets slaves and Trogs get Juggernauts).
Also, in this game I was lucky to get a square bordered by three river tiles, a shard and horses, making it 4/4/2.
Your point is invalid since if you look at the description of challenging you will see it says the AI doesn't cheat.
I'm finding this to be the case as well. It's very map dependent for me. If I get a good spot and can expand quickly, I can build up momentum and win. But if there's a dragon or strong monsters anywhere near me, that really slows me down and I fall behind.
Turns 100-105
Turn 100: Raven's Heart: town hall->labor guild. Procipinee kills an assassin demon, and gets a scroll of oratory. Verga kills a timber warg, and loots a bit of gold. It must be less than 10 Gildar. Alisa kills an army of air shrills. She discovers an Altar city positioned between an air elemental army and a earth elemental army. The city has been there for at least 10 turns (judging from growth and population) and the elementals have not gobbled it up yet. I will check later to see how long it takes them.Turn 101: Kraxis pays me for a trade treaty. Tarth warns me of the growing power of Altar. New Pariden: iron mine->mill. Blackstead: apothecary->garden. New Serrane: forge-<training yard. Clover: workshop->mason. Verga finds a round shield. Procipinee kills a bone ogre by slowing it down to almost nothing. The Air elemental near the Altar city starts chasing Alisa. The Earth elemental also starts moving.
Strange that they choose that very moment to get active, given that have been sitting there for at least 10 turns. Alisa destroys the Air elemental army, another air shrill army, and a darkling warrior army. The Tear of Cyndrum really helps in keeping her fighting.Turn 102:"Literacy"->"Alliances". I sign trade and technology treaties with everyone, and non-aggression pacts with everyone but Kraxis and Altar. Kraxis because they're next, and Altar, because he wants to get paid. The Earth elemental walks by the Altar city and start chasing Alisa. She rides around him and loots a ring of life from the air elemental's lair.Turn 103: Blackstead: garden->docks. Hagudst: school->cloister. New Serrane: training yard->barracks. Stonecastle: workshop->mason. Ahilga: scrying pool->mason. I cast "Oppression" on Ahilga. An army of skaths has entered my lands from Kraxis, and Procipinee moves to intercept. Leadanna leaves Ahilga in order to govern Timbraikat, but has to kill some darklings on her way, so does not make it to te city. Alisa finds an enchanted backpack and a balanced axe, kills some darklings, and gets "Lethal II". Both Procipinee and Alisa sell their loot, which brings more than 200 Gildars.Turn 104: Altar builds the Hosten library and extradites Alisa. Clover:mason->lumber yard. Timbraikat: scrying pool->mason. I cast "Oppression" on Timbraikat. Leadanna spots an outpost that must be left from Yithril. She flips it, and notices a nice patch of fertile land and some Altar pioneers. She erects an arcane monolith, and asks the pioneers to get lost. I rush some pioneers in Timbraikat. They settle the city of Harkleigh in the spot found by Leadanna. I cast "Enchanted hammers" on Harkleigh, rush a logging camp, and start a workshop. Verga kills some darklings.OK, this is just wrong. I see some Gilden pioneers standing next to not one, not two, but five darkling armies. Verga kills two, but three remain. If this pioneer lives, I'll have trouble believing monsters hunt AIs. Actually, there are two pioneers, and some more darklings.
Procipinee attacks the slit skaths. Kitty and the skath kill one, but the other two use deadly bite on my skath. It only survives because it's level 10. The rest of the fight leaves everyone on my side heavily injured, and everyone on the other side heavily dead. Procipinee gets "Potential III", and kills some darklings. Alisa finds a lost library and a champion spear.Turn 105: Verga gets attacked by two darkling armies. It does not go well for him, so he is forced to use a fireball scroll. He gets "Apprentice Swordsman".My game crashes, so I have to reload.
Verga gets attacked again, and this time does not make it despite using the fireball scroll. He get "Pneumonia".When I am done, I am replaying this end-of-turn 10 times. If Verga gets attacked every time, or if that pioneer lives despite being so much easier to kill than Verga, that would be quite the indictment against the way players and AIs are treated, won't it?My game crashes again. What the Hell. Same crash, fighting some darklings next to a Kraxis city. I'll autoresolve next time.
This time, Verga lives, and gets "Dodge I".
Alhain-Al-Assan: cleric->scrying pool Leadanna kills some wolves. Alisa finds a blizzard scroll. Procipinee finds a pair of rusty vanbraces, kills some darklings, and loots and a boar spear.
The above has not happened in this reload yet. I hate alternative pasts. These crashes have pissed me off, I'll continue later.
Here a pictures of the pioneers who remained unmolested despite Verga, much tougher, got attacked three times in a row.
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