Many players have complained that the monsters treat AI differently than they treat the player. Brad says that on challenging, the monsters treat the AI exactly the same way they treat the player.
Many players claim that the AI dogpile on the player without rhyme or reason. Brad says that this only happens on higher difficulties.
Brad may be right. I would not know, I seldom play Expert, and never below that.
This is why I am going to play ironman on challenging with what is considered the worst sovereign, Queen Procipinee. When the game is over (or has become too boring) and I will go back to my saves, and take a look at what the AI is doing (someone will have to tell me how, but I know it can be done)
By the way, do you have to do something before you start the game to be able to look at the AI moves from saves? If so, I would really appreciate it if you tell me before I start. (Which will be about 30 minutes from the timestamp of this post)
The experiment has been concluded, and the results can be found here.
Oh, yes, I'm aware of her crown, but her -1 to hit points makes her a very fragile warrior in the early-mid game, even with "Courage".
I have the crown on Alisa, who wears 6 enchantments, and has been carrying my game on her shoulders since turn 1.
The problem with the present situation is that the bonuses start to matter only in mid game, and Pariden is very weak in the early game.
Yeah, Procipinee has always been one of the sillier builds. Her strength (summoning) isn't all that great IMO, and not only does she have a pretty bad weakness, the only reason she gets the crown seems to be for story purposes... except for gameplay purposes, she often just ends up giving it to the first hero she comes across... which makes no sense. I usually make a custom sovereign when I play with Pariden.
I don't really have a problem with Pariden as a faction or Amarian Blood in general, but I really wish they would have Noble's Legacy cast all at once on affected units instead of by individual units... it gets REALLY annoying when your army grows.
Anyway, time for my comments. This time I will focus on the way monsters treat player towns. I make no secret of this, I found myself pretty hard pressed the last few turns, i.e. I was forced to make moves which I did not feel were 100% safe. I did not expect this to happen on challenging.
I started this game very conservatively. I didn't want to outpace the AI too much, and I had a side which I did not know well.
I had last played Procipinee a long time ago, when heroes were mighty, hit points were much higher, regeneration worked in combat, shards gave 3 mana per turn, and outposts developed resources without tying up cities. Each of these things has changed and has made things worse for Procipinee.
To make a long story short, I knew I was playing a very weak side, I did not want to grow too strongly, and I settled way more cautiously than I usually do. Those who have watched my playthroughs know that I usually place cities everywhere I can, take out skaths and umberdroths casually, and cleanse the dragons and slags around turns 60-80. In this game, I left two prime spots unsettled because of dragons and slags, left resources unclaimed, and even knitted my dominion together by linking upgraded outposts across ocean straights (as not to wake an obsidian golem)
Nevertheless, on turn 74, despite all of my precautions, an umberdroth headed straight for my city. It would head to a different city when my troops would guard the city, but it would target it at once as soon as they left it. A few turns later, an army of silt skaths woke up and immediately headed towards another city of mine. Procipinee waltzed with it for 9 turns!
Now, understand that without an effective heroine (Alisa) or without the lucky find of the collar (which gave me the skath) Pariden would have no chance whatsoever in stopping the umberdroth or skaths. None. Sure, I could have found Ralle, or a darkling cloak, or a quest map, or a guiding longbow... but without a lucky find and the knowledge to exploit it, I would have been D.E.A.D.
The monsters behavior did not appear random at all. It was very efficient, they were seeking out weakness, and backing off on the very turn conditions changed.
It is my firm belief that the enemy AIs could not have dealt with something like this AT ALL.
I have not looked at the AIs yet. I will once the game is over. But I know that Yithril's pathetic swamp city was a softer target than Raven's Heart, and that the lone Verga was a much softer target than Procipinee's army. Still, the unberdroth always came at me.
Maybe it was just bad luck. Maybe the AIs have been mauled much worse than I nearly was. I have reasons to believe it, as the Great Mill was taken, but then became available. I WILL know once I revisit the turns with FoW disabled. I WILL revisit this topic.
Still, I am making a note for things I will check after the play through is done.
1. I will park a pioneer of mine next to the Gilden pioneer that has been ending a dozen turns next to a troll (I keep extraditing it there) and roll the dice until one pioneer gets attacked.
2. I will roll the dice ten times when the umberdroth is between Procipinee and Verga (Procipinee being 5 times stronger) and see how many times Verga gets attacked (In the play-through, the umberdroth attacked Procipinee)
3. I will look for monsters woken up by the AI dominion, and see whether they bee-line for my cities the way the crag spawns, the air elemental, the umberdroth and skaths did. NONE of them chose to wander off when they had the strength to attack a city.
I've updated the AI and performance if you're interested in trying it out:
https://forums.elementalgame.com/434964
I will play until I feel the game is won, and then I will see what the AI was doing out of my sight.
Then I will set up localized tests, like the ones described above, and run them enough times to get a statistically significant sample.
I will definitely try the next version (I've been recovering from surgery since the 5th, and can't do much else... not that I could do much else before ), but I believe in finishing experiments before starting new ones. I helps you in refining the theory.
You rock Tuidjy!
procipinee used to be really buff because of her crown when regeneration was usable in tactical, i think its loss hurt her the most
Well only because she needed it, keeping the 1 mana per turn for regeneration was simple, the only thing the crown is good for is keeping all the silly enchants on your main hero without expense (You either have more mana for spells, or more mana for a secondary hero's enchantments).
I always pop enchantments on hero's, since this is the best way I know of to use my mana. (Except the spell blind)
Thank you mr T () for doing this, its pretty awesome of you to spend hours on this, while meatheads like me is testing out 5 new games at the same time
Sincerely~ Kongdej
Before essence came around, Procipinee's crown was always part of all my builds. But with essence, you do not need mana to maintain city enchantments, so the basic +2 from your sovereign goes a long way.
Furthermore, regeneration is worthless for the sovereign, right now, because it will not help you in combat. Especially on ridiculous and higher, it does not matter much out of combat either, because if you are getting hurt, you will probably die anyway, but if you live, your high levels quickly outpace the pathetic strategical regeneration from the spell.
So..
1) Procipinee's best toy became worthless
2) Her life magic lost its most important spell
3) Her outposts became more expensive, and spamming them became pointless, because a city was needed to actually develop the resources.
4) Her people lost 50% of their level hit points, as opposed to 25%
5) Her summons remained one of the least effective powers (they aren't around early game, and they do not scale up even in mid game)
6) She starts without Fire (for offense) or Earth (for defense and production)
7) Her people's bonus only comes into play mid game, and is insignificant until late game (and that only if you're gaining territory. i.e. winning anyway)
8) I hear Procipinee is getting an extra nerf in 1.01 (She gets 'Weak' so she can't fight even if she gets lucky with loot)
Basically, Procipinee sucks. I would never take her to Ridiculous. If I had to, I'd hope for a decent hero with Fire/Earth (Ralle is the best, in my opinion) I have no idea what I'd try if I had drawn Lisbeth the Weak, for example.
Since it is quite clear that Procipinee is seriously underpowered, what rebalancing would you suggest to the devs to make her and her faction worth playing? Would it include 1/2 hit point per level negative instead of 1?
I upped the power of here blood. It makes her weak early on, but if you focus on getting shards, her faction can be quite competent. Basically you get +Hp from shards instead of level. This allows you to prioritize on towns and conclaves without going after fortresses. A very interesting faction difference. Plays like a different game.
I honestly would like to keep the -1 hp weakness, because I think that it gives the side flavor.
I'm also OK with the shard bonuses, because they are unique and interesting. I would slightly re-balance those, though. I would make Earth shards give +1 defense, and I would add a bonus for life/death shards. Life would give you +1 to hit points AND +1 hit point healed at the beginning of combat. Each Death shard would give the troops +1 hp when they kill an unit.
I like BlackRainZ's idea to give Procipinee her own 'signature' spells, the way that Ceresa has hers. Off the top of my head, while trying not to suggest stuff that would require too much work to add to the game.
1. Tactical regeneration is a game changer, but I do not see a problem with having it as a combat only spell.
2. A mass heal/buff that doubles all the race effects (i.e. an extra defense/resist/etc... per shard)
3. A spell that acts like "Death ward", but combat only, cheaper, and that brings the unit back at 1hp, not 50%.
4. An unique city enchantment. -1 occupation penalty per turn. "Rightful Ruler" or something.
... Hell, I'm sure everyone here could suggest an interesting spell
As I mentioned earlier, I don't find Pariden or Amarian Blood a big problem... even the lowered HP can be countered (using towns for HP bonuses).
The problem, I think, is Procipinee herself, her build just doesn't synergize very well, IMO. Summoner, as I mentioned, isn't a great pick (might need a slight buff). Her magic path is also iffy at best, and she's too reliant on buying spell books to make up for it... and even if she does, she can't level them like someone who's more focused on the right paths (not to mention costly - both research and gold wise). This might be a problem with magic path balance, so it is possible to fix simply by addressing that problem over all. The most obvious solution in my mind would be to add a couple of decent enchantments to Life/Water that costs a bit of mana to maintain. This, in turn, would make her crown particularly useful again.
Oh yeah, I was going to do a rebalance of her crown to have a more magical build. Anyone have some ideas for what a headband can do for mages?
Extra dodge - it shines so brightly the attacker is dazzled and misses more
Thanks Tuidjy for your tests in challenging. I totally agree with your conclusions. My last game in challenging, I had to quit, because of that: the al 3 factions were at war at me, I could do nothing but defending from all of them. Heroes came wih 2 streng traits, and great weapons and chain armour...
So, I nerfed myself and I went to a normal game, but I started surrounded by 2 shaman armies (~50/40/150) and a craig spawn army (76/76/83) wandering near my capital on early turns....IDK if I should go on this or start again.
I think the AI has been too powered now in challenging...I will play in nomal to see what happens...
Beyond that it is also ridicules you don't seem to understand different people play different ways.. I like attacking the AI and taking his cities rather early on. (mainly because I believe the AI cheats and knows exactly where all the good spots are..) So if there is a medium or strong monster next to the city I can't do that..
AI is still stupid - it is easy to kill most empires in the early game if you act quickly. As a rule, one must declare war on every empire they meet in early game - then seek and conquer their undefended capital. Rinse and repeat. (I was playing Tarth, so no monsters attack me out their own accord, so I was able to scout areas quickly).
Sometimes though you need to appreciate their cunning - I had an undefended pioneer once and AI proposed me peace (in exchange for pioneer life I reckon).
Also, magic is way too powerful. Basically - research should go on civilization first, to build early wonders, then get horsemen from warfare, and then magic all the way. A lot of monsters in the game are invulnerable to normal weapons - huge defense in all categories + maul e.g. - no matter what you do, you are doomed. But those monsters have zilch magic resistance. So here you go.
Still, game is very enjoyable. I am even OK with occasional CTD (twice) and no sound (always glitches for me in this game, esp. when one switches to city details).
I am sure Stardock will hone AI eventually to perfection - it is way better now compared to EWOM. To be honest, instead of polishing AI I would rather them fix their random map generator, which is a PITA now. An there is no way to suppress water e.g. Because with water, maps look really stupid and unnatural, rivers flowing entirely randomly, lakes of all sizes in entirely stupid locations. It is not a generator, it is a perforator. And yet there were so many good games with good map generation - I am sure there is a way to do it right.
Tuidjy as always, a great examination and as a side effect some great advice for any player in your analysis.
I still think there is a side effect is a bigger problem. Let's say that the mobs are more inclined to attack the player, that's fine I suppose. Let's say there is a chance that they attack the AI, but less of one. That is fine. Here, in my opinion, is the problem.
The AI doesn't care.
Not at all. It settles will nilly next obsidian golems and skaths and juggernauts and what not. Sometimes they attack the AI. You know what happens most of the time? The AI actions activate the mob and the player has to deal with it. It is supremely frustrating when around turn 80, when you are not pursuing a military domination and you have had good relations and good trade with a neighbor kingdom, a group containing a juggernaut, 2 cave bears and a couple wolves wander out of the AI's territory. Setting aside the strange team-ups I have been seeing (an obsidian golem and 7 darkings are my favorite, I picture these gibbering midgets running around following a giant statue that completely ignores them), making the player suffer for the AI's poor behaviour is just not fun. I would just assume have the mobs ignore the AI then have this happen.
I'll tell you why. Many gamers like me perfer to play the game on the challange level where no one cheats which for FE is on Challanging, Even if we just started to play for the first time. It is also an ego thing Currently the AI as you all know is cheating still on challangeing hence this thread which Frogboy is going to handled as he metioned earlier.
By the way why isn't normal the setting with no cheating by player or AI?
Very much agreed! When all of the magic nerfing took place, she's now the most difficult, least powerful sovereign of the whole batch. I wonder how she fares in AI matches. I never saw her on the top of the list. Love to see even more magic abilities as well as a boost or removal of Summoner.
Actully it should go like this:
Beginner - cheats are heavely in players favor.
Easy - Players given bonuses that the AI does not have.
Normal - No cheating of any kind from either player or AI (currently this is what Challange is)
Challange - AI resources are boosted by a certain percentage. They start with a little more money and mana.
Hard - AI are given bonus units. A lot more gold and money when starting. and thier resources are boosted a lot.
Don't think we need to go beyond that. Also at no time should the AI be able to settle land the players could not nor by thinks for free.
Ahh see that is your problem. You have an I-phone and I-phones do odd things to people just look at the Occupoopers Wallstreet idiots (they were I-phone users.)
You need to through that phone in the trash and come on over to the winning team and get an Android. Galaxy 2 or 3 is the way to go.
I don't think the crown is the problem, its still a decent pick, and can easily hold 4-5 free enchantments on one unit (giving 4-5 free mana per turn, compared to "Attunement's" 1.
While now not an "Auto-Pick", its now a choice of if you want a powered champ.
It would boost the crown if there were more unit enchantments sown out through the magic system.
I think the problem with Queen Porcupine is: She spends most her points on pointless spell progression, especially when she mid-game can buy books to learn air and water magic.
She starts with the most useless of weapons, a weapon more rubbish than "Warstaff", I still favour picking rusty swords, even though they were brought closer together with the other weapons.
Her weakness, "Inefficient" is terrible! if it worked as supposed to I would never play her, now it just says "Your Sovereign should keep away from cities" since when she nears one of her towns she terrifyes the populace so much they go into hiding and slow production to a halt.The new weakness "spoiled" by Derek (Or it was a stray thought by Derek) which was "Weak" (-1 attack damage, -15 encumberance) is a terrible flaw, now its a mage thing who can't use bows for good, should never enter melee since she can't wear enough armour, and even if you find a mage staff (which are terrible for heroes, I find anyways) then she will still not wear any armour, have very low HP, be slow and generally just die.
All that "saves" her right now is the ability to summon a shadow Warg so I can get out of my starting hole, but the "Summoner" background is still terrible after turn 25, it doesn't really do anything but give you a free Warg, mostly because summons in this game scales with nothing.
Hope I didn't sound too angry though Just hope they find some duct tape to fix the balance with
1 is for normal and the other one is for challenging..
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