Many players have complained that the monsters treat AI differently than they treat the player. Brad says that on challenging, the monsters treat the AI exactly the same way they treat the player.
Many players claim that the AI dogpile on the player without rhyme or reason. Brad says that this only happens on higher difficulties.
Brad may be right. I would not know, I seldom play Expert, and never below that.
This is why I am going to play ironman on challenging with what is considered the worst sovereign, Queen Procipinee. When the game is over (or has become too boring) and I will go back to my saves, and take a look at what the AI is doing (someone will have to tell me how, but I know it can be done)
By the way, do you have to do something before you start the game to be able to look at the AI moves from saves? If so, I would really appreciate it if you tell me before I start. (Which will be about 30 minutes from the timestamp of this post)
The experiment has been concluded, and the results can be found here.
Brad:
I'm sure you are going to look into this and I hate to say this but... I TOLD YOU SO I TOLD YOU SO J/K Either way we (or maybe just I) believe in you and I trust that what ever is a bug you will fix .
To OP:
Once again I just wanted to say thank you!
I think I found the issue with the extra attributes on AI champions. The difficulty level is read in as a float but is converted and rounded up as an integer resulting in challenging (12.5) to be treated as a 13 and there's code looking for >12.5. So I think I have that nailed. This also affects the cost of rushing production.
Regarding monsters, I haven't seen anything in this thread that indicate that the monsters are treating the AI players any differently than the human ones. That code is pretty straight forward.
However, I've made some adjustments on lower difficulty levels to make it easier but that'll require a data check in.
That said, I don't want to spend too much time on this kind of thing. I'd rather focus on making the AI, overall, more intelligent. If people want to believe I'm "lying" about the AI on challenging playing the same rules as the human, that's their choice.
At end of the day, my objective is to create an AI that provides players an enjoyable experience. I try to do that by having the AI play the same game as the players do with the bonuses the AI gets as transparent as possible and winning through effective strategy (building up cities intelligently, training the right soldiers at the right time, scouting the world for good spots, intelligently flanking enemy positions to attack weaker areas of an enemy's empire, and so on).
The bugs mentioned here are important. But let's keep it in perspective, a bug where an AI champion getting more weight capacity isn't going to change the course of a given game. If we were trying to "cheat" and hide it, we could easily (we could simply not display this stuff). The point being, it's important to fix bugs but it's also important to spend that finite available time on making the AI smarter, the game perform better, adding new UI features, etc.
Thank you and I to would like to see the AI become smarter and the game to be overall improved. So far I have found no reason to doubt that you can do this.
At this point, I agree with the above. Sure, I keep seeing the AI waltz past the monsters, but the monsters have been very passive towards me as well. I just do not give them opportunities to attack me, because I am used to not ending turn next to monsters. The few times it has happened, it has gone both ways - I have been jumped, and I have been left alone. So has the AI.
There is something that bothers me though. The way the monsters are extremely aggressive toward my cities. In the stuff I've posted, it has been nothing worse that a crag spawn or a bandit army, but by turn 80, I'm fighting mostly against monsters. (I'll post soon)
The problem is, there is no way the AI could have possibly had to deal with Air Elementals, Umberdroths and Silt Skaths the way I've had. But I will wait to discuss this until I post the logs.
On a completely unrelated subject, Pariden, especially as led by Procipinee, is a terrible faction. Alisa is carrying my game.
Bravo to the work of OP.
Thanks for showing me the importance of production and realm spells.
I also tried challenging to have same AI abilities like players have.
and was steamrolled.
I think AI also settled city where it shouldn't.
Please Brad, fix that and AI champion supertraits for the next patch.
Thanks.
I suppose there will always be players who hates losing, but I'm not one of them. In fact, I like it a lot when I get challenged and have to figure out ways to overcome those difficulties. Losing only to come back and winning the next time makes it all the more sweet. To me, that's one of the reason you want a good AI, but if the AI isn't up to par, it's okay if it gets some advantages, the important part is for them to provide the challenge, not the fair play. If a game (strategy or not) is too easy it actually loses appeal (this is how I felt towards Civ V and Warlock for example) because I feel like I'm just coasting to victory. Now that might be just me, but I honestly think a lot of people who plays strategy games also feels this way to some extent... besides, it's not like you can't play it at a lower difficulty. As for the types of players who leaves immediately after losing once or twice, I'm not sure they will ever really like these kind of games no matter how fair you try to make it. These people are probably better suited to all those casual games people are pumping out nowadays.
So while I'm all for looking into these bugs (because it's better to not have them)... to me, this whole deal about whether the AI is playing EXACTLY the same as a human is a bit silly... mainly because I always let it cheat anyways. This is pretty much how it is with every other game... I'm not sure why you guys are so enraged over it in this one.
In my mind, if there's any real problem for new players, it's that the game is very complex and there's not enough of a guide on some of the basic strategies that you need to employ at the beginning of the game. Basically, because the first few things you do in the game is rather important, you kind of have to start with a rough strategy in mind and not just experiment and mess around in the beginning. This makes the game unfriendly to new players... because if you make a couple of mistake, or waste too much time messing around, the steam roller effect kicks in and you end up getting rolled. THIS is what I feel the most important issue regarding new players, not that the AI is getting an advantage here or there, intentionally or not.
This is my point.. II bet if you reseed or whatever it's called. You will get to a map where the AI builds a city right next to a monster and then that is it. The monster will be its guardian angel tell the end of time..
If it were opposite then you'd be screwed..
If you don't believe me there is a documented case on this very forums..
No one here thinks you're lying.. Well except for one guy who is best ignored..
Completely understandable Frogboy, I would even vote for leaving it as is, and siphon that development time into specific units AI (those spiders could poison and avoid melee to have the target die on their own, those militias in city are xpendable, no need to retreat them, those sweeping units should positon themselves to maximise the damage output)
The point is that you repeatedly claim, that the AI is playing the same game as players up to challenging. This is to prove that the AI is much more complex, proficinet, adaptable, 'intelligent' than in any other 4x game. A noble cause. Applaud.
However you have so many hardcoded bonuses, that the claim is false as proven by the OP's identified bugs
You don't want to spend too much time on this - put a description on challenging that the AI is having minimal bonuses only. Nobody will object and it still would be the best, multithreaded AI I've ever seen. You want to continue with 'up to challenging - no bonuses for AI' make sure there are none, and it will take time.
Monsters are not that difficult to kill. That is just ridiculous. Especially on lower levels. I understand newer players may not realize it at first, but it becomes rather apparent. Umberdroths, etc. are easy enough with a few decent units and a few decent heroes. They shouldn't pose that much of a problem. I think the problem may be more exposed on smaller maps though. I guess some of the complaints people may be having is also due to the fact they are playing small maps. The reason for this being that there isn't a whole lot of area so you can't get around powerful monsters as easily.
Challenging AI can't be too hard, as long as it doesn't cheat. Most veteran players would say challenging isn't hard enough. The AI still does some things I don't like such as not moving for several turns.
I don't want an X-Com scenario where you have to choose between gimped AI or cheating AI (and that right there is half the reason I'm not buying the game)
Normal AI is what's supposed to be normal.
Well he said Challenging wasn't working correctly and was getting certain bonuses it shouldn't have, which Brad said will be fixed.
You have to be kidding me. Are you telling me that YOU would have no trouble fighting off an umberdroth's army bee-lining for your third city, on turn 60-70, with Pariden's troops, Procipinee, and a hero?
I am playing on a large map. I placed my first two cities as close to my capital as possible. I did NOT settle two other locations because they were too close to dragons/slags. These two SAFEST cities eventually awoke umberdroths and silt skaths that were 3-4 tiles distant. Yes, I dealt with them, but I am anything but a newbie. Such a theoretical newbie would have been annihilated without a chance in Hell.
Can you, please, explain how you would develop your Pariden so that you can handle (Umberdroth + air shrill x 4) and (silt skath x 3) on turn 70? And once you have done so, explain how long it took you to develop those strategies?
Frogboy, (I won't call you by your real name because you don't know mine, and it's just weird to me.)
These are the bugs from this thread you have acknowledged which I think is all of them.
1. The computer can settle where they should not be able to settle. https://forums.elementalgame.com/435073/get;3261277
2. The challenging A.I is getting some bonuses it otherwise should not due to a rounding error. https://forums.elementalgame.com/435073/get;3262095
3. Units are somehow getting bonuses when they should not. https://forums.elementalgame.com/435073/get;3262095
Deciding which bugs you wish to smash and in what order is of course up to you guys. However if there are units getting strength bugs there maybe other traits skipping around we have not noticed yet. The code causing it could be doing other not nice stuff, but you already know that.
I won't get into the psychology of difficulty level naming but I will say that I like a level playing field. If the game is telling me I have one when I do not then that is a problem in my book. If you say the monsters are being fair I don't doubt it unless I see otherwise. I don't have the time, skill or inclination to look "under the hood".
I don't feel that the game needs to be easier on lower difficulties. I think people having trouble with them are playing poorly or combining bonuses that make no sense. I was losing (I think) a game on easy and it was because I had not figured out things like taxes and city enchantments. I also was in an exceptionally poor position. It happens. My second game I destroyed the computer with no problems at all. My third game is kind of a toss up at this point. Depends on if the computer decides to attack or not.
Overall I think this is a good game. You did a good job, pat yourself on the back, relax a little, then lets do a second run through and polish this thing levels that blind.
v/r
Novalith
I belive in Frogboys work, the AI will evolve. There are some bugs i see them too, but i hope he will spend his time to evolve the AI and not to dumb it down.
I have a problem cause the challanging AI cant develope on my world settings. I had to stop playing 3rd time, cause on dense monster setting there are no AI cities. I had 4-5 cities and 150 FP. But when i met an AI player he had only 1-2 cities and 30-40 FP. So i cheated and looked the others and they had only 1-2 cities too. So i stopped playing cause there where no challange anymore.
You must be careful not to make the AI difficulty lower than the world's difficulty. That really cripples the AI. For example, Expert AI can't expand at all in a ridiculous/dense world. I have found that the best way is to keep the AI and the world difficulties the same.
Thx but it was on Challanging/challanging. On first map tha Ai was "closed" by a dragon. The other 2 by them self's. Secend map was prebuild map, i dont know why they cant develop. Now i am trying to draw a map, to help the AI but maybe i am too "noob" for this or the, map making tool is full of bugs.
That post wasn't in reply to your specific situation. I was posting in regards to what evilmario said and I should have quoted him so that it was clear. He said:
"This is my point.. II bet if you reseed or whatever it's called. You will get to a map where the AI builds a city right next to a monster and then that is it. The monster will be its guardian angel tell the end of time.."
and I just thought that post was a little ridiculous because it isn't that hard to kill monsters once your ready to invade. I was not saying that an army of umberdroths heading to your city on turn 60-70 is easy, but you also play on more ridiculous settings. New players who are playing on lower settings shouldn't have this problem, unless they are playing on a small map and get unlucky.
THe setting is challenging, the point of the thread.
Your ready to invade on turn 1. That monster will likely be 100x harder then the city defences.
What are you talking about? No one is ready to invade on turn 1 as your first priority is that you should be scouting, leveling up your heroes and expanding. If you are looking to invade on turn 1 than your foolish. Learn how to read and comprehend before posting. If you had actually read what I wrote and what I was commenting on then you would not have said what you did. I was specifically replying to someone who said that a monster would be a major impediment to attacking an AI city. This is not true. It might be at first due to lack of men but once you get a decent start going, especially on challenging, monsters wont be that difficult to take out. I have had no problems on Challenging with monsters but yeah if a group of umberdroths came at me on turn 60 and attacked my city I would lose, but this has never happened to me. I play on large maps so maybe that is why. I usually by turn 100 or so can take out any monsters I need to. A few groups of soldiers with leather armor and spears and a couple of decent champions is all I ever need. I use magic heavily as well. Fire magic with a decent spellcasting mage is quite effective.
I don't use Pariden exactly, but I use a custom Sov and a faction identical to Pariden. I don't use any special traits or anything. My Sov is identical to Procipinee except he has only fire magic. Faction is pretty much identical to Pariden, I just added one different trait I think. With a few levels, my sovereign can cast fireball for like 50-60 dmg. I play with dense magic so I usually have tons of mana. Kite the monsters and cast fireball and firedart. Air shrills die in one shot to fireball. umberdroth would be left, but a couple of firedarts takes it out before it can ever reach me. Have a few useless units up front for protection. I always win this way.
Oh I get plenty of mana because I get to build scrying pools and cast meditation on all my cities and with a couple shards am easily pumping out 20 or so mana a turn, after 60 turns easily have 500 or more mana.
Yes, but you have to admit that this makes all the difference in the world. Pariden/Procipinee do not have ANYTHING to throw at monsters. No hit points like Gilden, no defense like Krax, no Strength like Trogs, no death/fire like Resoln/Magnar.
All Water, Air and Life magic do, in the early game, is increasing the time it takes the enemy to kill you.
Yup, that's what I'm doing in this game as well. It's just that I have no way of converting it to damage.
I understand Tuidjy. You are right about Procipinee. I was actually never arguing against you. I always play with a fire mage and am very successful with it. There are other ways to play, this is the way I like to play the game.
I think Procipinee should get a magic school of her own, like Ceresa has.
That is a damn good idea. But I am not quite sure what form it would take. Something to boost combat prowess, but without entering death and fire magic territory. Maybe actually tactical regeneration, HP bonuses, a chance to get double turns, etc? Overflowing with life, of a sort.
Anyway, time to advance the game.
Also, I am sure you are aware of this but Procipinee can carry any buff without costing any mana maintenance so she can turn into quite the warrior with the right choices made. A hero with some other magic schools would be helpful too.
I think that the Amarian faction should not suffer the minus 1 hp per level and Procipinee should get some serious buff spells. Perhaps global spells that give all units bonuses to HP and initiative and stuff. This is sort of done through the amarian traits but that is assuming you have the right shards.
Turns 63-82
Turn 63: "Constuction"->"Mounted warfare". Tenfell: earth altar->fire altar. Alisa is attacked by an army of ignys, gets "Apprentice swordsman", and loots an ice mace. Right after she got better with cutting weapons. Ah well. Procipinee kills a banished ogre. I notice that the Kraxis scouts are gone. The bears must have eaten them. I also notice that the Great Mill is unavailable. Someone must have started building it.Turn 64: Raven's heart: warg den -> mason. Blackstead: workshop->mason. My dominion wakes up an air elemental's army. Alisa heads to intercept, and I have enough mana to Freeze it if necessary. Except I do not have Water II. Damn, I am slipping. Procipinee find a wellspring scroll in the ogre's lair. Hagudst rushes the town hall, and starts a scrying pool.Turn 65: "Mounted combat"->"Education". New Pariden: inn->earth altar. Tenfeel: fire altar->apiary. Alisa loots a library. And now we have a problem. The Air elemental seems to be headed straight for Raven's Heart. Alisa will not be able to catch it, and I have neither Freeze nor Tremor, which is a big screw up. I use a arcane monument to place Alisa in friendly dominion, so that she can buy a horse, so that she can catch the Ait Elemental. This is a big expense that I could have done without.Turn 66: Alisa catches the the air elemental's army at the edge of Raven's heart, and makes short work of it. Leadanna find a cluster of fertile tiles but there is too much swampland for a city to grow there.Turn 67: "Education"->"Craftsmanship". Blackstead finishes the mason. I erect an arcane monolith to link Hagudst to my dominion, and start making it higher in Blackstead. I rush the scrying pool in Hagudst, and start a cleric. Leadanna gets attacked by bandits, and has to use her scroll of fireball to survive. She then kills some more bandits.Alisa loots a pair of naja skin gauntlets.Turn 68: New Pariden: earth altar->mason. Tenfell: apiary->mason. Raven's Heart: mason->school. Procipinee kills a crag spawn. Leadanna loots a round shield. Too bad she has no one-handed weapons. The pioneers settle New Serane on a 3/2/3 tile. I cast "Enchanted Hammers", "Inspiration", "Meditation", and start working on a monument.Turn 69: Raven's heart grows into a town. Procipinee and Alisa join and attack the wildling's camp for the kidnappers quest. The warg dies, and I decide that there's no point in summoning another. Procipinee gains "Knowledge", and Alisa gets "Skilled Swordsman". No pioneers are awaraded, though. Also, the army loses all its remaining move, which leaves us next to a skath army. Not good.Turn 70: The skaths do not attack. Blackstead finishes upgrading the outpost, and Hagudst is linked to the dominion. Blackstead starts building a study.Procipinee and Alisa sell their loot, and get enough to buy a horse for the queen. I now have a mage/fighter/beast stack, and will cleanse the homelands of anything short of a BB (big beasty).Turn 71: The Yithril champion Dosia attempts to lead an army of pioneers across my lands, headed straight for the fertile tile in my backyard. I kick them out. I wonder whether I should let them cross to see whether they are exploring, or cheating by knowing where everything is. Procipinee's stack kills a crag spawn's army. My skath nearly dies. I guess it is finally becoming obsolete. Alisa is far tougher at this point. In any case, Procipinee gets "Potential II" and loots a burning battleaxe from the lair. The stack continues on the "Kitty" quest. I manage to get Procipinee knocked out in the fight. I guess one of the bandits was tougher than he looked. Kitty is a pretty nice addition to the stack. I rush the monument in New Serane, and start a bell tower. I rush the cleric in Hagudst, and start developing a wild horse stable. What the hell. The Great Mill is all of a sudden available. The only way I can see this happening is if someone razed the city in which it was being built. I wonder what is going on in the world. In any case, I start building the Great Mill in Raven's Heart.Turn 72: Tenfell: mason->well. I rush the stables in Hagudst, and start working on a workshop. Leadanna loots a scroll of oratory, and uses it immediately.Turn 73: Contact with Gilden. New Pariden: mason -> grocer. Raven's Heart: school->grocer. Blackstead: study->school. Leadanna clears some rats for a quest, then erects some arcane monoliths to keep Gilden's pioneers away. A number of resources are queued for Tenfell.Turn 74: Gilden and Yithril keep sending pioneers into my lands, and I keep chasing them out. An unberdroth wakes up and heads straight towards Raven's Heart. Procipinee's army has to head back.Turn 75: Blackstead becomes a conclave. Tenfell:well->iron mine. I rush a stable upgrade in New Serrane, and continue work on the bell tower. For three turns, the Gilden pioneers have been in range of a troll without being attacked. As Leadanna keeps exploring, it becomes apparent that they must have spent at least three turns in range of a great wolf's army. Leadanna will turn back, because there's no way she's taking that risk. The umberdroth army is at the edge of Raven's heart. I'm not sure Procipinee can handle them, so I have her enter the city for the added militia troops. Turn 76: Tenfell: iron mine->fire altar. I rush the bell tower in New Serrane. The umberdroth does not attack Raven's heart, but heads toward Blackstead. I send Procipinee and her army out of town, towards the umberdroth vacated lair.Turn 77: "Construction"->"Cooperation". Raven's Heart: grocer->mill. Hagudst: workshop->mason. Procipinee loots a scinan broadsword, and gives it to Alisa.Turn 78: Blackstead: school->earth altar. New Pariden: grocer->festival. Tenfell: fire altar->earth altar. Leadanna completes the rat catcher quest, pockets 100 Gildar and becomes a governor. She heads back to the homelands, erecting arcane monoliths along the way. The umberdroth moves towards Procipinee. Procipinee tries to lead it away from Raven's Heart.Turn 79: The umberdroth heads towards Raven's Heart. Procipinee enters the city. I switch the production from the mill to the pier, because of Procipinee's terrible effect on building times. She added two seasons to the mill's completion.Turn 80: Tenfell: earth altar->monument. Blackstead: earth altar->sage. New Serrane: clay quarry->workshop. The umberdroth does not attack but stays next to the city, so Procipinee can't leave. This is getting annoying. I am pretty sure she can take the army, but it's not a sure thing, and if she fails, it will wipe out multiple cities.Turn 81: Raven's heart: pier->well.Turn 82: "Cooperation"->"Economics". Tenfell: monument->monument. Hagudst: mason->mill. A silt skath army wakes up and heads straight to Tenfell. At this point, both the umberdroth and the skaths are one move away from destroying one of my cities. Clearly, it's time for urgent measures.I start building a heavy cavalry unit in Raven's Heart. I trade all of my research to Yithril, for cash. I rush the cavalry, add it to Procipinee's stack, and attack skaths, then the umberdroth's army. Procipinee becomes an "Air Mage", and Alisa a "Earth Disciple". The cavalry goes to level 3.I think this is a good time to pause, and make some comments.
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