Damage table for Anti-Medium weapons (AKA as LRFs):
Medium Armor 1.3333333
Very Light Armor 1.000000
That's right, LRFs are almost as good against corvettes as they are against light frigates...of course, this is easily overlooked since LRFs suck at turning and shooting the damn things....unless you are an ILLUMINATOR, in which case the sillly fighter behavior of corvettes doesn't matter...so what ends up happening is that massed illuminators practically become immune to corvettes....
Did some tests to confirm this:
40 illuminators vs. 80 TEC corvettes
Corvettes win, but with ridiculous losses (only about 25-30 survive)
50 illuminators vs. 100 TEC corvettes
Corvettes win with same ridiculous losses (only about 40 survive)
To put this into perspective:
75 LRMs vs. 100 TEC Corvettes
Corvettes win with hardly any losses (about 70 survive)
So.......
Once you start getting into the 30s or so with illuminators, corvettes essentially become a non issue...corvettes barely beat out the illuminators without defense vessels being involved, add those and nothing short of HCs or a powerful AoE can stop an Advent fleet...this is why AL and their coronata is so powerful, because you combine the best fleet with the best support ability (suppression) and 2nd best FFing ability (Unity Mass)...
This is an issue specifically with the illuminator, but how does one make the illuminator weaker against corvettes without removing the side weapons? I propose that the damage table be changed such that Anti-medium weapons no longer fair so well very light armor...maybe a value or .80 or .75 would be more appropriate...sure the illuminator will always have an advantage over the other LRFs when going against corvettes, but the LRM and kanrak make up for it with better focus fire...the current situation though is just ridiculous, there is no counter whatsoever against illuminators other than HCs, and that simply is not acceptable...
I could go another ten rounds with you if you want? I have the stamina.
Then whats all this thread about? If they don't counter corvettes then leave them alone and stop asking for them to be nerfed against corvettes. Why should you want to nerf them if you know that illuminators ate not going to be the first unit to ne built over flak where flak will be dominant enough to wipe corvettes before they even enter the battlefield? Troll some more with the next response. IM ready.
How can you even start a thread when the counter unit wins, but because it wins badly then you want a nerf on illums? Why are you even in that frame of mind? They wont be that many corvettes with flak around on the battlefield when the illums show up. You have chosen to challenge them so don't be a cry baby if you win and loose some.
Ugh, 4 pages of posts and you've only made me laugh once, you disappoint me RiddleKing...I wish Qu4r was here, he was much more entertaining....
Ermagahrd, I are can has be trolling other peeps.
Hi Seleuceia
Your post #47 was very informative. Albeit, is this information still at least remotely valid in the present state of the game? I stumbled here after searching for "corvette vs illuminator", as I noticed my vettes weren't doing as well as I hope they would against an advent fleet with illums (basically at this stage we had about 60 LF's each he went illums and i went vettes to counter). Again thanks for the info very informative.
This was interesting in particular, you see as a noob to this game I would consider running from this encounter. As on the surface it looks like advent has a nice numerical advantage. Are you saying that x1 Cobalt is roughly 5/6 better than x1 Disciple. Basically for every 5 cobalt advent needs 6 Disciples to even have some hope of winning (assuming both players are of equal skill/high skill).
Also if you were to take away the vettes. So now we have 24 Cobalts vs. 31 Disciples. Does this battle still favour the Cobalts? The only reason I ask is that I frequently see pure Lf fleets in the early stage of the game. Lastly, as TEC player should I even be bothered to build vettes vs advent fleet?
Hi Zyzy
In a word no. In my opinion you would never win by just building vettes vs an illum fleet. Vettes counter LRMs very easily but completely fail vs illums unless in such numbers where its not relevant anymore. Also advent can just add some defense vessels and your whole fleet becomes obsolete vs a ball of beam death. As advent the best way to counter illums is to make more illums!
Generally you would make some vettes to counter disp spams simply because lfs cant focus vettes very efficiently allowing the bulk or the back of your fleet to take them out while they are busy auto attacking. Very few players would target ship by ship in 50 ship+ battles and even if they do its not the most efficient way to win a battle as a lot of the damage would be overkill and wasted.
As for your first question, LFs are stronger than disps and it would depend on lvl of upgrades and whether Prog is present. Its possible for LFs to win that battle.
Hey Jingly
Thanks for reply. The typical scenario i encounter in MP games is the eventual illums coming to play as counter to my early fleet composition which tends to be (in most cases) 100% LFs. It seems then the best option would be (as TEC), to match illums with LRMs (and not vettes); HCs seem problematic due to time required to field a descent # of them + their eventual counter with bombers. In any case scouting seems very important here, so as to not get caught off guard and hopefully realise opponent is building illums before he has a chance to amass too much of them (so that i can actually keep up with my own LRMs).
Or lead with a Marza and play for getting it to level 6 before the illums begin to roll out in numbers(they aren't available until hostility T3 and have a long build time, so you have some time)- that said, while Corvettes don't hardcounter Illums like other LRF, it's not like the lose them them either. At equal supply cost vettes should still win, they'll just take significant losses in the process.
BY contrast if you mass LRM and the advent player counters by building vettes of their own you'll get massacred.
Another promising tactic is to play for an earlier then normal titan if you see the enemy massing illums- Illums are great for killing lots of frigates, but awful at focusfiring.
First, to directly answer your question regarding the specific encounter you quoted...disciples use 4 fleet supply while cobalts use 5, so in theory 5 disciples should be equivalent to 4 cobalts (in this case the theory is pretty close to the reality)
As for other things, here are my thoughts...
In pure LF fights, Cobalts and Disciples are close enough where other factors are going to be far more important...IMO disciples are better because they have more DPS per fleet supply and thus are better than cobalts at focusing on SBs or caps...as far as corvettes are concerned, TEC is the clear winner...this is why a cobalt+corvette fleet is stronger than a disciple+corvette fleet...the LFs are basically a wash, but the stronger TEC corvettes gives TEC the best raw fleet power in the early game...
Just to reiterate a point made earlier, LFs generally beat corvettes, so you (as TEC or Advent) really only should bring out the corvettes if you anticipate LRFs being brought against you...that said, if your opponent goes cap heavy then corvettes are better than LFs for that...
In small numbers, illuminators are still countered by corvettes...its the medium or large amounts of illuminators that are really troublesome and difficult to counter, and malice really nullifies any corvettes trying to counter the illuminators...Vasari corvettes drop like flies to illuminators and advent corvettes don't fair too well either...TEC corvettes aren't awful against illuminators but you would still probably be better going with other fleet compositions...
For TEC and Advent, you are almost always better trying to spam LFs before investing in other unit types....if you see your opponent bring out kanraks or LRMs, corvettes are the obvious ship to incorporate next....if you see your opponent start to bring out illuminators, TEC and possibly Advent corvettes will still work well for you....if your opponent has already amassed illuminators, then you are better building LRMs or your own illuminators...
If the Advent player has any combination of disciples, illuminators, and defense vessels (LF, LRF, and flak), then pure LRM or pure illuminators will work pretty well...your main advantage will be in your ability to kill SBs or caps...if however your opponent is going more an illuminator+corvette route, you will probably have to incorporate flak ships especially if you are TEC...
If you are Vasari, kanraks are probably your best bet against illuminators (assuming PM upgrades) but honestly Vasari frigates are pretty bad all around so hope you have some other advantage (economic, orkies, etc.)...
It's not uncommon for the deciding factor to be whoever micros their ships best...illuminators and flak require good micro to make sure all weapon banks are firing and that micro is often more relevant than the actual stats of the ships...
A general rule of thumb is that on a per cost basis, LF+corvette beats LRF+flak while on a per fleet supply basis it's the other way around....so basically, once fleet maintenance starts to nullify the per cost advantage of the LF+corvette fleet, it's probably time to change your fleet composition...
One detail that often gets overlooked...on a per fleet supply basis, illuminators and kanraks build a lot faster than LRMs...this means that if a player is getting fed or has a decent income rate, they are going to be able to replace their illuminators a lot faster than you can replace your LRMs...this is an important consideration that in some instances can be more relevant than the actual combat performances of the ships....
The they deserve the win for either having the better team that can feed, (yours can too) or they deserve the win because they are doing better than you.
I'm not sure how that follows....in the converse situation (TEC player spamming LRMs via feed), the TEC player won't be able to build an LRF fleet or replace LRF losses nearly as fast as a Vasari or Advent would be able to...
In short, Advent and Vasari have inherent advantages with the build times of their LRF...
Few thoughts on the above:
No skilled Vasari player (not that the race currently requires any skill to play) will ever go kanraks to counter mass illums, it just wont happen and if it does kanraks will get rolled so fast no amount of feed will help.
Secondly disps are the worst ships, with the exception of vettes, at engaging starbases - orkies mainly obviously. Assuming 3 labs for upgrades, you will lose all your disps to a 1 HP ( Wep?) upgrade orky. Controraty you will lose 0 LFs in the same fight especially with a lvl 2 marza for support.
Thirdly you get vettes not to counter ships as such but to mess with their auto attack as i wrote in the previous post, allowing you to get an edge in a battle even if you are slightly behind.
Skirmishers and Vasari corvettes will get rolled even harder...that leaves either pure sentinel spam or rushing HCs...
I've never seen someone skilled other than Greg (while trolling KoK) rush enforcers....I've also never seen someone do pure sentinel spam...
I'm not saying kanraks work, cause they don't....but Vasari don't exactly have a good option there...
I have absolutely no idea where you get this....I've had equal luck with both disciples and cobalts against orkies...disciples have slightly better DPS per fleet supply while cobalts have slightly better HP per ship, there isn't going to be too much of a difference between them...furthermore, if you are killing an orky with a marza, that has no bearing on the quality of your cobalts...
don't kill the messenger Selecuceia but someone told me you smell funny.. whats your steam id?
Trust me on this, its something i ve been using quite successfully since i learned it from doci, while learning how to play MP. Get 3 labs, get ships upgrades, test it yourself and you ll find that all discs will die in an above example and ALL/95%+ LFS will survive and kill the starbase.
Reason i mentioned Marza is because its insane vs orkies especially in comparison to say Prog. Since only one bank of weapons can attack the starbase it has the highest dps output of all cap ships - 55.8. Compare that to a 22 from Prog it is a huge difference. And secondly Marza's Nuke + Passive shells put two Damage over time debuffs on the starbase basically preventing it from self healing or regenerating.
You are not getting 3 labs of any sort and all the unlocked ship upgrades before you are getting Orky rushed...if someone tries to Orky rush you at that stage of the game while your fleet is there, you will kill the Orky pretty much regardless of what ships you have...
No one is questioning the Marza's awesomeness at focus firing...but that is independent of the quality of cobalts vs. disciples, and even more irrelevant when talking about fleet battles (which is what this entire thread is about)...
If you have ~150 fleet supply of LFs, you are killing an Orky that tries to rush you...the only reason you wouldn't is if you didn't get to it before if had finished building and upgraded its weapons...if you have lots of ship upgrades, then you should have ~250 fleet supply of LFs, and it won't matter whether you are Advent or TEC: an Orky with only 1 weapon upgrade is going down...
hmm...interesting convos...i never really use flak as i heard lots of bad thinks about them so always too scared to use them early. I also didn't know about this 1:4 ratio.
If not for pure Lf fleets, I also typically see mixed early game fleets of say 60 Lfs + 40 vettes. I guess if a 1-4/5 ratio to flak:vette holds true as some have stated. Then it seems reasonable to add x10 flak to counter his 40 vettes. Say a fleet of x60 Lfs (to match opponents LFs), x10 flak to counter opponents x40 vettes, and whatever else can be mustered in terms of more Lf's or your own vettes.
In other words:
My fleet= X60 LFs + X10 Flak + (whatever else i can muster in terms of Lfs/vettes) VS X60 Lfs + X40 vettes.
Would that work??? or would those X60 lfs destoy those X10 Flak before they can trully counter the vettes?
@Seleuceia
It was an example for testing purposes but if you like you can consider a scenario where you ve just taken your dwarf/roid close to your capital, and migrator just appeared with an egg flying to bomb your new planet. Oucome: you will most likely lose all your discs before you kill sb, with lfs you will most likely win that encounter. Reason i mentioned marza is cos people open with it and you ll have it vs rush or a 3-lab push vs sbs.
@Zyzyfer
Yeah you would easily win with a little micro. You can just tank all the damage with frontline gardas hwile Focus firing his LF fleet. I have been mixing up my fleet with 3-4 types of ships recently instead of spamming one type or just adding countes,r and the results have been great so far. Most players dont know how to tackle it in 5s which is what i assume you are talking about here.
Ping me on steam zyzy and i ll explain the LF thing further to you. Hope to see you in 5s this weekend mate.
Disciples are just fine at stopping an Orkie being built...you just need more of them because they are a bit smaller than LF's. Just ignore the egg and lose the asteroid. As long as the Vasari player scraps or loses the Orkie, he loses more in resources than the cost of your asteroid, at which point you hunt down the egg with the Disciples since it won't have much backup due to the cost of the Orkie.
Thats incorrect. If we are talking early game and vasari player times it well there is *no way* you can kill orky with discs in time even if you ignore the egg ( which will likely kill the planet, due to sick bombing damage when orky at around 60%). Turrets wont help either as orky will be built just out of range.
Cykur, yeah JinglyGoo is right. It is difficult (as Advent). At least that has been my experience, on several occasions. Two factories going full tilt, with immediate fleet upgrade weren't enough to kill the Orky. I suppose how far the Vasari colony frigate has to travel, or how long before it starts building makes a difference. But if your roid is only 2 jumps away, then there is "no way". Maybe lag, and connection speeds are a factor. I don't know, but I've always wondered about that.
I'm thinking its better to try kill the Egg, chase it off, maybe pursue, and counter attack his homeworld. Force the Vasari to waste money, ie: a starbase, on a gravity well that you just ignor. Altho, going around it may be an inconvenience.
Edit: Cykur is also right. We've just tested it. And disciples killed it easily. See my comments below (reply #100)
If the Vasari player gets a head start on the Orkie, neither TEC nor Advent can stop him. A superior player may indeed successfully rush you, but I just don't understand why you say TEC can stop the rush and Advent can't. TEC does have some advantages because they usually have LRM pretty quickly and can start rolling them out soon while the Advent must rely on Disciples because they won't have Illuminators or carriers immediately. TEC also has Marza as a first ship a lot. These are advantages to TEC. But LF's and Disciples, pound for pound, provide the same utility vs an Orkie. Disciples actually have a bit more firepower. They build fast. You can have near 20 of them by the time an Orkie starts getting built, with more coming while it builds....Orkies build slow in enemy systems until they get faster build research.If the Vasari player does get a working Orkie because you weren't paying attention, he better have built it on your Homeworld, because you can just abandon your asteroid and go burn down his Homeworld. He won't have enough fleet to counter you anywhere but where the Orkie was built, but if you don't move fast, he will build more Orkies to hem you in....
I'm almost curious to see replays of these games where you claim an Orkie rush couldn't have been stopped. There shouldn't be a problem, unless you waited too long to fleet up and the Orkie is being built while you are in econ mode. Now, dealing with Orkie rushes while being harassed on two different fronts is another story.
Im giving a 5 second reaction time to above scenario. Cykur, this isnt just my opinion, ask any high skill player and you ll get the same answer. Reasons are many but outcome is almost always the same given equal skill.
Also yes as TEC you would stop it a lot easier and if u went marza rush will fail. Prog is just completely useless in this scenario.
Next time i see it happen i ll upload the replay since i lost all of my recent ones due to beta.
What we need is a controlled setup, same map and player distances, but one where the Vasari player rushes a TEC (marza + cobalts) and another where the Vasari player rushes an Advent (Prog + disciples)...
It happens so often in 5s there is really nothing to prove or dissaprove here. Then again SP/AI players and modders wouldnt have seen it first hand as they wont come across it as often.
Well, Cykur and I got a chance to test it. And he was right. It wasn't hard to kill the Orky! Believe me, I was surprised. Like Cykur mentioned above, the building starbase's health started declining at about 20 disciples, or 15 disciples+Progenitor.
We tested on the Close Encounters map. It was the closest approximation of a 5v5 that I could think of. But this was 3 jumps for the colony frigate, before it started building. Not the 2 jumps away, where I've had problems in 5v5s. I think this was the difference.
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