Hey,
Games after games, the tech tree remains the same. Sure, depending of your nation, your research strategy will differ, but still... 'same old things' feeling appears rapidly.
A few game have tried to break the mould by proposing slightly changing tech tree, for each game. For example the costs between 2 items differ. Or bonus A is given in tech X in a game, but in tech Y in another. Or bonus A is slightly less interesting in game X than in game Y, but another one is stronger.
There are wider possibilities though. Branching between techs are not always the same, you plug 'intermediary' techs between them, and sometime you have to research tech A to get tech C or tech B to get tech C.
Last possibility, 2 minor bonus are exclusives, sometime one appears in a game, another time it's the other... But the code algorithms knows how to compensate, so that the gameplay is not crippled. If you need a tech that gives +1 prestige, then sometime it can be given from a warfare tech (say for example it is called 'greater glory' and you need to kill 20 units to trigger it), sometime it is a civilization tech.
Oh and by the way, how about having some techs needing more than plain and dumb research points to unlock? Say I have this military tech 'Greater Glory' that needs x research points... but also a total of 20 units killed on map, to unlock itself?
Be imaginative Kael. For now this research tree functions as all research trees I have seen since I play PC games (so some 25 years ago...)
oh no, not random researches again
Sincerely~ Kongdej
No random.
Yes, research is boring.
But, random research only makes it boring and random.
Nice set of elaborated arguments, must I say.
Sorry.
If you're new here, you probably don't realize that this was talked to death, and then talked about some more, earlier in the beta process. Also, I'm sure that you're a very nice person, but what you proposed just doesn't sound that fun. No offense.
I would like to see research be a little more customized to each faction. I think that would give it some spice.
I am sorry, but as LightofAbraxas said, the random part have been talked to death.I personally am not a fan of random technology, because I like to plan out my gameplan, and design a faction around that gameplan.
But I will listen to all your other ideas!! If you have some good ideas to how research could be made more exciting, without just putting more resources required into the big grinding wheel of getting new stuff, I will happily listen.
I personally like the way research points work, since its dead-simple, I do not have to focus half my game hunting spiders because I need spider eyes to research spears or whatnot.
They added in tech knowledge to trade with other players, this is essentially a random boost to research progress. I agree that it is boring, it would help if they split the trees into 8 pieces and gave each faction their own tech tree that researches 50% faster.
Every faction should have at least 1 unique tech, or barring that, adding more unique stuff throughout the tech tree. Master of Orion had interesting research because you could only choose one of the various perks at a time. This didn't have a huge impact because you could usually get an equivalent item later on at a different decision point, allowing you to leapfrog certain techs.
You may be curious to read these articles for some general ideas on the subject
http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2012/01/29/feature-series-science-and-technology/
http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2012/06/28/science-in-strategy-games-x-com/
I know Mr. Pocus, even without the FrGreetings!
Simple thing to do (but maybe 'orrible to balance) would be give some general buff to each faction for having X points total in a particular tech tree.
So if you're Umber (and why WOULDN'T you be?) your troops would get +1 attack per 4 techs unlocked in Warfare.
Ha, and maybe lose 0.5 attack per tech unlocked in Civilisation.
That sort of thing - only balanced. Probably easier to balance with quite weak effects, like 2% off unit pay, or 1% off spell costs, or 2% more hitpoints, or whatever, per tech researched (or some other value per point in the tech tree).
Then you might nab a quick tech that you don't need much, just to increase your buff, and if there was a negative effect / debuff tree for your faction, you might have to aim for very specific techs, avoiding stuff you don't absolutely need, and actually trying not to get those points in trade in case you end up with accidental techs.
...so when you're one faction, you'd be looking not only how the tree helps your factional traits, but also how to limit the damage / maximize the advantages of specific trees.
To keep it simple, make sure each faction has only one effect, and then one positive tree, and one negative. Eg:
Umber: +2% hit points per tech in Warfare; -1% hit points per tech in Civilisation.
That sorta thing.
I agree that the research system in FE is pretty boring.
What I think makes a great research system in a TBS game is a system that unlocks new mechanics as you progress down the tree.
For example, Civ5. You go down the tech tree and you unlock some iron ore. If you have it, you can build some special units. So now there's a new mechanic that wasn't there at the start of the game - you have to control and manage another resource.
But of course having more mechanics isn't equal to being better. They also have to work together just right. Some games do this great - Alpha Centauri and Endless Space comes to mind, they both have heavy focus on terraforming but it is placed just right in the pacing of the game.
Examples that FE could use:
- High magic research allows for costly conversion of shards
- High warfare research introduces new combat abilities that you can put via traits on designed units
- Siege cities
FE already have some of this "unlock mechanics" stuff, of course.
What would be nice is that you have you normal Tech tree (lets call it the basic tech tree) for each faction. But you also have other tech that show up at random times... These would be unique techs that are not in your normal basic Tech tree. These would include tech taken or stolen from other factions, Ancient Tech found in quest (these quest could also open a whole new branch of tech to research.) Tech from killing certain monsters and so on.
I think that if they handle random tech in this way it would make tech research and the game a lot more fun. You would still have the Basic tech (and when I say basic I mean the normal tech you have now) and also have random techs so up in a more "realistic" way without it messing up your initial game plan.
Diplomacy and quests are pretty weak areas of the game right now. Espionage is non-existant... while you probably could make an interesting system using those tools, right now I think random tech is a bad direction to head.
I do think that faction specific techs is a great idea, not necessarily a faction specific tree but that could work as well. More unit traits in the tech tree would be great, though even what we have isn't very well balanced.
@leowen
I think that having a +2% bonus is a terrible idea. Those types of improvements water down the game and make it so your decisions don't matter. Its better to have something like a tech midway in the tree that gives you +25% defense on forest tiles, and then another at the end of the tree which gives +1 movement through forest tiles.
The point is that consolidating the little bonuses into one big thing makes it more of a strategic choice, in my opinion. If you look at WoW's new talent system, they are scrapping all the +1% stat bonuses that you get every level and such and instead giving your character a new game changing ability every 10 levels or so. I think this is a much better way to design any kind of progression system.
Maybe what's needed is a tech race?
Civ4 doled out special rewards to factions for being the first to get a specific technology, like founding a new religion for example. The effect seems somewhat subtle at first but it is fun. Of course Civ4's relatively wide branching tech tree forced a little more decision making over FE.
@UmbralAngel
Well I wasn't suggesting you remove the actual techs, so it's not watering anything down - it'll be the current system with an extra element added on. And yeah, if there are big super techs spread throughout as you suggest, again, fine - the idea I was suggesting was something on top of the usual tech tree structure. Something that adds a bit of a sting or a bit of a bonus just by playing your faction a certain way - without necessarily restricting you.
So a faction that focuses on the tree that is detrimental to them (eg Umber getting Civ) without getting lots in the tree they like (War) means they'll be at a fair disadvatnage. An Umber who went racing down the Civ tree might end up with 10% reduced hp (as well as all the other techs along the way). An Umber who screwed himself in the usual game by ignoring the Civ tree and getting 10 Warfare techs would have +20% hp. And an Umber who went magic is getting nothing.
If another faction was getting, say, increased spell damage, they might track a path through the detrimental tree really carefully to avoid too many techs, and base a strategy around a lot of the techs in the favoured tree. Then they might show up to battle with a tasty +15% damage bonus.
A long term thing, that you can ignore if you really want, but which provides a bit more depth without needing to completely revamp the current system...
Isnt that what world wonders is? a tech race?
I never understood world wonders too much . Cant say I like the "you have to acheive this first" approach - Always been bothered by it, since it feels like I lose the game when I don't acheive it... I might be strange though.
I would not randomize the entire tree, but I have no problems with a champion unlocking a new tech or a quest unlocking a new tech or a faction have a unique branch, or having some of the branches offering random choices to start a game (i.e. Book of Fire, Book of Frost, Book of Wind, etc.)
Id much rather have the book of fire, book of earth etc. and any "random ish" techs be faction specific. And meaby if you trade enough with another faction you might unlock one of theyre techs, but I have no urge to have to unlock random techs throughout a game, just feels kind of... Wrong... I dunno, but thats because the world is so random itll be like "oh this game I got this random technology with really good bows... but im a race specific to heavy armors this doesnt feel right.
Sorry, I have to chime in. Random is a good thing for me. The whole game is random anywayz. Random map, random monsters, random loot, random tiles, random rivers, random mountains and random starting positions. Why not have some random techs thrown in there.
If I go on a quest and find this fancy item that is not in the tech tree (or not there yet) I can take it to the scientists and they break it apart to figure out how to make more of them. Then I have to research it if I want to use it.
If its a bow, and your heavy armor specific, dont waste your research on it, but at least you get to think you could someday if you needed to.
Say you meet a farmer and do a quest for him. In return you will get the knowledge to research +10% food in your cities.
I like the idea someone earlier had. Make a separate branch for techs you come across throughout your travels that is totally separate from your main techs (or maybe just have them show up in the current trees as an offshoot). Then you have one more added "surprise!" for your questing.
Just my 2¢
I think Bellack proposes the safest way to success... You get your 'standard tech tree', that covers all the angles of the game, so that all features are covered, and then you have a collection of random techs (only some are drawn at the start of each game, but you can perhaps unlock more with epic quest or whatever) that are added to the tree. They can even be 'grafted' at different places (that still make sense) depending of the game.
They can be a slightly better (but costly to research) version of an existing feature, or combine two in one, or are de facto a shortcut to a powerful tech, etc. I'm sure the design team can come up with something interesting yet not unbalancing, after all we know who is in charge...
The current random techs are annoying enough, my biggest problem is if it is going to be both proper and interesting technology you receive at random, some is going to be "overpowered" (in some sense anyways) and will be favoured by players, If I wanted to change my playstyle throughout the game as I was playing it because for some reason I cannot cast fire spells, then the Racial system and sovereign creation system should also be expanded to gain powers throughout the game, instead of starting with all the powers at once...
I would still hate it though, because usually when I sit down and want to have a game, I determine some ideologies about the empire and character I want to be playing, I want to play an empire that is melee centric... Oh crap I only got all the bow technologies, and only found all the bow pieces, no heavy armor, no proper shields, no awesome melee weapons, I am fucked in any sense battling the other empires... So I cannot play the way I enjoy playing the game, and that is why I am trying to advocate less random technology, because technology is having such a major purpose and is such a major power-source in the game.
If I reliably could know how to get the ability to craft all the things I wanted to try out, That would much more help my problem, one game did this.. called "X-com, Enemy Unkown" and you had to gather equipment up and research it before you knew what was going on etc. But you cannot make the "random technology" dropped in a reliable way in a civ like game, without it being either a tiresome grind, reliably - but I only find it near the endgame, or its going to be pointless random technologies that doesn't give anything real.
Random techs like the already included "Book of Frost" are horrible. They serve no purpose but to annoy players because 90% of the time you can't use them due to not having the right champions. Random techs are just a bad idea. The answer is simple. We need more branches in the tech trees so that in different games players go down different research paths. This will allow players to strategize and plan instead of being at the whim of random dice rolls for things they probably can't use anyway. You should not be getting every tech every game. You should have to choose between techs not have behind the scene scripting choose for you. What techs you choose should determine your play style. Plentiful and meaningful choice in the tech tree is the answer not random techs. Beta4 seems like at least a small step in the right direction.
More of a question.
Is it possible to design the tech trees more specific to each faction. For example, they already have the Athican Longsword. Could you design enough tech to supply enough research for an entire faction. Then if the tech trees are different enough, you could "steal" different things from other factions. That way the Magnar could steal the Athican Longsword tech and research how to make them.
I dont know about you city folk but I play on the harder difficulties. My play-style is determined by what I get from the land at the beginning of the game. Just trying to survive is hard, and most the time that's just what I have to do, survive.
Rarely do I ever have a "plan". You take what the land gives you and use it for what its worth, two tiles at a time (lol).
I cant understand why anyone would be against the idea of having random techs. The whole game is random. That sword you found; random. The robe you found; random... etc. Whats wrong with throwing some techs in there?
And my aside:
Please put in the random events for the end game. GalCiv was immensely more challenging when random "events" got thrown into the mix.
PLEASE!
The whole game is not random, its not random how many troops you build in each squadron, its not random how long it takes you to build those same troops, neither is it random how fast you research your technologies, or how fast your city grows in size.Its 2 different opinions that clashes, thanks for at least trying to understand.I don't see the game as random, while yes the loot part of the game is random, and how the landscape looks is random, but if everything in the game is random I might as well just roll a dice, and when I roll a 6 I win...
Ps. Give me an option to turn random events off if you include it, some game's random events have been terribly destructive to the game mechanics, essentially breaking the game.
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