So, I have put much time and energy into playing the game for the sole purpose of examining the balance in Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion. Here are my findings:
Race Balance:
TEC: Overall, I am fairly pleased with how the TEC has emerged into Rebellion. Currently, Both the TEC Rebels have their fare share of advantages and drawbacks. At the end of the day, I believe that the TEC Rebels have a slight edge on the TEC Loyalists. This is because I generally think that the TEC Rebel Titan is more effective at killing corvette spam when used with proper micro. The Loyalists do not give enough advantage for an eco start. I almost wish that instead of easier access to the Novalith cannons, the TEC Loyalists would have cheaper trade ports (750 credits, 100 metal, 125 crystal). I get that the TEC Loyalist is designed to be mainly defensive and a superweapon focus, but from a lore standpoint and a game standpoint this does not make much sense to me at all. If they are the Loyalists, why are they digging in if their race is in rebellion? Shouldn't they be the aggressors trying to reunite their race? Seems backwards to me, maybe I'm crazy.
Bottom Line: TEC Loyalists should be the one subfaction that gets cheaper trade ports for an enhanced eco start. Based on my observation and discussion with other top tier players, TEC Rebels seems to be the more popular of the two subfactions.
Advent: I think Advent is the outright weakest faction overall, and the Advent Loyalist subfaction is simply pathetic. The Advent Loyalist titan is terrible, and they only have 1 unique tier 8 tech, and it is pretty pathetic. Damage boost in culture? Really? That's what you have to look forward to late game as the Advent Loyalists, I mean that's it. You look at other races like the Vasari whose subfactions have unique tier 7 weapons upgrades that give MASSIVE damage boosts, and the Advent Loyalists have only a feeble 5% damage boost in its own culture. Amazingly, the Advent Rebels have 0 unique tier 8 techs, and are still better than the Advent Loyalists, simply on the merit of their titan alone. I just don't understand how the other factions and sub factions could get such cool end tier stuff, and an Advent player has almost nothing new to look forward too.
Bottom Line: Part of what made Advent playable in Diplomacy was it's advantage in the "tier 0" or immediate early game, where the combination of disciples, scouts, and defense vessels was pretty mean. Now, everybody can get corvettes easily and the Advent lost it's early game advantage. It is now the weakest in the early game, mid game, and late game, and the combination of those three means that, yep you guessed it, the weakest over all. I used to like to go random, but rolling advent is such a disadvantage that I don't do it anymore. I would suggest:
Vasari: I seriously just don't know what the developers were thinking when they developed the Vasari for Rebellion. This race badly needed some beta adjustments that it never got because the beta was unplayable with minidumps and desyncs. The Vasari Loyalists and Rebels come in ranking #1 and #2 respectively of all of the subfactions. The Vasari Loyalists are so terribly broken with "Strip to the Core" that most hosts with the slightest desire for balance ban players from choosing Vasari. There is almost nothing good about the ability. It takes away late game strategy by destroying planets logistic slots and gives way too many resources and credits. More on this and how to fix it in the bottom line. The Vasari Rebels are awesome, but due to the sheer brokenness of the Loyalists, they are overshadowed. The Moving Starbases, massive late game phase missiles makes this race a huge competitor.
Bottom Line:The Vasari are overpowered. Not just a little bit, they are broken. I really can't think of many disadvantages besides having to make two weapons labs to research the early game corvettes, but even this is hardly a disadvantage. So many changes need to be made I will break the "what needs to be done" into two sections.
For the Loyalists:
For the Rebels:
Overall:
Ship Balance:
Flak: These ships should never have been nerfed as badly as they were. The reason corvettes seem overpowered is that the best counter, Flak, got nerfed into oblivion. I think the Flak need to be buffed again, and then the corvette spam will meet its match quicker and there won't be massive battles of 200 corvettes vs 200 corvettes.
Corvettes: I don't really like corvettes, but I am getting used to them. I think they are too good at countering too many dfiferent kinds of ships. The only ships that I tihnk they are really weak against is flak, but they counter pretty much every other kind of ship out there. I propose:
Comments, Criticism, Insults are welcome.
[DT] Radioactive.
I think you're a little harsh on the Maw and Accelerated Wave cannons. The Ragnarov or Eradica is probably going to inflict much more damage overall with their AoEs even if the Maw is an instant kill, and you have to wait until level 6 to get it. And Accelerated wave cannons need that big of a bonus to make Enforcers worth building more than assailants or bombers with phase missiles. Also, nothing on Nano Leach?
Otherwise I mostly agree, glad I'm not the only one who though Armor restoration will need to be nerfed a bit once the really OP things get removed.
That's a really good analysis. Sadly, Advent Loyalists are my favourite factionfor some strange reason and I've still been stubbornly playing them online.In a serious competitive game I'd go for the Rebels though.
I'm not at my home comp so I can't check anything but I'd be interested to see a breakdown of the number of unique research items available to all factions at all tiers - notjust tier 8. The Advent may not have much special late game but they havemost of theirs in the mid tiers. Advent Loyalist have one unique tier7 military tech that I always get, which may be the one you referred to, but itdoes more than just buff damage and I thought it doesn't require friendlyculture. I think the Loyalist Titan, as a support titan, needs an innateway to last longer in battle if it isn't going to be a damage dealer itself. Easy wayis to buff health and shields. Another way would be to give it a faster passiveregen tied to an ability or some other healing ability.
You forgot to include the Vas Rebel Titan's Nano-Leech, one of the most brokenly OP abilities in the game.
The only way to change corvettes as you propose, it to give them their owndamage type, which multiple people have suggested already.
A lot of this will depend on how much Vasari get "adjusted" in the next patch.
I believe there used to be Tier 8 tech(s) for the Advent Rebels but they were moved to earlier in the tech tree because they weren't good enough for Tier 8. I also think it's weird that the Advent factions were the the only ones not to receive better weapons or armor tech.
As for the Coronata/Advent Loyalist Titan, I think the main issue with that is that it's a support titan which relies on it's fleet for damage, which is cool idea, but with abilities like Nano Leech, The Maw, Chastic Burst, disruption matrix, everything the Raganov has...within the first minute the Coronata loses the fleet it's supposed to support/it needs for firepower. It needs abilities to keep it's fleet alive for damage/unity mass. Suppression Aura alone isn't cutting it because of the fleet destroying titan abilities. Especially the maw, nothing like watching the fleet you need to use Unity Mass get insta-gibbed in the first 10 seconds of the battle.
TEC Loyalists do need something to compensate the the nerf they got when superweapons were limited. The cheaper trade ports would be nice and fit in well with them I thinks.
I don't mind the nano leech only because a bomber spam makes that ability worthless, and it its after all a titan, it could use some tweaking, sure, but it isn't he most brokenly op ability.
Aww now I'm sad to read this. I just started a 3 star, 8 player FFA map last night (me vs AI) and got Advent Loyalists.
I don't really do the multiplayer thing since I don't have the time for it.. hopefully I don't get screwed over by being AL.
While you were a little harsh on the devs and maybe a little too heavy handed with the nerf hammer, overall I agree with your assessments or at least their train of thought.
A long way to boosting advents could be fixed resource focus by making it passive.
Otherwise I agree with most you said.
Perhaps to sort out strip to the core it should
True given I haven't played a lot of games against really skilled players but I found solution to corvette fights. Perhaps it wouldn't work against likes of you.
Let me see what you think.
I usually start with 20-40 corvettes just so I can repel initial corvette rush then I go for flak until I get 30 or so. 30-40 is sweet spot for flak which enables you to kill corvette spam and structures fairly quick. Until this point most of the time I am cautious but once I get this I am ready to attack. If he tries to bypass me with corvettes I go for his factories and later on force him to retreat or hunt his corvette fleet down. If he starts pumping LF I either go LRMs or some more corvettes if he go flak I use corvettes as harassment tool to kill his resource mines constructors and labs. Of course this is all simultaneous to expanding and grabbing easily taken planets.
This strategy usually worked quite good. Sometimes against skilled as well.
Although I agree that destroying planets is ruining the game, I don't think that devs will be willing to remove VL "flavour" tech, which was actually marketed as one of the features of Rebellion.
Another way of nerfing this ability would be limiting it to deserts and terrans (make up some nerdy lore explanation), which, additionally, turn into normal asteroids instead of dead ones. Way more balanced IMO.
This is simply not true. You lost all your extractors outside of HW to corvette raid. Without feed from Higgy you would be toast. Maybe post that glorious replay please.
I totally agree Advent Loyalists make it not worth going Random at all. The do however have Ancient Retribution which is a good tech. The other damage based techs are Planet for Planet and Assimilated Populace, though I'm not sure how much of a tactical advantage they give.
It's really just the Advent Rebels that got zero damage boosting research. This of course gets overshadowed by their Titan which is in the 1 or 2 easily. Plus their other techs like Cleanse and Renew, Expulsion and Protection of the Unity are pretty oh-hum in terms of actual impact.
Deleted
You delete replays after 3 days? LOL Greg, you're hitting new low.
You didn't even touch any of my planets.
You can't troll a troll. Better keep playing AI. It's easier to dream then.
It was lame, little game. Only reason why you posted it is because you managed to kill crippled Doci.
I wouldn't say bomber spam makes that ability worthless. Nano-leech makes your frigates and HCs worthless in return. He already knows you will have to bomber spam so he can easily prepare flak in response.
I didn't even turn on replay recording after release, but I'm not the one posting hilariously inaccurate information on a game without providing replay. If you are going to say something in public, back it up. If you can't, STFU.
I can make up stories too.
Mecha you really have been outdoing yourself with the trolling since Qu4r left...
These forums need a replay section...so people can post games for download/discussion - would really help for balance, strategy, MP interest, etc.
Greg you are so 2nd rate.
Post that replay or shut up already.
I refer you to your avatar. Stop being a child and I don't care who started it, but end it now. If you have something to say about balance, fine, but don't derail a thread i spent a lot of time on.
For Corvettes, LFs really should be effective against them. As it stands right now, people still never use LFs for anything. Mass Flak does counter Corvettes decently, but they come out at tier 2, while Corvettes can be spammed at tier 1. LFs really need to have something going for them.
I honestly miss the time where Scouts were commonplace. They countered LRFs, but LFs and Flak took out Scouts pretty easily. Good times. I feel that Corvettes were unnecessary to the counter system.
Also to piggy back on the Kostura/Titan phase node issue. As Rebels I have been abusively using star bases as Phase gates paired with Kosturas to move my whole fleet anywhere on the map and back in moments. This level of hit and run mobility creates a tempo no other race can begin to counter. My opinion is either take it away from Vasari or give something to the other races to balance the field. Late game it's like a game of chess where Vasari gets 3 moves to everyone elses 1. Not only do I not know what I would do if someone did it to me and I wasn't Vasari, I've yet to see anyone do anything but crumble when I do it to them. I think not letting SB's travel through Phase nodes would be an excellent way to bring Rebel SB's close to the realm of fair.
Nailed it on Strip to the Core. Way too much juice, not nearly enough squeeze. Also, destroying planets so easily is a terrible dynamic on the map layout and the game in general imo.
Props to the Devs. After all these years of mini dumps, desyncs, and hosting issues that consistantly drove me off the deep end it appears they have finally made the game stable enough to lure me back. I can only hope they continue to try and appeal to the multiplayer community. Kudos sirs.
Oddly enough there is no mention of the Corsev's OPness then again the Corsev is OP since it is such a great counter to the early game corvette rush and the fact it can dominate a large fleet battle with its passive tanking ability as well without any counter-AM capitals in the area.
@OP
Good post, spot on in your analysis. I particularly feel most strongly about this issue:
Thats why I say: all the good ideas went to the tec and vasari, its like synergy is the ONLY thing advent get. The synergy is spread out and so simple, with single enhancements where in all reality there should be multiple enhancements. One trick ponies aren't that fun. And since their synergy just keeps the advent on par with other races(it even got substantially nerfed when capital ships were granted more abilities), they aren't that remarkable. All the good ideas went to the other races, despite the fact that many in the community were PROVIDING GOOD IDEAS BEFORE REBELLION WAS EVEN IN BETA.
Yet I digress. I'll play the game when the balance reaches a modicum of sense.
Good post Star, way to keep the fight alive and well. Time to vent my frustration and perfect my Bardiche skills in slicing heads open at full gallop in mount and blade.
@OP. I generally agree with your sentiment. there are some things i dont agree on, i dont think corvettes need t obe more pricey. However most of this will have to be revisited when 1.03 comes out whenever it comes out (any day now hopefully???)
If i had 2 cents to add, it would be that I still dont see anyone use dominas. And comparing their price with hohos, they are very very very expensive. Id consider reducing their cost a tad. or a bit more than a tad.
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