The balancing in its current state to be frank is crap and everything is broke.
I personally have no clue as how to fix any of this. IDK if any of the other guys on ICO have a clue.
Let's go through the number of problems.
1. Corvettes
2. Vasari Rebels - Starbase Jumping
3. Corsev
4. Rebels vs Loyalists
Those are some of the bigger problems in my book. But theres a hell of a ton more. Anyone willing to state a problem please feel free to post it here. I'll probably merge them into this posts through edits or just have it as an info dump.
No chance to execute this strategy. I was tested this. 180 corvettes cant destroy TEC SB with 3 lvl upgraded HP. All was wiped out.
About Vasari Rebel, they tech able to jump to other planets need rebalance, or give to other fraction new possibility to prevent that action giving new tech for Jump Inhibitor disabling for period of time possibility to jump on planet where Jump Inhibitor was built.
Nothin here till I find the delete button.
If light frigates hard countered corvettes than I think that early game balance would be fine.
As for rebels vs loyalists, only Advent and Vasari loyalists need buffs. For the TEC, the 2 seem equal.
Since the Orkulus was never originally designed to phase jump, it should take far longer to execute a jump than actual ships. Maybe 10x longer to jump into phase space? The upgrade should also probably be higher in the tech tree.
Corsev's damage tanking capacity needs a nerf and the Kol needs adaptive force field to be passive. If the Revelation's guidance ability increased weapon range and RoF and decreased ability cool downs for friendly cap ships, titans and SBs then it could be much more valuable. The Marauder's subversion ability should more effectively cripple production at the targeted enemy planet.
The Vorastra needs to have more survivability and its pulse wave cannons replaced with plasma wave cannons so that they can actually be upgraded. Spawning phase stabilisation nodes should take less time.
The Coronata needs more survivability. Also it's Unity Mass needs double the range (to match the Ragnorev's Snipe) and no cap as to how many friendly ships contribute to the damage output. AM cost and cool down would be changed accordingly. Subjugating Assault should only deplete AM when it converts an enemy ship.
First we need to deal with corvetes. tey need serious rebalancing (nerfing) so they wont be most important unit in early game, only fast unit to harass neutrals/constructors and fight lrms or scare off sova rush. no killing structures , no countering lfs. faster dying to flaks and fighters.
Then we need to move jumping orky much much into late game, about same place as titan, so we can choose.
What we also need is rebalancing of vasari loyalisty titan. This joke unit nees at least one usefull ability as star.
No AOE , no focus fire ability!!!. Every titan has aoe or focus fire from the first level!!!.
Also its devensive ability is also a joke when compared to tec or advent loyalist titan.
Lv6 ability ,looks ok but its lv6.
Also regeneration tech, is level 6 or 7 military tech. Advent have their regeneration tech at lv2
Thank you devs for making 1 vasari farction inferior and other so oped peaople play no VR games. Great job
If you play against the AI, these jumping starbases are hillarious. You don't need ships anymore.
Tried it last night while Diablo 3 was acting up, and it's just silly. The AI pretty consistently underestimates what it takes to deal with an Orkulus when the AI is trying to attack, and it just wiped itself out over and over again on any planet where I left one (with just 2 weapon and 2 hull upgrades, nothing fancy). If you start taking one around with you, you can do it without a fleet at all. The same 4 upgrade Starbase was a match for everything they could throw at it in planetary defense, and once I started sticking the other abilities on it (the frontal deflector for example) then you just send the Starbase in and maybe a couple of capital ships to bombard the planet.
Fleet ships? What are those? Starbases don't even take supply! If I hadn't felt like building the VRT just to see what its abilities do, I could beat multiple hard AIs with only 1 fleet supply upgrade (2 capitals and room for the migrators to build the starbases). Now obviously that's less problematic then it being broken in MP too, but it's pretty damn funny just how absurdly broken it is in SP.
Vasari loyalists are overpowered even though their titan is weaker: basically, you just have to rush the capital ship labs and planetary distruction tech, and you are unstoppable.
Vasari rebels il they pull off their SB jump thing, as said.
It's urgent that culture is powered up, to give advent an edge. Currently, in mp it doesn't work properly: razing a planet disperses culture there allowing for colonization by the conqueror.
Corvettes, given the current state of affairs, are not overpowered anymore, as Vasari eat them easily with their anti-aircraft frigates.
Corvettes still dominate early game for all races. Anti-SC frigates kill them but not without doing significant damage to your fleet before.
Loyalists are not OP just because going fully mobile isn't worth much. Besides a good player will target your capital ships and destroy them and if you went fully mobile you'll be hard pressed to replace them. Their titan is also weak especially if you went fully mobile making it pretty vunerable to attack. Also the ability to eat planets is a tier 6 with 3 pre-requisites. Not like the Rebels at tier 5 with a single tech upgrade and SBs at tier 2.
I still like JJBuck's idea for the Orky: two-stage module that would replace Colony Pods for the rebels. First stage increases movement speed, second allows phase jump. This way, jumping Orkies are going to necessarily be weaker than the current ones which can be fully maxed for assault.
The more games I play against the AI with one of these, the more I hate that ship's taking ability. A couple games ago, I played AL vs TR with a modded (changed port and starboard bank targets to 2, changed it's laser batteries to antilight damage and allowed SC targeting) Radiance. If I hadn't done that, it's assisting fleet would have wiped out the Radiance in short order (I also had a support fleet), but because it gains health from every ally destroyed, it was basically immortal. Not only that, but DT is incredibly powerful when used correctly. Thankfully I was able to shoot down the few DT ships it did throw at me before detonation.
I've been wanting AFF passive for a while now and what you're talking about would make Guidance more useful. As for the Antorak, it got nerfed in Rebellion from 200% at level 3 in Trinity to 173% at level 4 in Rebellion. I feel like the nerfs to Subversion and Detonate Antimatter should be undone.
Agree completely on those three things for the Vorastra.
Your Coronata changes would make it significantly more powerful. My only other thing I'd say is to compress the odds of capture because SA is basically worthless until you get to level 3. Right now, it's 4/6/8/10%, but I feel like it should be changed to 7/8.33/9.67/11%. That would make it decently useful at level one and give it a slight buff at higher levels.
My personal favorite idea for bringing corvettes into line is the idea of changing one of the guns/adding a gun to the Kol, Kortul, and Radiance that would be antilight damage. This is what I was testing above with the mod. Because the laser batteries of the Radiance would likely be the weapon changed (the other two only fire forward) and they only fire at it's sides, by my testing, giving it an additional port and starboard bank target would not be OP.
I'm fine with moving it back a tier. I still think though that it should be an upgrade module.
Vorastra is UP.
Why does everyone play vasari loyalist then?
The only skilled vasari players I've seen, besides, do not build corvettes at all.
On MP? Maybe they just getting into the hype of eating planets.
I hear people have been banning Vasari Rebels from games because they are so god dam OP in the early game. Vasari rebels are the superior one here.
the issues is lots of things can kill a SB from the well edge, like bombers.
By the time you open a 4 upgrade orkulus, I can have a bunch of drones host. It's paper scissor, scout your opponent, if you see a rebel go strait for drone host or station killers combo.
To keep the Orkulus jumping ability lore-wise, for me at least, I think it's be neat if they also required a phase stabilizer in the current gravity well as well as have the phase stabilizer upgrade on the SB. So it can jump out of your gravity wells but is stuck anywhere that couldn't build a phase stabilizer or they could jump into gravity wells adjacent that you had a phase stabilizer in but again only if that SB also had the phase stabilizer upgrade. Also, they really should take a lot longer than normal ships to charge up the jump and be disabled while charging the jump.
I think the Orkulus should burn off modules in order to jump to planets without phase stabilizers. So basically, in order to do a jump, you automatically lose 3 module slots, making it so that you can only build 5 modules after a jump, and any Orkulus with more than 5 modules already built can't jump at all. There could also be an 8th level research that reduce the burn off to 2 and then 1.
If anything it should be pushed back up the tree for a tier 7 or 8 upgrade with pre-requistes. So you can't rush and your emeny can at least build some sort of counter (ie Orgovs).
this for the most part
the jumping star bases research should definitely be pushed into the higher tiers, im not sure what to think of changing it from a research to a module at first i like the idea and thought is how that would implement it but idk
the corona definitely needs more tank and that cap lifted from its units mass more range would not hurt. making subjugating assault not drain AM when it attacks capital ships would be very helpful, i read in some other thread about making the cornata into more of a carrier which i really like the idea of
i play mp often VR is banned almost every game
If SB phase jumping research was tied to a module upgrade, then the best one would be the on-board phase stabiliser as it fits together well. If it had on-board phase stabilisation as a prerequisite than this should also help limit how quickly it can be gained. If the tech became a two stage research I would prefer if lvl 1 only allows jumps into friendly wells but researching 2 points allows jumps into neutral and enemy wells.
Making the Coronata more carrier like would definitely be a good move. Subjugating Assault should not just not drain AM when attacking cap ships, it should not drain AM at all unless the targeted ship is converted. Compressing the conversion chance of subjugating assault also sounds good.
Ok i change my mind , mea culpa i was blind
VR is a litlle problem compared to vl.V Lare really.. really OP. No VR player has any chnce to beat VL player 1v1.
Anyone who force a no VR games i a f....n hippocryte.... or a noob without imagination.
PS i like vasa beeing litlle oped but this is so so wrong. I can already see no vasari games this weekend
Ideas of consuming planets, go mobile or jumping orky are very nice, but it has to be balanced properly.
No player can hold against fully upgraded lv7-9 fleet after 30-40 min of the game
Yes, basically yesterday used VL for the first time (I have always refrained) and I had full armour and missile upgrades, titan and half beam upgrades around minute 35-40. In rush situation VL wins with a certain ship combination which is uncounterable and thrashes corvettes, mid game it is able to carry out surgical attacks resulting in enemy planets being destroyed (for money) and later on it might go carriers/cruisers for added punch, whilst still being able to deploy orkulus in strategic places.
Considered that it was my first time with Vasari, I wiped the floor with one advent player, and held back the remnants plus another two guys (one was owll with VL) alone while my buddies won the game. Not really balanced.
I am not saying now that VLs are not OP, but that you did well with them perhaps means you are just good player. You said there was other guy playing VL on opposite team, right? And he ended up on a losing team, despite that.
Perhaps the VLT should have better effects on blink arrival location:
Effects last for 5/10/15/20 seconds
Faster speed and turning for the titan
AOE:
Disables enemy skills (at least frigates)
Slows enemy speed and turning
I dont know, I was just playing both rebels and loyalists, and I found that both get their uniques at about the same time. The problem when playing as loyalists is defending the SB rush, as the SB gets in the grav-well early, then then the jumping will come at around the time you get your unique. I found I usually had to counter with my own SB on my homeworld, which slows my teching down a ton. what have you guys found?
Well good news guys they have taken note of the Vasari Rebels Starbase OP-ness and it looks like they are doing something to it if you look in the beta 3 known issues thread.
Advent has always been really weak against Vasari.
Vasari destroys the Advent because phase missles don't care for shields which is the Advent's main form of defense.
TEC gives the Vasari trouble since they have heavy armor and hp which phase missles can't penetrate.
I was playing Vasari Loyalist against vicious AIs and had planet eating tech in just under 14 minutes.
After sending egg to the center of galaxy to yet uncontested worlds I was able to build 14 caps + titan in just under 45 minutes mark with manually purchasing caps lvls to lvl 4. After that I am unstoppable no fleet that AI can field can contest my fleet.
Never tried this strategy on multi player but having 14 lvl4 caps + titan in 45 minutes ...... Devs might want to look into that as well.
PS if I had 2 Capital ship factories I might shave 10 minutes out of final time when I had max cap ships and titan.
I agree completely with greg, in 45minutes I had maxxed out my capital ships and 75% of my total fleet supply, although this changes based on the available planets. This could be a problem as it will greatly influence how VL perform on different maps, in turn making them difficult to balance on the bigger, more planet heavy maps. I think the top payout needs to be reduced (by a fair bit, say to 12500 for a terran, and move the other planet types down to around 7500), and the bottom payout increased (by a small amount, perhaps to 4000) in order to keep VL more consistent across maps.
What about if you didn't have to always recolonize the planet after destruction too? This is simply annoying, I also think that the capital and miners should stay intact if the world is strip mined. I dont understand why I always have to colonize the planet twice in order to reconstruct the asteroid miners which really didnt have to be exploded. At the moment the loss of the capital really hurts, as it is another 2G to replace. This is unless i have the mechanics wrong with the fleet being the capital of course.
What do people think?
EDIT: OR we could even have the strip mine provide another steady income, say 3 to 4 times what the planet would usually produce (if fully upgraded) until the payout is reached. This could be justified because the resources obtained have to be processed first. This would reduce the massive OPness, and strip to the core could be received earlier in the tech tree (i dislike always being SB rushed first).
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