[DISCLAIMER: all suggested modifications to abilities and stats are meant as a proof of concept- the numbers aren't final and are only included to give a rough estimate of the changes- please focus any feedback on the ideas behind the changes rather then only on whether the current numbers are balanced(though numbers feedback is also useful)]
General Analysis of the Role of Battleships
It's well known that 2 of the games three battleships are rather sub-par. Battleships as a whole have been designed to be "pure-combat" ships with less in the way of utility/late game fleet support then most other capitalships, but contribute more in the way of firepower then, for example a colony or support capitalship.
This really should mean the battleships should excel in the early game, when the added firepower of one combat-focus ship to a small fleet makes a larger difference to your total fleet potency then fleet-support skills which scale better into the late game when most of a fleet's firepower comes from it's large complement of frigates.
The problem is of course that it's hard to justify battleships as a means of boltering early firepower when frankly for the advent & TEC carriers posses superior firepower at a greater range with more flexibility(fighters for anti-light damage, bombers for anti-module). I will discuss the firepower of battleships relative to carriers more thoroughly in the next section.
Firepower of Battleships and Carriers Contrasted
The core of this problem lies in the fact that carriers start with 3 extra squads of strikecraft, and by level 10 have 6 more squads then a battleship. By contrast the radiance's weapons exceed the DPS of the weapons of the Halcyon by about 20 DPS at level 1, and somethign around 38-40 extra damage at level 10.
3/6 squads of fighters have roughly 12*3/12*6=36/72 DPS(=48/96 damage against light armor, 18/26 against most other armor types) 3/6 squads of bombers have about 17*3/17*16=51/102 DPS(which is 33/66 DPS against capitalships, 51/102 DPS against heavy cruisers, & 25/50 against most other ships).
There's something to be said about the battleship damage being dependable whereas strikecraft squads can be damaged and destroyed to be sure. But IMO that is more then made up for by the fact that strikecraft have an enormous range advantage and can focus fire(whereas the battleships divide their DPS between banks targeting separate enemies).
The point is even before abilities come into play carriers have a firepower advantage on the battleship- this is not the only issue of course(radiance & Kol have ship specific issues as well unrelated to their battleship status).
Consequently I believe the less powerful battleships could be remedied by improving their firepower. I think the best way to do so is by buffing seperate abilities to improve firepower in ways focused on different types of enemies- that way the player can specialize the firepower of their battleship to meet the situation much as a carrier can be loaded with fighters or bombers to meet the situation(though since skills learned are permanent and can't be swapped like strikecraft the skills shouldn't be too specifically focused).
So What Makes a Battleship "Work"?:
So far the two battleships which are actually viable are the kortul and the discord(we'll see when the vasari are in whether their new battleship is any good). I'll focus mostly upon the Kortul as it fills a more traditional battleship role then the discord(which is as much a support debuff boat as a battleship despite the name).
So what traits do these ships have that the radiance & Kol lack? Well both despite being strong early game combatants with good offensive firepower abilities also have some degree of late game utility(jam weapons & AM draining attacks for kortul, Armor reduction & Lethargy for the Discord)- this is primarily an area which the Kol falls short(radiance has DA).
That said, the biggest area the Kortul excels where the other battleships fail is in it's high sustained firepower and durability via Power Surge. Power Surge allows the Kortul to match if not exceed the firepower of a carrier, and become fairly durable it's self making it a very potent addition to early game fleets which are small enough that capital-ship firepower is a large portion of total fleet firepower.
Honestly I think the biggest problem with the radiance and Kol is just that- they can't compete with carriers in terms of early game firepower. Specifically the radiance lacks the tools(only one basic ability deals damage and the damage isn't really the focus of that ability) and the Kol has the tools(Gauss Railgun can put out some serious damage if spammed) but lacks the AM to keep up with it's ability's AM demands. That said, being that the biggest flaw in radiance specifically has always been early firepower(even in diplomacy) I can't understand why DA dmg/sec was heavily nerfed in rebellion. Seriously it went from 16.67/26.67/33.33 DPS in diplomacy to 12/14.9/17.8/20.7 DPS in rebellion.
The last part of the equation is durability- the Kol has this in spades(it mostly lacks in the previous areas). The radiance however doesn't. EAA is definitely the world of the 4 battleship "survival mechanism" even considering it is passive(this is in large part due to the fact that advent fleet synergy being what it is, by the time a capitalship is taking hull damage it's already in dire straights). That said, personally I think any deficits in survivability are far less important then the lack of early game firepower.
Ship Specific Discussions:
The Kol:
The Kol's biggest problem is and always has been that it has 3 active abilities, two of which have short cooldowns and are primarily meant to just deal damage(which means to really boost Kol's sustained damage output they need to be spammed). The Kol's AM simply can't keep up. Flak burst is particularly an AM hog.
Another more specific issue is that Flak Burst is unreliable unlike other Anti-SC ablities doesn't "buy time". If flak burst doesn't actually kill any squads(as it often won't in it's first shot) your ships are going to take the full brunt of the bomber attack even after using flak burst(which has a very high AM bost btw). Moreover the effectiveness of Flak burst varies drastically based o who your opponent is- Vasari bombers have roughly twice the hull of advent bombers. this makes the ability difficult to balance as balancing it against the advent means leaving it useless against the vasari and balancing it against the vasari will make it too hard of a counter to advent SC. Flak burst needs something new- something that levels it's effect against all race's strikecraft so that it's effect can be balanced accounting for all races.
Because of these first two issues the first change I would propose is to make Flak Burst far stronger, but on a much longer cooldown(less of an AM burden & strong enough that the first casting has a quantifiable effect on the coming bomber swarm).
As many have suggested over the years, making Adaptive Forceshield Passive would help ease Kol's AM problems a bit(heck with it's duration it pretty much has 100% uptime already).
Gauss railgun I don't think needs any new effects, but could use a small AM cost reduction- It's post shield DPS is actually pretty comparable to that of the Jarrasul's Nano-dissembler(whic his IMO a good example of a sustained damage ability), but the AM cost per second of spamming Gauss railgun every 8 seconds is massively larger then keeping nano-disassembler running. If they AM costs were similar the two might be pretty comparable(-50% speed>-3/4/5/6 armor but Nanon dissaembler may be maintained on up to 3 targets).
SO I think my proposed changes would be something along the lines of:
Gauss Railgun: reduce AM costs by 5 or 10 at all ranks
[comments: nothing fancy here, just a modest AM cost reduction ]
Flak Burst: Increase cooldown to 25 seconds. Instead of dealing damage instantly destroys the 2/4/6/10 Nearest squads of enemy strikecraft and deals damage to each other strikecraft in the area equal to 30/40/50/60% of it's maximum hull points(damage still reduced by armor).
[comments: After a great deal of thinking the only real way to make Flak burst equally useful against all types of strikecraft I really felt went with the theme of the ability was damage based on target health. This also prevents later game strikecraft with hull upgrade research from becoming super resistant to flak burst. The 2/4/6/10 squads instantly destroyed means flak burst WILL always reduce the impact of the approaching bomber swarm it is used to counter. Moreover I think it's fair as even at max rank it essentially destroys a squad every 3 seconds on average- which isn't all that far off the rate carrier capitalships produce strikecraft for no AM. Also for those leary of '% of max hull' damage, vasari bombers top out at what? 175*ish* health? the ability would in that case cap out at 105 damage against the beefiest strikecraft(so about 1.5x current effect, less against frailer ships)]
Adaptive Forceshield(passive): Reduces all damage dealt to the Kol by 10/15/20/25% and grants it 14/21/28/35% phase missile block.
[comments: a little bit weaker then the current effect, but up 100% of the time with no AM cost. it's WAY better then the radiance's EAA at the very least. ]
Altenative Adaptive Forceshield(passive): Increases shield mitigation by 4/6/8/10% and 4/21/28/35%
[comments: This one would in general be slightly stronger then the first damage against damage that doesn't bypass shield mitigation, but would be a bit vulnerable to effects that do(with the phase missile block this mainly means it would be weaker to abilities that bypass shields). That said this one also has the advantage of being very simple. ]
Base Stats: Increase the damage of the kol's autocannons a bit- nothing huge, maybe a 10-15% boost
[comments: The greater spammability of Gauss should give the kol some anti-capital ship DPS, this change would give it a bit more anti-frigate firepower- they would also make the splash damage from it's ult a bit stronger]
These changes would IMO fix the Kol's problems. It's AM supplies would actually be able to keep up with it's ability use, It would have more sustained firepower in general(possibly rivaling that of a carrier), and to top it all off it would actually have a strong and more importantly reliable anti-SC ability(actually probably the strongest early-mid game due the the relatively smaller numbers of strikecraft present)
The Radiance:
The Radiance is a bit more complicated. It doesn't even really have the tools at present to compete with a carrier in offense. It's clearly meant to be a pseudo-tank w/ animosity/EAA, but frankly no capitalship can really tank late game so past the early game the Radiance can't really perform this purpose.
That said Radiance can already be useful late game just via DA & cleansing brilliance, so I will focus primarily on buffing the radiance's early game.
First off, boost DA damage. There was no reason this should have been nerfed in rebellion(Radiance was already UP because of lack of earlygame firepower in diplomacy, so why nerf the damage of it's highest priority skill to level up?). That said I would primarily like to buff the lower ranks of it's damage output to target the early game, so perhaps have the dmg/sec be constant at all ranks(after all the total damage per cast already scales up with rank via the duration increasing and getting closer to the cooldown).
I know many people's reaction may be "DA is already great, why buff it?" simple, DA is good enough that it will generally be skilled first meaning any buffs to other skills past rank1-2 don't really see play in the early game...you can only really buff the early game by buffing abilities people actually have points in early game. Buffing DA is practical for this reason(and frankly it's mostly just rolling back an unnecessary nerf to an already UP ship)
Honestly buffing DA's damage could probably give the radiance plenty of anti-capital ship firepower, so next I will focus upon giving it some anti-frigate firepower. The best candidate for this feels like animosity as that ability is already tailored toward wading into a mass of frigates. So perhaps add a secondary effect that improves Radiance's ability to engage multiple enemies.
Granting a bit of extra survivability to EAA may be nice as well(for the taunting battleship it's a bit odd that radiance is by far the squishiest battleship), but is less important then other changes.
Anyway without more ado my propositions would be:
Detonate Antimatter: increase dmg/sec to 25 at all ranks.
[comments: total damage per 20 seconds in trinity: 200/400/600 With my changes total damage per 20 seconds would be: 300/390/480/570 . Still slightly lower at rank 4 then trinity rank 3, but stronger at lower ranks(not to mention it's still better overall at rank 4 as it has an extra 3 seconds of duration compared to trinity rank 3). I think this would be a reasonable way to give the Radiance much needed single target firepower(and frankly being that the damage didn't overpower radiance in trinity this should be fine as well). ]
Animosity: additionally for the duration of animosity Radiance's weapons banks may attack one additional enemy and have their rate of fire increased by -15/0/15/30%
[comments: I know this sounds big: consider the following though: Kortul's 'Power Surge' essentially improves weapons damage output by 25/50/75% and is up 67/71/75% of the time(I don't know the rebellion values). Meaning it cast every cooldown it is roughly a 16.3/35.5/56.2%. By contrast Animosity is up at most 20/35=about 57.1% of the time. With my proposition animosity would constitute a 33.5/57.1/80.7/104.2% increase in weapons damage, but divided among twice as many targets(and dependant on having that many targets to reach it's full potential). The slightly higher damage boost is compensated by the reduced focusfire. As for the other effects: considering Power surge has a better uptime compared to it's cooldown I think it's shield regen is about as useful as animosity's default effect. Also this would make animosity into a great visual lightshow in large battles . Also I realize the rank 1 reduces weapon fire rate seems weird. I initially had it at +0/10/20/30%, but wasn't satisfied with the distribution of bonuses as compared with 'Power Surge']
Base Stats: Shift some of Radiance's base shield points and shield points per level into hull and hull per level so that a larger percentage of it's health is in the form of hull.
[comments: Making more of radiance's health come from hull instead of shields relative to the other advent capitalships would be an easy way to buff EAA without adding anything more complicated to that ability. Moreover Advent capitalships are renowned for squishyness due to their low hull points- having their capitalship that is intended to serve as a pseudo tank eb the only exception to this rule would make the ship very unique in the Advent arsenal(possibly a good choice for combating vasari Evacuators/phase missiles? ]
Conclusion:
Well a discussion of battleships, what makes a battleship "good" and what can be done for the ships of this class which are subpar has been bouncing around in my head for the last few weeks. Sorry if it is a bit of a rant, I tried to structure my thoughts as best I could at a moments notice(though I'll likely be editing this post over the course of the night).
Anyway any discussion on battleships, the general problems with the radiance/Kol, feedback to my proposed changes, or ideas of your own are welcome. Honestly I think the first step towards balancing the underpowered battleships is figuring out exactly what role battleships as an archtype should play in game strategy. I'm sure there's some controversy on the specifics of these issues, so let's hear some opinions!
I'd really rather not do that though. I'm fine with the Halcyon being an all-in-one, it's just the Radiance needs something to compensate. Three of the same class never function as exactly the same thing.
Battleship:Kol: anti-sc, anti-structure tankRadiance: anti-capital "tank"Kortul: omni-counter
Carrier:Sova: siege carrierHalcyon: anti-sc, support carrierSkirantra: support carrier
Support:Dunov: heal, disable supportRapture: disrupt supportAntorak: guerilla support
Colony:Akkan: offensive supporting colonizerProgenitor: defensive supporting colonizerJarassul: assassin colonizer
Siege:Marza: AoE planet bomberRevelation: support bomberVulkoras: anti-structure planet bomber
Battleship2:Corsev: AoE, DoT tankDiscord: debuff supportRankulas: guerilla construction
See what I mean? Sure, they fill vaguely the same role, but that's about it. They don't have all the same sub-roles. I think it's fine to expand the Radiance to have more fleet synergy without giving it TKP.
Hrm. Maybe expand animosity so it's targetted at an enemy + radius, and the ship specifically targetted deals X% less damage to the Radiance? Although that'd heavily unbalance early Cap + fleet vs Cap + fleet fights. Maybe change Detonate Antimatter to an active ability which prevents the ship from taking more than X damage per second, but cuts own DPS by Y?
That way your Radiance can taunt a group of ships, turn the tank buff on, and independent of how many ships you taunted, take a certain amount of time to kill. Enough to buy you lots of free kills, at least.
Lore wise I would be curious how you would explain this, otherwise I find this ^ interesting and maebe worth exploring?
This seems like a very simple and elegant change.
More specifically, what about Leaving the forward batteries as they are(capitalship damage), but change the side laser/autocannon batteries of the Radiance & Kol to anti-light damage type and allow them to target strikecraft as well as frigates.
The idea being the frontal weapons are used for shooting focus targets whereas the side turrets protect the fleet from bombers & corvettes.
Honestly being how strong corvettes and bombers are in general this could easily be a one step method of instantly making the Kol/Radiance attractive choices despite their shortcomings. The only problem is that it's a bit of a ducktape fix as it leaves the weak abilities unaddressed(and may well make these ships strong enough that buffing the abilities would be a bad idea).
That said I think it's a very simple and elegant method to make these ships immediately fill a useful strategic niche.
That's kind of what I'm thinking.. It is duct tape-ish, but it might still hold together. My concern is that if used to target strike craft, they would lose a lot of their DPS that would otherwise get devoted to larger targets. It's an odd idea and I still think that Animosity could be modified, but I think it would instantly get them a recognizable role in the MP scene which has apparently become a corvette spamfest. Heck, the other day, I got rushed by an AI on two fronts simultaneously, one with 20 LF and 20 scouts (yes, I got scout rushed by an AI; since when does it know how to do that?!) and on the other 20 LF and 20 Corvettes which was significantly harder to get rid of than expected. I can only imagine at this point what ICO must be like.
That said, I still think the Radiance could use a late-game buff. Changing the two of them to be able to take down their counters would significantly increase their durability, allow them to be used to counter carrier rushes, and would allow them to more easily take down early-game enemy fleets that are filled with corvettes, SC, or LRF. Late-game, their firepower will still be "useful," but their primary purpose at that point will necessarily have to shift to abilities which may still need to be addressed.
As I have said before, OP strategies are only dominant so long as there is no viable counter available to all parties. The mere existence of a simply deployed counter to a given type of strategy will instantly nullify that strategy except for rare cases when people do it to be creative and surprise their opponents. Right now, the Corsev is considered OP by the MP community because of Demolitions Team being an uncapped AoE available at level 1 and AoE's rip holes in corvette spam in addition to the fact that it can heal from the destroyed frigate.
Allowing the Kol the capacity to engage other capitals as it currently does while still allowing it to counter Corvettes and doing the same sort of thing to the Radiance would go a long way IMO towards cutting down on the spam of these units. When the Vasari are (presumably) released this week, my guess is that we'll have to take a look at the Rankulas as well as in a lot of ways, I'm afraid it'll become the Vasari's Kol/Radiance.
Even if we do this however, there will be the constantly looming problem of later in the game. At this point, I'm inclined to think that the Kol might actually be set, though I can't believe I'm actually saying this. The point is though the ability for a capital to take down SC and corvettes should go a long way towards helping it's fleet and would make the Kol the best AA unit in the game.
As for the Radiance, DAM will always be good versus capitals, titans, and support cruisers, but there will likely be better alternatives under most circumstances which is my primary concern to other functions. Clearly, TKP will remain better than the Radiance's AA guns. Abilities should trump weapons and that's fine with me. The problem arises however when you consider that all it's jobs can be sufficiently fulfilled by something else. Cleansing Brilliance has been more-or-less useless since the Malice nerf. Combine that with the comparison of it to something like Unity Mass or Chastic Burst. There is no comparison. Those abilities are significantly better than CB. Take EAA+Animosity. Redistribution of damage has been and will continue to be the domain of the Guardian.
Honestly, I think that Guidance and Animosity need to be changed more than any of the other abilities in the game. Both fall on relatively unused ships and don't get a whole lot of investment. DAM is easily the best ability on the Radiance, disabling abilities, draining AM, and doing damage. It really is a good ability. The problem is, one ability does not make an entire capital worth it.
Obviously, I don't think we should go into discussion of Guidance here, but I would like to see some sort of synergy that could go on with the ability. Idk.. I'd love to give the Radiance a synergy again and restore the Advent Holy Trinity, but idk how. I mean, you can always go with simple things like Animosity can be cast to another target, cause it to reduce damage taken by the Radiance, increase the Radiance's damage, etc, but the problem remains that you can't actually synergize those things with anything aside from Vengeance and that ability is fundamentally problematic because of incredibly high levels of mitigation and having to pass through shields twice.
Idk.. Maybe I'm the only one that's so bent on getting the Radiance to synergize, maybe not, but I guess here's an idea that would synergize with Ruthlessness, Malice, and Vengeance. Maybe it's stupid, maybe it's over-complicated, maybe it would work.. Idk.. I'm just trying to come up with something that might work. Well, here it is...
Modify Ruthlessness to instill a buff to allied capital ships called "BuffRuthlessnessAlly." Upon casting Animosity, the Radiance will as now grab nearby enemies and force them to target it. If it has BuffRuthlessnessAlly, the Radiance will in addition to forcing a number of ships to attack it, bank targets of the Radiance for all guns increases by 1/2/3/4 (or whatever would be balanced; maybe 0/1/2/3 would be better, idk). This would turn the Radiance into a lightshow in addition to giving purpose to Ruthlessness aside from stopping non-combat hull regen which isn't exactly applicable to the Advent anyways. Next, because the Radiance would be spewing out damage to more targets while having more shoot at it, you could hit it with Vengeance to get some return on the disadvantage of using Animosity. Last, Because you are now dealing moderate amounts of damage to a large amount of ships, cast Malice. True, it has a target cap, but used in a small area around a Radiance should work decently well and will hopefull get some of the Radiance's attackers afflicted by Vengeance to spread that damage as well.
Like I said, maybe it's overly complex or dumb, but I'd just really love the ship to be useful in an Advent fleet for something other than interrupts.
First of all, Volt_Cruelerz, I had to say, your last post is way toooooo long... I'm afraid few has the enough patience to read it.
So I just try to summarize your post here:
But I'm hesitate about point 1. That will encourage players to "spam" Kol / Radiance in early game instead.
Last night, I made a mod of this and tried seeing how quickly I could expand with the Kol with the new weapons. The answer was astoundingly fast, particularly on roids. Also, it should be noted that in a kiting game around a star, the Kol never died against full carrier bombers. It was able to kill them fast enough that it took minimal damage and would level up periodically from the kills, resulting in higher rank and once it hit level three where it gets it's own squadron, it would more or less stop taking damage all together. If anything, it was too good.
Then I tried the Kiting scenario with the Radiance. It was unable to kill any of the bombers before they reached it (the Kol has autocannon in each direction whereas the Radiance only has lasers on it's port and starboard banks). As a result, they quickly destroyed the Radiance, though for some reason, this process could be delayed if the Radiance was not stationary and kept chasing the carrier around the gravity well. I have no idea why that was, but the rate of damage it would take while chasing was significantly less (about half as much) as when it was stationary.
Also, while the Kol was able to level up repeatedly from SC kills while chasing, the Radiance only killed 4-5 SC before dying.
As a result, if this were done, the Kol's autocannon batteries would need to be nerfed and the Radiance's laser batteries would need buffs.
Yeah I was kind of rambling. Sorry about that.
Animosity was the one I was talking about that needed a synergy. Ruthlessness was another generally useless ability that came to mind and because they have the same premise, I figured a synergy between them could be useful for both of them. It also prevents usage of the combo early on as Ruthlessness is a tier 7 tech because it would demolish early-game fleets.
Or since Rebellion raised the weapon limit to 5, the Kol and Radiance could get a 4th, anti-light weapon that's unlocked at 3 or 4 military labs so early Kol and Radiance won't make carriers useless but they'll be essential anti-bomber and anti-LRF units later on. Since the Radiance lacks anti-SC abilities it should get a better 4th weapon than the Kol.
The idea was to counter early corvette spam. What you're talking about would make them better later on.
Ah, I forgot the initial point of the weaponry, focusing on the ever-present bomber spam instead.
Yes, if we're talking about corvette spam, they really should just be given a 4th weapon from the start that fires in the three main arcs. That won't diminish their anti-fleet firepower in the same way changing the third weapon would and it will significantly boost them against LRF and corvettes. Of course, this really would be a radical change for battleships, so I doubt it will get implemented. Of course, if the point is countering corvette spam, the Vasari should probably get a good counter as well since their 'vettes don't come until 2 labs. Anti-light pulse guns on the Kortul would work. Giving battleships an all-around anti-fleet role would make them a lot more useful.
@Volt_Cruelerz:
That weirdness with the radiance movement and survivability compared to the Kol could be because of the differences in cooldown timers. The Kol autocannon does 153 damage per shot, whereas the Radiance laser does 159... being anti-light means they do about 300 per shot each; pretty even. And sounds a bit over powered... it would 2 shot them (even accounting for armor and reasonable mitigation levels).
But the Kol shoots every 4.5 seconds, whereas the Radiance shoots every 6 seconds. messing with the damage would not fix the problem, i think... it would be the timing or the range (Radiance 4900, Kol 5000) I think because if the corvette or strikecraft leaves the range, it switches targets, losing some of damage done to hull repair.
I'm curious though... with the Kol, you had an easy time expanding? what about early enemy fleets? that's where I'd expect to see vettes and strikecraft. Remember, this might be more of a rush strat than anything; though that is an interesting observation...
The situation wasn't something that I could accurately report how it did against a normal fleet.
Sorry for posting on an old thread but I would like to add something about the Kol's adaptive forcefield ability. I only own Trinity so I don't know if any of these has been applied to Rebellion.
I think of the AF as a passive ability that boosts the Kol's shield effectiveness just like that ability on the Radiance which boosts armor. With this in mind I suggest the following:
Make the AF a passive ability.
No damage reduction.
Phase missile negation: 10%->20%->30%->40% (It basically counters the Vasari upgrades for the Phase missiles)
Increase shield mitigation: 2%->4%->6%->8% (The Advent get up to 4% with the military techs only. Keep in mind that the TEC shields have way less shield points and this ability applies only to the ship itself)
What do you think?
Most people would be fine with Adaptive Forcefield made passive.
That said the KOL is a great mid-late game capitalship with Rebellion. It does well with bomber spam and holds up good against titans with anti-frigate AOE.
It hasn't, but I will say making AF passive is done by a lot of mods. I know my Enhanced 4X mod, and perhaps project equilibrium and Rebalanced Races do that if you can find download links for them for Diplomacy.
I really like your idea, but I think maybe instead of buffing animosity for the Radiance via increased fire rates, maybe we could have it increase its damage resistance or implement some element of regeneration.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account