So i've played sins awhile ever since the original. And I know, as much as everyone else, that the advent super weapon sucks..... majorly. A proposed solution is that when it shoots at a planet each ship in the gravity well has a 5- 10% chance of being converted. The original effect of sending culture would stay the same, but instead of just culture spreading you could gain a few ships too. I think it would help a little to make the advent actually use their super. Any feed back on the idea would be great thanks
Could be interesting. If this was diplomacy I would definitely say do it. However, the new advent culture buffs are just enough to make be hesitate to rubber stamp it. Thanks to the phase missile blocking in culture we really need to see how the Advent in culture deal with the Vasari now, I wouldn't be surprised if firing a deliverance engine becomes required before attacking a Vasari world late game.
I still rather like the idea people had a few week ago to have deliverance engine additionally disable enemy culture-buildings in the targeted well for awhile(3-4 minutes would work).
It would enhance the deliverance engine's ability to accomplish it's existing purpose(enhance culture-attacks and ensure the advent fleet can get it's in-culture benefits for a key battle) without adding any whole new purposes(such as widescale conversions).
I find the greatest weakness of the deliverance engine is not the structure itself, but the gameplay constants that limit how fast culture can spread and how fast allegiance can change...
Tweak those numbers and let the deliverance engine buff last longer, and your enemies will start losing planets to culture as fast they would to to novalith bombardment...
The problem is is that it doesnt shoot enough culture. I as playing advent loyalist one time, and I repossed a world in the middle of enemy territory. I quickly deystroyed all the strucures in the well, and built 3 culture centers. It was a 5v5 game and I was getting bombarded by deliverence engines yet my culture was still over powering them. Granted i had like 8 caps there and a titan. But the point is if they were shooting a planet that was surrounded by my own planets my culture would just dominate the culture they shot.
This idea works too, but the whole advent idea is to convert. My version of this idea would be if some how you are able to get the enemy culture on a planet to 0 it will become your planet and all structure in the grav well (minus starbases) become yours.
Like the OPs suggestion.
As it stands, people build maybe one Advent superweapon, two if they are hardcore. No need for more. It's like bringing spitballs to a fight when your enemies bring a skeleton key to the backdoor of your house and the other brings a pound of C4.
All the deliverance engine needs to do is make it have an unstoppable culture spread. The duration is short, and this would allow the culture buffs to apply in the system. Only problem is I can see deliverance engine spam being an unstoppable, but slow force.
Pretty much what others have said. The problem with it is that every effect except the fleet damage buff is entirely negated when the planet you shoot at can overwhelm the DE's culture generation, which really isn't that hard to do. It doesn't matter how long it lasts if it's not doing anything.
All it has to do is disable local culture generation and thus always give the firing Advent fleet its own in-culture bonuses and it's suddenly fixed.
I've advocated something similar in a different thread except with a hard unit limit to the conversion rather than a % chance. I feel as though all of the supers could use some love so that they are TRULY super and then limit their deployment #s. Also I have advocated for their effects to be upgradeable. Here is my proposal from a different thread, let me know what you think.
Novalith Cannon
Kostura Cannon
Deliverance Engine
I don't think the ships converted should have a set number it should be a percent. 10% chance for each ship. that way you could actually possibly do some serious damage.
Meh, I'd rather have the enemy more reliably lose the planet i nthe first place then have a hail-mary effect of "if it does convert you get to keep it"
More to the point even if you did instantly gain the planet, if you don't yet have a military presence in the system in question they enemy will likely just bombard it back dead before you show up- and if you already did have a presence you could just colonize the old fashioned way.
Instantly gaining a planet that loses it's allegiance sounds great on paper, but realistically the fact that the former owner of the planet likely still has a military/fortification presence at the planet in question the benefit is rather dubious.
I was saying when you take over the planet you get all the structure in the gravity well, including turrets repair structures the works, except a starbase. That way the defense strucures there (if any) could possibly hold out till you get a fleet there to defend.
I say make it so you get the fleet too!
No. Not even the Kostura's original form was that powerful.
lol
The dubiousness of the benefit was only half my argument- the other half is that all the benfits on tipping the planet in the world don't matter if you can't tip the planet.
At present due to gameplay constants and the nature of how deliverance engine works the deliverance engine simply isn't all that likely to actually cause a planet to revolt regardless.
And even if you did cause a revolt and instantly gain the planet: A few stolen turrets and repair bays aren't going to stop the enemy from using siege frigates/capital ships to just bombard your newly colonized planet dead(doesn't take very long for an un-upgraded planet even if it didn't start from 1 HP like most colonizations do). And your stolen static defenses are next in lien for demolition.
the enemy can see the revolt coming a mile away(allegiance loss is slow) and have a fleet stationed in the gravity well- and again if you send a fleet to prevent them from destroyign everything you take then you could have colonized the old fashioned way without this buff.
In essence against an opponent smart enough to have a fleet at a planet who's allegiance is dropping the entire benefit of this change would basically be "destroys static defense IF you can cause the planet to revolt"
And that's a very big IF, as there are abundant very efficient counters to allegiance loss.
That said even just destroying fortifications would likely be OP when it actually worked- in general an effect which is utterly unreliable but OP when it happens is generally very bad for game balance. What is needed is reliability not an even more powerful but unreliable all-or-nothing effect.
So again I'd much rather have more reliable allegiance loss then a hail-mary added benefit for the occasional time Deliverance engine actually does tip a planet. At present delivery engine's big problem is lack of dependability not the potency of the potential effect(the opponent losing the planet alone is already a large effect). it make no sense to resolve this issue by further buffing the potential effect.
What you describe is a very cool idea, but it simply isn't giving the deliverance engine what it really needs: more reliability.
Deliverance engine should by no means be a guaranteed planet flip, but it should IMO at least be reliable at
A). reducing the target planet's allegiance a bit(to cause some economic damage).
B ). Ensuring the Advent has enough culture in the targeted region to activate their in-culture combat benefits
@ the OP! This is a very good idea, imo.
The TEC having a corsev could reacquire these captured ships to limit their attrition losses, while the vasari would have a difficult time dealing with this(unless they have ship acquisition abilities as well).
good stuff bilun, being able to reduce planetary loyalty by 5% per hit would be interesting
this would ensure that low loyalty worlds hit by 4 deliverance engines would have a strong possibility of being culturalized at a range to support the advent fleet.
In addition to the damage buff, this makes this weapon feel "super" when compared to the others.
As an addition to your idea,
The deliverance engine should also improve effected friendly planets loyalty by 5%, so the advent could use it to improve their own economy and production ensuring that the civic based advent superweapon has a different flavor of use when compared to the other military oriented superweapons of the other two races.
With 4 engines running all the time the advent could possibly increase their overall economy by about 5%, and maintain very strong loyalty to boot.
It needs something more then just ensuring the advent get their combat bonus and a little slap on the wrist for a person's economy. the Kostura cannon disables all structures in the grav well and creates a phase gate, and the nova does huge eco damage and planet damage. it needs to be a SUPER weapon not a meeeeehhhhhh cannon.
the advent are a race of synergy and subtlety. Giving the advent superweapon more versatility by giving it an economic aspect as well would mean that it would need to be built to maximize the advent economic efficiency. Perhaps 3 of the cannons would be used to improve your economy/defensive capability while the other 1 would be used to assault the opponents main fleet with yours.
Either way the VERSATILITY of the weapon when compared to the other superweapons would ensure its construction despite its high cost.
Its not just that Serath I made a post about it but logistically it is very bad for a fully offensive fleet. If you go into full offense trees with the other races you get the Kostura and Novalith. With the Advent you need to go down the Hostility Tree AND the Harmony tree. This is a very bad mix.
@mayallcommunion
You provide a strong reason why the advent superweapon should have the most VERSATILITY, for both economic and military use.
The DE is kind of weak in my OP. I'd like to see it maybe, decrease tax income and resource rates, maybe slow ship and building production or even stop it all together for a period of time. That way it also damages the other players Econ more and more or less disables that gravity well.
I never did understand why the advent super weapon wasn't in the military section. Well I guess I can. It does shoot culture after all. But in all reality it really isn't worth the cost to go down both trees to get a decent fleet and a useless super.
If it were to affect tax and resource extraction rates it would need to stop it all together. Secondly, doesn't the kostura disable construction frigs, along with structures, and if it does what would be the point of giving the ability to disable ship and building production, when the vasari already do that. that's coping and it's boring.
You'd be infringing on the Kostura's territory.
I feel like their focuses should be the following:
Novalith: strategic nuke
Kostura: tactical weapon
Deliverance: psychological weapon
Honestly, what gamerlamb said earlier isn't something I'm opposed to.
Deliverance IMO should only affect allegiance and culture. I feel like it should spawn strong culture from the planet that will dominate the target well for the duration and decrease the allegiance of the planet. If a planet is neutral, I see no reason why it shouldn't be able to cap it. These make it strategic. Given that it is a mind-control weapon, I feel like it should have a minor boost to Advent damage while having also slightly debuffing enemy performance.
That said, if we decided to take the route where we made the superweapons truly super, I'd be comfortable giving it the capacity to cap enemy ships/structures, though I'd be hesitant to do a flat percentage. Perhaps instacap 10 frigates plus 5% of the remaining ones.
Following suit, on the Kostura, we'd have to make it even more powerful than it was originally. Completely disable enemy ships and structures and deal massive damage to all of them.
The Novalith then should be able to bomb a planet down a level. Terran>Desert>Asteroid>Asteroid Field; Lava/Ice>Asteroid>Asteroid Field and make it uncolonizable for a very long time. Perhaps even have ships in the gravity well receive 3-5 DPS from radiation.
I like the OP idea. Its mildly useful as it is if you need that slight damage boost in a tough fight, but rarely worth the cost to make it. The conversion thing would be a good idea, add a little strategic usefulness to it. And in answer to some other reply's, whats more psychologically terrifying than your former comrades turning on you instantly. if you don't want it to be too powerful have it be temporary, and the ships disappear after a certain time
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