I don't play MP so nobody here will listen to me at all and I'll just be called a noob, but it seems to be something's broken if a ship is countering its counter.

Ragnarovs snipe and exposive shot all out-range repulsion..

Ion bolts from multiple akkans only have to get within 500km from there 7000km range

Akkans Armistice disables abilities with 12,000 km from the repulsions 7500 range which means you can micro you fleet in the middle of threat and let all your sabotage reactor, ion bolts, hoshikos disable guardians and kill them off. 

 

 

Assumptions being made:

A tec player doesn't have its favoured javelis fleet with a Akkan targeting uplink from the start of the game to the point of facing eradica guardian combos. Which means there not playing how people should play tec to win games more efficiently.

Fleet is better than titan ...only when in the hands of a pro with ability and strike craft micromanagement. 

You don't need you own titan-which you do against the advent. 

You don't need Akkans which do need to be a pro tec player

 

Did i watch your replay: Yes i did with my Intel HD graphics 3000 with turbo cache memory. (sad but very efficient laptop tbh-smooth gameplay)

 

Problem with this discussion:

Mayalls ultimate goal is to get repulsion nerfed because he simply finds planning ahead too difficult of a task and very tedious. No matter what answer is given he just ignores it and makes it meaningless and an interuption to his official goal. 

He/she believes that Push,Repulsion and titan is the ultimate weapon in the game: It is the ultimate weapon-esp with a race with a bad economy and strong military..out spam them with lrm with uplink with additional carriers or face death at the hands of just a small advent fleet..( is vasari the strongest late game or is advent..think very closely about this when considering this topic and remember advent only get by because of their technlogies and hardly survive late game).

We have had repulsion for years now but why are advent said to be weak late game? Because theres a counter for it and you just need experience to deal with it. Please bare in mind no matter what situation you are in there is always a counter..

Solution

You should change the title of this post and topic to just discuss the RB. It is more important. 

Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 46
Quoting Ryat, reply 45
Quoting bilun, reply 43That said if repulse were to be nerfed it would have to be handled very carefully. It's one of the advent fleet's most important tools.

This I agree with.

I do agree as well, I never said it needed a hard nerf. Personally I think if they nerf the range to where they can be hit by most units they would be fine. Merely because this spell should not be a 10 second immunity to everything but javelis and bombers. It should be used for its utility in being able to stop fleets from phase jumping and pushing enemies back to help in a retreat.

 

I have to disagree.  Much of the point of repulse is to knock enemies out of attack range.  if "most units" aren't knocked out of attack range it doesn't really fufill what is likely it's core purpose.

 

Honestly I think if it were to be nerfed it would need to be a nerf to the duration/cooldown rather then the area.  Make it a shorter "immunity to short-range ships" then it is now.

Frankly I think it needs to be able to keep short range ships away- for a time.  the knobs I think would be reasonable to turn to balance it would be adjusting how long and how often it can keep enemies away rather then it's ability to do so at all.

When I said this sort of nerf should be handled very carefully I chiefly meant that entire uses of the ability shouldn't be removed- just how efficient it is at that use should be reduced a bit.

 

Another potential nerf I could see being reasonable is just make titans immune(or even just resistant to) to repulse.  But reducing the range to the point where it can't knock most frigates out of attack range more or less defeats one of the chief purposes of the ability(especially since doing so would require something like a 30% reduction in area radius- that's a huge nerf).

Should orgov had been able to kill the foundry from afar while is fleet is taking out the guardians as they spawn?

 

If you had him by the balls so much why did you let him pump? Where was your Hot drop SB, you know the thinf the players says I can either kill is fleet and die or I can kill is SB and die...?

 

cheers

I can experiment with Particle Effects and ability buff indicators that denote when an Argonev has the BRB active if that will be helpful to you, Mayall...

I'm not so sure how helpful the indicator will be since if I want cheap damage, I'll just level it once while the SB is in battle and pop it right after the upgrade is complete and the SB is close to failing...

I love this.  Two threads going side by side, one for nerfing red button, one for buffing it.  

For the record I support this thread, not the other.

This all depends as I do not actually have access to a computer right now that can handle it. But you are quiet the chracter Fyrstar:)

Quoting RiddleKing, reply 47Ragnarovs snipe and exposive shot all out-range repulsion..

Ion bolts from multiple akkans only have to get within 500km from there 7000km range

Akkans Armistice disables abilities with 12,000 km from the repulsions 7500 range which means you can micro you fleet in the middle of threat and let all your sabotage reactor, ion bolts, hoshikos disable guardians and kill them off. 

 

 

Assumptions being made:

A tec player doesn't have its favoured javelis fleet with a Akkan targeting uplink from the start of the game to the point of facing eradica guardian combos. Which means there not playing how people should play tec to win games more efficiently.

Fleet is better than titan ...only when in the hands of a pro with ability and strike craft micromanagement. 

You don't need you own titan-which you do against the advent. 

You don't need Akkans which do need to be a pro tec player

 

Did i watch your replay: Yes i did with my Intel HD graphics 3000 with turbo cache memory. (sad but very efficient laptop tbh-smooth gameplay)

 

Problem with this discussion:

Mayalls ultimate goal is to get repulsion nerfed because he simply finds planning ahead too difficult of a task and very tedious. No matter what answer is given he just ignores it and makes it meaningless and an interuption to his official goal. 

He/she believes that Push,Repulsion and titan is the ultimate weapon in the game: It is the ultimate weapon-esp with a race with a bad economy and strong military..out spam them with lrm with uplink with additional carriers or face death at the hands of just a small advent fleet..( is vasari the strongest late game or is advent..think very closely about this when considering this topic and remember advent only get by because of their technlogies and hardly survive late game).

We have had repulsion for years now but why are advent said to be weak late game? Because theres a counter for it and you just need experience to deal with it. Please bare in mind no matter what situation you are in there is always a counter..

Solution

You should change the title of this post and topic to just discuss the RB. It is more important. 

Riddleking its almost as though you do not play rebellion. The Advent are NO longer weak early game. They are on par with all the other races. No planning ahead is not difficult you are not understanding what I am saying at all. If a unit only has one counter it needs a nerf. Ragnarovs snipe has a huge cooldown. Explosive Shots has a cooldown and there is no way it will actually even kill the guardians. Multiple akkans is a huge investment and again could fuck you in the end, Armistice is a level 6 upgrade there is no guarantee that you will get it.

You're wrong. Just deal with it RiddleKing. I am not making assumptions you're making unrealistic counters that pigeonhole TEC into a bend over position. You clearly speak Starcraft so lets talk about it. early on before Zerg got a line of buffs the Zerg had trouble dealing with terran units(my memory on the situation is a bit foggy but the point remains the same). As Zerglings were countered by marines, and the only way to actually counter the marines was through roaches. However when you built roaches to counter marines the Terran would build Marauders. This resulted in the zerg being pigeonholed into being unable to counter terran, there was virtually no way a Zerg could be a terran. Until Zerg got buffed and Fruit Dealer(the Zerg Tourney player) won one of the first Tournaments with the Zerg after the buffs.

Now im going to level with you, but before I do let me say. Building Javelis is the TEC's favorite strategy? In Diplomacy yes, but Javelis in Rebellion is a death sentence. Which is one of the reasons why I do not believe you actually own rebellion, but were not going to go into that. You expect the TEC to build javelis, when


You cannot actually get a critical mass of them because they are no longer a viable opener due to Corvettes.
To counter Corvettes you build Flak which also counter Javelis
To counter Flak you can do two things, which are build LF's. Which would then allow you to build Javelis OR rush straight for heavies which have a better payoff because.

They are not easily killed by Titans and will not feed it. Also en masse of around 20 they melt titans.
Javelis on the other hand are squishy, feed the titan and dont actually counter Guardians.

So riddleking, here is a small lesson for you and what you have assumed. The TEC no longer favors the javelis design, to be honest they are now in the same position as diplomacy LF's are.
The suggestions you are suggesting to actually counter Guardians is stupid. A titan cost 9500/1200/750. A guardian is dirt cheap. The same goes for Capital ships, sure maybe I could get muiltiple akkan, now hes going to destroy my fleet because those resources were not put into Heavies.

Enjoy that logic.

 


Quoting bilun, reply 49
Quoting MayallCommunion, reply 46
Quoting Ryat, reply 45
Quoting bilun, reply 43That said if repulse were to be nerfed it would have to be handled very carefully. It's one of the advent fleet's most important tools.

This I agree with.

I do agree as well, I never said it needed a hard nerf. Personally I think if they nerf the range to where they can be hit by most units they would be fine. Merely because this spell should not be a 10 second immunity to everything but javelis and bombers. It should be used for its utility in being able to stop fleets from phase jumping and pushing enemies back to help in a retreat.

 

I have to disagree.  Much of the point of repulse is to knock enemies out of attack range.  if "most units" aren't knocked out of attack range it doesn't really fufill what is likely it's core purpose.

 

Honestly I think if it were to be nerfed it would need to be a nerf to the duration/cooldown rather then the area.  Make it a shorter "immunity to short-range ships" then it is now.

Frankly I think it needs to be able to keep short range ships away- for a time.  the knobs I think would be reasonable to turn to balance it would be adjusting how long and how often it can keep enemies away rather then it's ability to do so at all.

When I said this sort of nerf should be handled very carefully I chiefly meant that entire uses of the ability shouldn't be removed- just how efficient it is at that use should be reduced a bit.

 

Another potential nerf I could see being reasonable is just make titans immune(or even just resistant to) to repulse.  But reducing the range to the point where it can't knock most frigates out of attack range more or less defeats one of the chief purposes of the ability(especially since doing so would require something like a 30% reduction in area radius- that's a huge nerf).

I see your point, perhaps keep the range, and have repulsion push them back. But then have the ability disable after the push back. Through proper micro you could keep the enemy fleet at bay like you can now but it will actually take effort and will give the enemy more windows to attack you.

Quoting Ryat, reply 21Javelis' out range repulsion at base level (per game code Javelis's range 9800, Repulsion 7500).

That said, Repulsion has been an issue for a while so I agree with you MayallCommunion.



Interesting discussion, altho RiddleKung is so biased you can't trust anything he says, but like Ryat, I also agree with MayallCommunion. 

Pertinent ranges (these r old numbers, I hope they r right): 

Repulsion..... 7500 vs:
Javelis......... 9800
Assailant...... 7820
Illuminator... 5520

All LFs.......... 3500
All HCs......... 3150

LF's Specials.. ????


RedButton Lvl 1..... 9000
RedButton Lvl 2.... 14000 vs:
Ogrov.................. 12000
Solanus................ 12000

So what is the range for Sabatoge Reactor, Steal Antimatter & Interference?  SpardaSon hits the nail on the head: something is broken if a counter can't reach its counter!


Quoting Seleuceia, reply 50If you really think repulsion is OP, I'd advocate removing the "reset physics state" modifier

Good point as well.

. My main point is right now the only 'effective' counter to repulsion is as you said bombers, but that can be negated by Telekinetic Push and Flak. Repulsion has no counter.