Well, i just tested, 15 min after the start, i have my titan
this is way too fast as the titans are virtually invulnerable to whatever other players can have at the begining. The only defence is a turret spam, and turrets don't move ^^
Also, i figured the only way to kill a titan would be a massive heavy cruiser spam (as flak dies to titans very fast, the fighters take the bombers out easy)
i might be wrong but after testing it in mp, loyalist titan just dosen't want to die.
Also, the loyalist nova is ... too easy to spam, its a mp killer, with 2 nova (roughly 20k credit worth - or 15k with the cost decrease tech)
there is no real counter to it since it kills the enemy economy even if they sb'd every planet they have (witch is way more expensive then making novas)
I want a disable super weapon option! Or at the very least, put a weapon failure algorythm they're experimental anyway, make em blow up for weapon malfunction once in a while ^^
I love the Titan as it is.
But i only play single player.
What about options at game creation (Single or Multi)
1. That limits the number of super weapons built per player say 3 or 5 ?
2. Reduces the strength of Titans by a set % like 10, 20 or 25%
3. Time delay on Titan access like 20 mins or 30 mins before you can even build that titan factory?
... meh dude ...
everyone is not able to what good players do, for starters, thats the basics of humanity, we're all different ^^
now, the problem is that a titan, kills, EVERYTHING in its range. It means, that other ships are useless. Now thats a big problem, i mean, i played mp games with only akkan and titan. on 10 games i have 10 wins witch is uterly stupid because i just made a titan ... i'm just far more experienced then most testers right now, so i can get my titan faster, and have a better level quicker ... the sheer invulnerability of the thing is what makes it stupid, why make other ships? just play capital only sins mod and you'll have the same ^^
The loyalist titan IS op, not something you can discuss, honestly, its not even an argument here. It WILL be nerfed, or rebellion will never work out.
Now i'm not whining, you'll be whining if you challenge me to a game (god i hate those people that believe they're right so strongle. Makes me want to say "NO I'M RIGHT YOU SUCK!!!" witch is stupid but i'll say it)
NO, YOU SUCK. I AM RIGHT.
Sorry?!.
The titans need to be killable with fleet only. And not possible to build while other players that didn't rush it can't counter it.
Now thats a hard balance to achieve, i agree with the fact that titans must be monsters, but i never signed on to fight belzebuth with underpants only.
Also, the need for a bigger scale of feed is dire. 250 per click is ... come on, once in mid game, you don't want to click 100 times to feed.
oh and to counter the novas just build shields gens the help out alot
Well I have to agree about the titans, played for an hour built one, noticed the graphics overall looked a little nicer meh quit more of the same doesnt really add anything to the gameplay. I wish they would steer away from the action game.
I understand its a beta but jesus christ boring, and ive played sins since it first came out, i just hope they do ok with sales on this if they bother doing any more, i hope they do
READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY THE TITANS DONT NEED TO BE NERFED YET!!!
the low lvl titans can be kills by fleets and higher lvl titans need a titan and fleet to kill them. once the advent and vasari r added then the nerfing should be done if still need
the problem being, i can get a lvl 4 titan by leveling it early ... if you didn't do that, you end up with a dead fleet and a lvl 1 titan at 50% hull
The difference between 15 minutes to make a titan and 30 minutes is massive if you go econ instead of military. At 30 minutes a eco player should easily be able to build and keep up a fleet that can do something about a titan being built. IMO titans are simply too strong, and seem to more or less force a military rush which cuts down on diversity. If you rush military you already get SB's but now you'd also get titans? Opinion of a far from pro player.
I totaly agree with you. Titans are ways to cheap and easy to build. Make them availiable only for large empires, not for everyone with more then a handfull of planets.
I agree with KLMZ.
The Loyalist Titan is over the top , like Rocky Balboa is fighting agains a bunch of schoolkids.
The immortal Titan is decreasing diversity in strategies. I dont like the stone, rock , paper philosophie when it comes down to counters.
A Titan shoud be abel to be defeated by a regular armee, otherwies this leads to a game with less diversion.
But i hope that balancing a titan dont means to delay him so much, that it will become a rare seen flying superwapon.
i woud like to implement it in my startegies in midgame, so i guess to balance the abbilities, heath point and dps is the way to go.
Yes, right, it's to fast to get his.
CREATE ONE TITAN TECH ON 6 LEVEL IN MILITARY TECH for ~2600cr, 400met, 650crys.
agreed
perhaps maybe a certain level of capital ship research? (you can only research for a Titan command unit after this level etc)
so as to aid in the longer build / overall cost
Am I correct when I say most want the Titan to be a more midgame weapon and feel its slightly to much of an early game weapon atm? or is that just me
While I have no hard stats, after playing a few games as loyalists and then trying the rebels for the first time I was amazed at how much more fragile the rebel titan felt. My rebel titan's level never got too high so if it truly is an offensive juggernaut then perhaps it does even out in the end, but right from the start the loyalist titan is a beast.
The only thing that ever gave my loyalist titan some grief when I sent it solo up against a 17k health upgraded starbase surrounded by turrets, repair bays, and hangars. But even then my ship won in the end, and it was starting to feel a little silly.
Later while the titan was eating the pirate base I sent the rest of my titan-less fleet on ahead to try and make a mad dash for the enemy capital planet through 4 heavily defended gravity wells, the fleet didn't even get halfway there before being wiped out, only to find that sending my titan alone afterwards there was literally no way for the enemy to stop me. Even with the 700% warp time penalty debuff my titan just soaked it up and plowed ahead.
While I do not want to call for nerfs without caution, I think a close eye should be kept on the loyalist titan. I get the feeling that at low levels they should maybe be about 10-20% weaker than they currently are, and at high levels maybe 5-10% weaker than they are now (if not in overall stats then at least in their defensive special abilities). But that is just a gut feeling.
I could see the Vasari faction with the gravity-well jumping starbases being able to stand up to a titan, always being able to warp in another starbase as soon as the first goes down. But I am having a hard time imagining much else that could stop a rampaging TEC loyalist titan.
You guys are really underestimating Ragna. While Ankylon is kind of armored battering ram, Ragna is more of a catapult. It can't tank, but will rape any fleet with insane AoE or break any defense with snipe. Support it with lots of hoshi and it's a beast.... that being said, Ankylon tank still needs nerfing.
This is a matter of knowing your audience. Does the devs want Sins to be a quick slugfest? Or the Sins of old, a deep drawn out hours long strategy game?
Most mods that have Titans have this pace down very well, in Soa2 you don't get a Soverign until level 8 tech and it's a good old Sins frigate,cruiser,cap battles beforehand.
Titans SHOULD be rare, something at least an hour into the game before you see....it was nice to see early in the beta JUST to see it, but don't ruin the whole pacing of Sins so we can play with a new toy.
I have a feeling Titans and the fact that Stardock is really doing the brunt work of this game as opposed to Ironclad we may have opened up a pandoras box...
God I hope this isn't Wing Commander Prophecy all over again....
I know it's beta, but even at this stage they should have figured out that a 4 military lab Titan was WAY TO EARLY DEPLOYED.
I think we all agree at the point, that building a Titan is waaaays to easy(possible too early).
Basically there are 2 possibilities to solve this problem:
1) drastically increase the amount of ressources required for both, researching Titan-Tech as well as building the Titan. Maybe increase the costs for the Titan-Factory as well
2) Make it harder to sucessfully finish the construction of a Titan
IMHO it´s a must to increase the costs of building a Titan, point 2 on the other hand is optional, but would make the game much more interesting, and make building a Titan more of a task. There are several possibilities to do this, but I just want to point up one:
A few days ago I read somewhere in the Forums, that Stars have no practical use and that you should be abled to construct some kind of Solar-Harvester at a star. So here is my suggestion:-Remove Titan-Factories from Tactical Structures-Allow the ships who construct Starbases to build Titan-Factories(this has to be researched)-Titan-Factories can be only build at stars, since the power that is required to build a Titan, can be only directly "harvested" with Solar-Panels from a star-The costs for the Factory remain the same, but the price for the Titan is increased-The different researches for the Titan get removed and replaced by a single, high-tech(6+ Labs), expensive research which allows the construction of the Titan-Before a Titan can be build in a Factory, the Factory has to "harvest" enough Antimatter from the star(it stats with 0 when build and then slowly generates Antimatter)
Things like that would make the construction of a Titan more challenging and forces the player to actively protect his Titan while build, instead of building save, deep inside of his Empire. At a star, the factory and thus the Titan in construction is much more vulnerable -> the construction of an expensive Titan is a greater risk.
There is very simple effective elegant and skill-based way to solve early titan problem.
Cause all your" make it more expensive, nerf it, make it build longer, solutions , wont change the fact titan are suppouse to be end-fleet mass controll weapon , lag preventors.
Titan is an answer for 100 lrms fleets with max upgrades. Its suppuse to beat or at least be equal to that fleet. Nerfing titans will make them obselite. But early game titans are just OPED as sova rush or akkan with hosi.
Solution is more simple then u can imagine.
Add 1 reqirement for building titan:
lv6 capital ship crew or even lv8
Then the titan , especialy early titan will be a scrifice. Lv8 cap means only 1 cap.
So it wil be either standrad fleet , or support fleet for maxing 1 cap ship level.
Simple ellegant effective, and what an beautifull goal.
Also eco spot will be fun again , almost as much as when kostura were a weapon
PS: Sith it is superweepon, it should be rare, deadly , hard to kill as 22k hp vasari starbase.
It should be raping lrms left and right, and if u want to kil it u should have heawy stuff, caps hc carriers, corvettes not lrms.
Hunting titan should be like hunting Moby Dick
Qu4r, I don´t realy see, how your proposal is so different to the other ones. In fact, I don´t understand what you do want to state with you post: At the beginning you say that making Titans harder to get/delaying them, won´t change the fact that a Titan beats a 100 LRMF fleet. And imho there´s nothing wrong with it, except that Titans are excessible too early and are too cheap. You can have a Titan so much earlier then a full upgraded 100 LRMF fleet.
I don´t understand what you want to say in your next 2 sentences, but I assume that you wanted to say that Titan-Rushes are OP and you want to solve this Problem by sacrificing a high-level Capital for the Titan.What is the difference between delaying Titans either by costs, by Tech or by needing a high-level Capital. Your proposal doesn´t change anything ours don´t.
Anyways, I think your proposal is neither ellegant, nor effective, nor beatiful. It takes very long to aquire a Lvl8 Cap, especially when playing against human opponents. Making it required for a Titan, punishes a defensive or ecomic playstyle. Furthermore would it be stupid to have an Empire expanding over an entire, huge Solar-System with a sh*tload of ressources, but still unabled to build a Titan, because you have to "farm" experience with a Capital.And seriously, who would want to sacrifice a Lvl8 Capital, a Capital he fought so many battles with, and that might even exist nearly as long as his empire(this might be just me, but whatever).Simply increasing a Titans costs or making the actual building harder, like I suggested in my post above makes much more sense, you don´t have to "sacrifice" a ship(what simply doesn´t fit into Sins) and you don´t have to "farm"/"level" a single ship(thus opening more viable playstyles).
And hunting a Titan is like hunting Mobby Dick if you don´t play vs. AI only.
I'm agree that the Titan is maybe too fast to build, once I've builded it I roll over my 3 enemies one planet after another with no resistence. Even the starbase was no match for my not upgraded Titan and little fleet.
It take a lot of command and fleet supply, ans some research, but once you have these prerequisites and the titan is builded the game seam very easy. What's more, the AI have build the Titan Factory, but no one of them build the titan to stop me in my destruction. However I've played only on Normal Difficulty, maybe at higher difficulty it's another thing.
Think out of the box.
All other proposal says: more expensive,, longer to build, or nerf them.
I say add requirement. No need to sacrifice lv6 or lv8 cap, just need to have one.
It adds new strategy , new openings.
There is a hudge difference between make it more expensive and adding new reuirement thas is not based on cash " more expensive again"
If its level 5, 6 or 8, its a balance issue.
It doesnt punish anyone especialy eco spot players. it benefits them.
By the time eco gets to position for attack, he will have required cap level.
Adding this requirement also will balance a bit differences in income between races.
Normaly Tec will bunker his frontier, eco a bit then rush titan. same whet they do now with spamming lrms , but it will give them much bigger advantage.
Now they will have to change strategy, level cap, or........... keep spamming lrms
I think more options, more viable stratiegies is better.
I like that you can go Titan early build tactic, but i agree its little too good at start atm. I like the idea that it will slowly get better and better.
I dont like idea making it harder to get becouse then you be much more longer trouble if you get early rush. I think better idea is to make Titans upgrades cost something similar to star bases. So with lvl you get little stats and get option to buy something for Titan. So you could get Titans hull early but you had to research and buy to upgrade it. So nerf its starting power and lower its powerups time + adding its cost. Becouse atm at games it feels silly that after i get Titan out it only needs exp to get better. I thought you had to keep putting more money to keep it at good shape. Now after i get Titan out i can just start bumb other stuff.
Sorry for bad english.
Well, the general audience of this game likes large fleet battles with LOTS of ships.
Here's a break down of titans currently from my testing which requires watching how many banks, heal times, etc.
Titans appear to do somewhere between 500-600 DPS to all targets.
This is tracked by surrounding a titan with multiple frigates and checking how many are damaged.
Loyalist appears to have 2/2/3/3 (front/back/left/right)
Rebel appears to be 1/2/2/2
Titans have ultimate class abilities at LEVEL 1, with LOW AM costs.
You have to look at abilities like missile barrage or volatile nanites to find something comparable to level 1 titan abilities.
Or a pay up ability on Star Bases like Meteor Storm or Self Destruct which are easily avoidable.
Further the AM requirements are less than abilities like Radiation Damage which is a fairly weak ability.
Titans per level stat increases are huge.
Excluding the passive upgrades, Titans have extremely large per level increases for durability.
What to do about it?
I'm a fan of early game struggle and build up to critical mass, but also want the titan to be an early viable option.
If I had my way the huge per-level stat increases would be reduced ALOT, like to only a couple times the Battleship or Siege capital levels. I would then balance Titan Durability and Damage using the Passive abilities.
In terms of damage it might make sense to add weapon unlocks to the passives, somewhat similar to how starbases unlock weapons. This would NERF early game damage, but still allow for a Titan to significantly increase it's damage output with each weapon unlock.
I'd also look at rebalancing Titan abilities. Their AM and cooldown are extremely low allowing a player to spam all the abilities pretty much all the time in battle. Making the AM/cooldown much higher (like ultimate level) would limited early game use, while buffing the passive Abilities to have more impact for later game usage.
In short I'd NERF the hell out of base per level increases, damage output (by locking weapons) and ability AM/cooldown costs. I'd then BUFF the passive upgrade choices for Durability, Weapons (unlock additional weapons), and Ability to increase AM and decrease cooldowns.
This would require the player to make choices about how the Titan will grow from early to mid-game.
Then again akkan+hoshi combo(akkan- highest HP cap in game, hoshi-only viable early-game repair cruiser) would be best for earning XP needed for titan. Add to that best economy of tec+best colo ability on akkan and you get OP TEC all over again.
People will yell at me ^^'
Can someone tell me how a titan (that is a moving object) can be tougher then a sb ...
i mean come on! If you can't build a sb with 40k hit points, how the hell can you have a 40k hp titan (people will tell me experience on the crew but ... its a super large ship, tell me how the hell do they avoid shots or repair that fast then again, it could be because it has the necessary machinery to make it possible and that its too large to fit on other ships. but then! the sbs should have that too ^^=
I don't agree with the fact that ttians should be bunker cutters, for me they are fleet cutters, and bunkers should stay bunkers, they have their counter already, starfish (the starfish sucks but thats for another day), ogrov and vas sb
So ... maybe lower the titan ability to damage structures, that would make it far easyer to defend against on your wells, and reduce their weapon banks
The main problem of the titan early isnt its ability to survive, its the ability to slaughter everything close and level up to being even harder to kill. With less weapon banks, the losses will be fewer, and then you have a chance to kill it, it will also force player to pinpoint their target.
Now for the bug (witch isnt one but i cannot forgive it so i'm being a dick about it)
THE TITANS AUTOTARGET AIR first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
COME OOOOOOON! NO! NO! NO!
Ok i'm being emotional here but thats because i like the titan thingy, i did all the betas of sins and this is the less bugged, and funnyest so far for me.
So thank you for that ^^
Now as a last note, i love the concept of the gauss on the rebel titan, its epic.
Freekin wall of text. Well anyway, i agree with zombieman up there, he has some very good points
none of the ideas help the titans since there is nothing wrong with them the only thing they do is make the titans useless and before they get nerf the advent and vasari need to be out and if anything changes on them occurs before then it should be to make them harder to lvl
the titans r not stronger than the sb i took my lvl 8 ankylon against a full upgraded sb and i nearly lost it by the time i got it out of the grav well it had like 7k hull left
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