Well, I've played the FE beta long enough to believe that I have some decent feedback to give. Almost everything that I'm going to say already has a thread (sometimes three), but I'm hoping I can bring a little bit of my own touch to the discussion. There are some things I want to touch on only briefly, either because they've been talked about so much already or because the devs have indicated that they're in the works:
More important, in my mind, are the basic rules of the game, the foundational elements that make the game Fallen Enchantress rather than, say, GalCiv. The basic rules can be split into two categories: strategic and tactical. Of these two categories, the tactical has the greater number of errors and overlooked details, most of which have been addressed in other threads, while the strategic has the larger individual flaws. I'm going to hit some of the major gameplay issues and propose solutions for each one. Hopefully I'll say something worth hearing. Strategic level:There are several elements of the strategic gameplay that are schizophrenically dualistic, among them
These elements tend to tie into one another, but for the purposes of analytical clarity, I'll do my best to separate them out. TL;DR: by trying to treat the RPG mechanics on a high-gildar scale and the civilization mechanics on a low-gildar scale, we end up with an unpalatable result.
Gildar: The key problem here is the vast disparity between taxation and item sales. A single lucky goodie hut can provide the income for hundreds of game turns, especially early in the game. Compare taxation income at, say, turn 25 against the 700 gildar sale of a very expensive, as-yet-unusable weapon. There is no incentive to raise taxes when we stand to gain such incredible wealth as a matter of course just from wandering around the map. If we do not have to manage our gildar, then why have it at all? Alternatively, if we don't abuse item sales, every single gildar is precious; +1 maintenance per turn on a building is an enormous penalty.
Proposal: Merged with the proposal for "Item purchases and sales", below.
Item purchases and sales: In addition to the problems I've listed above, there are issues of verisimilitude and consistency with the item shops. In a post-apocalyptic world where humanity's an endangered species and I can't scrape together 4 gildar per turn in taxation without inducing 16% of my population to quit their jobs in protest (despite the dangers of inaction), I somehow have access to a merchant with a bottomless purse, a venture capitalist with a vault so vast that he's willing to fund the experiment that is my entire kingdom for decades on the basis of a sale of a single poison-dripping dagger. Moreover, while my people may have just spent a decade researching the secrets of blacksmithing/horsemanship, he's already got a limitless supply of metal/horses to provide to my champions. It doesn't matter that I haven't managed to build a mine or a pasture yet; it doesn't matter that I can't outfit my rank and file; the merchant will meet the needs of my champions no matter what materials would go into this effort, and best of all, he does it in zero time, with zero production loss. To all of this, I say: who is this handsome stranger who is richer than all of the nations of the world combined, and why can't I just seize his limitless purse, his magical mine/pasture/crystal cavern, and his blessed forge where I may smith what I want, when I want, as fast as I want, at no cost? Proposal: Kill the merchant. Entirely. Eliminate it from the game with the most extreme of prejudices. Gildar is gathered painstakingly from your cities or your mines and is used to pay your soldiers' wages and upkeep, not to buy limitless magic items as if this were a post-scarcity universe. There are no more endless pockets of wealth just out of your sovereign's reach. You outfit your champions the same way you outfit your rank and file: with production from the cities, costing materials and time but no gold. Monster drops are folded into production: a wolf pelt allows you, say, 20 production worth of leather in zero time, for a champion or for a unit. Demon horns might produce magic staves or some such. This way, we really get that post-cataclysmic sense, we actually have to raise taxes above "none", and we get rid of the equipment dissonance between units and champions. If I have the crystal, I can make the magic sword for my hero; I don't have to dump 250 years' worth of taxation into some merchant's hand while I'm simultaneously outfitting an entire division of rank-and-file soldiers with the same mass-produced magic sword at no cost beyond a division's worth of crystal. City growth: The game doesn't seem to know whether it wants few cities or many cities. There's a prestige mechanic that increases growth across your entire civilization, but there's also an easy-to-research Inn that allows you to quickly derive a much greater benefit from multiple cities. Add in extremely cheap settlers, subtract any penalties for city founding, and we get the impression that sprawl is the way the game is supposed to be played. The eight-tile hard founding limit and the six-tile soft expansion limit are the only restraining factors. Proposal: Incentivize whichever one is desired, and penalize the others. Having my prestige growth of 1 spread across two cities is not much of a penalty if by having two Inns I can get double the growth. Cities should be harder to found; it should require an influx of gildar and a chunk of time, and/or low population should hemorrhage gildar. Perhaps Normal-level city taxation should only break even upon reaching city level 2. Naturally, this would require bumping up starting gildar; either that, or eliminate the penalty for the capital only. This would also force us to manage taxation while providing an incentive to expand only when our economies can support doing so. You should potentially consider increasing growth slightly, perhaps in a way related to "Food", below. Food: Cities have two immutable stats upon founding, Grain and Production. Grain, however, feels like a throwaway stat. In the real world, food is the main practical driver and limiter of population growth. Where food is abundant, populations expand; where it is scarce, they contract. In FE, for any given city, food acts as a binary check: do I have sufficient food to support the next population point? If so, grow; if not, don't. In the current city-sprawl, low-pop-growth-in-dozens-of-cities based system, food is almost entirely irrelevant for hundreds of seasons. And especially in the late game, where techs provide big food bonuses per grain and I'm only going to be growing a city by .5 to 1 population a turn (due to the number of cities I have), why should I consider the food level of a city location if it's not going to affect my city for another 300 seasons? Food needs to provide immediate feedback; otherwise, it feels like a static and mostly-irrelevant consideration.
Proposal: There are a lot of potential ways to go here.
Strategy wrap-up: Cities or scenery?:
Tactical level:The problems I'm going to talk about on the tactical level are
Initiative: The initiative system, depending so heavily as it does on your units' weapons, results in bizarre and undesirable loadouts, such as sending a spellcasting champion into battle with a dagger. This might work if you're into virgin sacrifice, but what if you just want to carry the traditional staff? In that case, you'll probably end up punished by going from +6 to -6 initiative. Furthermore, there's already an encumbrance system in the game, yet some armor types provide additional penalties to initiative beyond whatever encumbrance applies. A dagger should be able to swing quickly, but it doesn't make me move faster. (I'm pretty sure my parents taught me not to run with knives, actually.) In the real world, there's no difference between wearing fifty pounds of plate and fifty pounds of maille, and neither of them will affect the speed at which I chant a mystical sutra.
Proposal: Start thinking about initiative in a holistic way.
Lethality: The devs are working on equalizing weapons and armor, but there's one matter I haven't seen addressed yet, which is ping damage. To my understanding-- and correct me if I'm wrong-- it doesn't matter how well I've kitted out my squad of 3 heavy knights; they're still green troops, which means that they have 6 hit points between them, for a total of 18, and a unit of 9 clubmen will ping them for 9 damage per action. Two such units-- eighteen hunchbacked, grunting, proto-sapient cavemen-- will club my 3 technologically advanced Glorious Get of the Celestial Axe to death in one turn. Am I understanding this mechanic correctly? If so... Proposal: Apply ping at the end of a unit's attack, not once per member of the unit. In other words, if the entire unit would have its attack reduced to 0 because every member's blow glanced off the opposition's armor, then raise the total damage to 1. Don't raise each single member's minimum damage to 1. Other matters:There are other details that need work: access to the Hiergamenon, tooltips that are useful (I need to be able to see what tactical spell effects on my units mean!), explanation of the Wildlands (I found the Imperium, I believe it's called; I thought I was supposed to be able to claim it, but if so, I'm not seeing a way to do it), but most important to me are the systems that make up the core of the game. Everything else can be tweaked, but you can't change the foundation once it's set. Houses built on sand, and all that. I hope my feedback has been helpful.
Nice video! Thanks for showing us the coming attractions.
If barracks costs gildar per turn and reduces production cost (which also reduces maintenance costs), then building barracks should only be done with an excess of gildar and many units coming up.
Besides the ways mentioned above to fix it, I'd like to see something different thrown into the equation such as barracks give +1 attack or otherwise boost stats of units. Then it's a trade off gildar per turn and delay in more units and more powerful units afterward. Plus barracks would then have a unique role as opposed to just making things faster.
Mining and Shard Harvesting should both offer something that will give them an edge against spearmen. I would let them unlock a trait and item each for training.
Shard Harvesting should offer a magical shield that negates the spear's penetration or increases Init. The trait should offer more static health per unit at a high labor increase. Call it Protection Aura (+4Hp).
Mining should offer the Hasta, a weaker spear that is one-handed. If that is too good, maybe just a really nice early game shield that weighs alot, preventing it's use with armor. The trait should offer some strength. Call it Forged Strength (+3 Strength). That will stack nicely with the other traits at this stage of the game, but have a high labor cost.
Now your mining and magic faction have a counter for many weak units that gives character to the choices you have made.
If only the selling price is reduced to 10 % you fix only one part of the economic unbalance, because items require a huge amount of gildar and it will take very long to get enough gildar. That is the reason why i suggested to reduce the buying price to 50 % and the selling price to 25 % of the new buying price.
Barracks should reduce the upkeep of the units in the city by 50 %.
The cleric should increase the healing of the units in the city, too.
Shards should require no tech to construct, too.
The armor penetration of daggers, spears and bows should be dex * 2.5 %.
The problem is that you need logistics to get mage groups of 5 units and if you already researched logistics it is easier to stick to the warfare path. A solution would be to start with groups of 5 units and offer upgrades to 7 and 9 to reduce the impact of the warfare path. This would make balancing the game mechanics between single units and groups easier, too.
Barracks
-25% training costs, +1 Initiative for garrisoned units, -1 Gildar per turn. This building is expertly avoided by experienced players. The bonus in no way justifies the maintenance cost. 1 Gildar is a big investment in the early game. We have no tax base to afford such a cost until the midgame, after Act II. I would get rid of the cost and chalk this one up to good warfare research. We are already paying for the food and housing of our units. A Barracks is just better organization. It should also add units to the garrison of city guards in addition to the Initiative bonus and maybe add a level to all defenders. I would also like to see a higher labor cost so that material cities can easily build one in the early game, while grain cities have to grow first. That would better differentiate warfare minded choices.
As far as the 'clink' mechanic is concerned, is the time being consumed because the game has to run a 50% chance on every damage roll? Or is it being slowed further for some other reason?
Reducing damage from mites base on rolling minimum damage nerfs their functionality against unarmored targets. I would actually recommend placing an additional modifier to armor (after calculations) to the total roll for every exponent of 7. EI: 7,21,42,70 that could potentially reduce the damage to zero.
To throw some numbers out there
Full chain (19 defense) versus 10 longbows: 10*10/(19+10) = 3.4 After this calculation the unit would then roll 2.4,
Full plate (30 defense) versus 15 (twohanded sword): 15*15/(30+15) = 5 After this calculation the unit would then roll 3
Full plate (30 defense) versus 8 (shortbows/clubs): 8*8/(8+30) = 1.6 After this calculation the unit would inflict zero
Even without hp adjustments (that I am still harking on) these changes should make attacks considerably less lethal and make units that are supposed to be difficult to topple (obsidian golems) more resilient. The number can be tweaked if neccesary. I wanted 7 specifically because that is a full leather armor set with sheild, and should help prevent this reduction from too quickly outpacing weaponry.
Did I do the calculations right? Does this seem reasonable?
This only deals with damage from weapon sources though, and doesn't resolve +damage from elemental gear.
This is probably needed 100% more than most things when it comes to "improving the AI" ... and its all about the design team really.
This is AWESOME news! I hope Frogboy hears of this, that his creation was indeed a success, it just needs a wider palette to play with.
And that would be a problem?
Hum... I hope there will be a way in the future to create and share our unit design so the AI has more things to choose.
Yeah those changes seem good. A early crystal weapon would be cool as well. Some ideas are:
-Rods which are melee fire or ice wands.
-Crystal Daggers which produce mana on hit, or apply a damage or armor debuff on hit.
If they gave mana they would help magic oriented sovereigns, and with a damage debuff they would be very good against spears because of spears' low initiative and damage. Either way with robes and knives they should definitely be called cultists or acolytes.
Just don't forget diplomatic capital. It's a resource as well so you should be able to rush for it. Biggest obstacle here is having to wait for darkling or wilding camps to level up, which can take forever. Being able to trade diplomatic capital for some monster equipment wouldn't be a horrible idea either.
Some good stuff in this thread, I'm very interested to see how this affects the next beta. I'm glad that shops are getting hit with the nerf hammer; bringing them in line with the rest of the game will make the economic side more important
Not really, it will just make buildings with a maintenance fee even worse than they are now, and same for garrisons, which will be completely impractical.
I think the tax system needs to be completely revamped for the economic side to work at all.
@DarkGaldred
I agree the economy system isn't great but it's too late in the day to overhaul it - the shop and current selling prices just make economic management totally irrelevant so it needs nerfing. I don't like the tax and unrest mechanisms either but at this stage it's a case of rebalancing them rather than changing everything.
I personally think settlements should generate more money so then maintenance wouldnt be so crippling. I also don't consider 10% tax to be 'oppressive', especially when your sovereign is offering food, shelter, and protection from a hostile world - in the UK we pay over 40% tax when you factor in all the stealth taxes and surprisingly there are no riots or mass protests in the street (according to Wiki UK tax freedom day is now May 30th) - I actually just ignore the tax % on the tax slider and just read the description as 'none', 'low', 'normal' etc.
It's an awkward system but it will be much better with some rebalancing
Some great stuff here, both in Frogboy's posts and the community's responses. I'd like to clarify (in yet another likely long-winded post) what folks are talking about regarding the various currencies and hopefully decompose the ideas to their component parts.
So, commencing decomposition...
There are three different kinds of currencies in Fallen Enchantress. All three kinds flow in from turn to turn, but their relationship to the gameplay is different.
Currently, because of maintenance, gildar (first category) is the major limiting factor when growing cities and training troops, at least if you don't cheese the sale prices. This leads to limiting the usefulness of production (third category). Maintenance prices make unnecessary development too punishing. If taxes are bringing in 12 gildar per turn, I can support a little more than two early game (size 6) armies of 1g/turn units if each one has a champion to lead it. With 2 leftover gildar per turn, am I going to spend one more gildar of maintenance on lowering production of units? Of course not. Production isn't limiting me; gildar is. That barracks will sit idle most of the game, because I can't spam units due to maintenance costs. It's not worth losing hundreds of gildar over the course of a game in the barracks' maintenance just to occasionally reduce my unit build time from 4 to 3.
There have been some great suggestions in this thread about ways to make the barracks better. DsRaider and Wizard1200 both proposed making the barracks reduce maintenance costs of units while garrisoned. Perhaps this could be combined in some way with my earlier proposal to make grain do the same thing? If I knew I could spend one gildar per turn in a 3-grain city to maintain three costless dedicated defenders, I'd be much more inclined towards it. Likewise, a change in unit maintenance--
--would ease the situation somewhat. But I digress.
The real issue is that gildar still rules the application of production. In Fallen Enchantress, it makes sense for players to feel as though they're scrounging for every last cent. Unfortunately, that same scrounging makes upkeep costs quite punishing, and since all non-champion units and many buildings have upkeep costs, cities end up not producing much of either.
Low-granularity resources are a different beast altogether. Many of us are finding that we have a plethora of them, with no means of expenditure. Others--
--find the opposite. The issue here is that, much like food, these resources provide a one-time binary check, with no lasting effect on gameplay. On queuing a unit, do I have sufficient resources in my store? If so, subtract them out and build. I'm not sure there's an easy solution for this, or if it's really much of a problem. It was, however, the rationale by which I originally argued that the gildar-based champion store merchant "should be killed" and replaced with sales that cost the regular number of resources per item. What I can say is that with gildar ruling production and having a minimal number of units due to gildar maintenance costs, I haven't yet spent more than a dozen iron or crystal in a game. Maybe once the AI improves and I start losing troops and needing to upgrade from spears, things will be different. Right now, though, metal and crystal accumulate without limit in my bank, and they're not of much use. Could we use excess metal to "sharpen" the weapons of trained troops, or crystal to "overcharge" the power of a spell? This might provide more of a sink if the AI improvements and the consequent deaths of troops don't place enough of a strain on our special resource stores. Of course, these are just random ideas. I urge you to make your own.
Add a bonus to the baracks so that it pays the wage of one unit within the city. That would make it beneficial from an economic point of view, when one is building up defences.
A similar bonus could be added to walls and castles too.
I loved the fame cost reduction mechanic in MoM; being able to afford large armies shouldnt just be about cities producing taxes. Having multiple ways of making armies affordable makes for interesting choices.
Hmm. Dagger-type weapons
Dagger(s) -> 2.5% armor ignore per unit of Dexterity, 4 piercing damage. +20% crit chance. Crits ignore armor. +4 initiative
(one metal)
Crude Dagger (from turn 0): 1% armor ignore per Dexterity, 2 piercing damage, +2 initiative
(two metal)
Mana Knife -> -10% mana cost for tactical spells, +1 mana per season, +3 mana per kill. 4 meta-damage: modified by Intelligence (as if it were strength). +4 initiative.
(meta damage does not ignore armor, but it doesn't have any resistances either)
(3 crystal)
Mastercraft Dagger -> 2.5% armor ignore per unit of Dexterity, 7 piercing damage, +40% crit chance, crits ignore armor. +4 initiative.
(2 metal)
Zephyr Dagger -> 3% armor ignore per unit of Dexterity, 4 piercing damage, +20% crit chance, crits ignore armor, +8 initiative
(2 crystal)
Nice dagger choices.
This video is out of order (clip wise) but it talks about my own thoughts on this discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6bCISUJg9g
private video
Try now
Early game production options, that's what we want to see! All right. In no particular order and with no particular insight into whether they'd unbalance things...
--A trio of mutually-exclusive buildings, one of which provides +1 metal income (Sovereign's Foundry), another +1 crystal (Sovereign's Sanctum), and a third +2 gildar (Sovereign's Treasury). These could provide the stepping stones for a player in a resource-strapped start to build either the Cleric or the Barracks, or just to start saving some cash for unit upkeep. I don't know whether mutual exclusivity is supportable within the current codebase, though.
-- A farm/construction site that adds an amount of food/production equal to the highest level available on the 8 adjacent squares... or equal to the amount of the square it's built on (since the initial city tile takes up a whole space, any further buildings will attach to adjacent tiles, which have their own values)? Well, it still doesn't fix the later-game empty queue problem, and could potentially unbalance early cities. I'll leave it in for completeness' sake, though.
--To aid in exploration, a site that continually reveals on the map the nearest unclaimed mana node to the city? Could be a pain to code, though.
--A building that reduces by 1 the mana upkeep of all spells cast directly on the city. Since we're talking early game, it would probably come online just as the player has generated enough mana to buff up his city once or twice-- perfect timing.
That's all I've got for now.
Hi Brad thanks for the video, nice to get some sneak peaks of what you guys are coming up with.
OK you asked for suggestions for unique buildings so here's some you may want to consider:
1) Shrine of the avatar - This is a special mana bond that the channeler has made with the land that allows the channeler to make a guardian entity composed of mana to defend the channeler's city in time of need - it's bonded with the channeler and learns with him/her - it's a symbol of the channeler's will made manifest and is immortal (unless the channeler is killed entirely)
The avatar is a special guardian unit that cant leave it's city but it gains xp whenever the channeler gains xp (and vice versa) - the avatar can't sustain injuries either (but it does respawn like champs if 'killed') - the avatar can be given equipment too - as the avatar levels it gives prestige to it's city
2) Curgen's death pit (or whatever) - available to civs that start with death cults trait - allows you to train undead units like zombies, skeletons, liches (levels up with the city and caps on the number of units that can be 'trained' at one time (like darkling villages etc) - cost mana to train but have no maintenance costs
3) Mana nexus - available to civs that start with the shard harvesting trait - mana nexus generates 2 mana per city level and allows you to train elementals and they get +1 level per hooked up shard - the elementals have a mana maintenance cost instead of a gildar maintenance cost - magic items can be sacrificed to the nexus to create mana and crystal
The other traits could get their own building too
Make Eye's of the Eagle be an enchantment for any unit so that magic gets a scouting bonus upon learning it.
I like the idea of Refugee District as a turn one wonder of the realm. It could give city growth and have a very high labor cost. Suddenly the player has to make a decision about whether or not he wants +3 growth and whether or not he has the best production start. A little poker match to start things off.
A one per faction building that costs one grain and gives gold to the city would be a good choice for Capitar. Faction buildings make the most sense as early game options. That way reviewers... ahem... players will see an immediate difference in how the factions play.
Tarth would of course get a gladiator arena. This should add a resource to train 4 Gladiators that cost only Food.
Gilden should get an early mining center that produces iron right away. No reason not to tech up to Weapons at first chance. Plus it should give the a slight production bonus.
Pariden should get a mana resource that increases research. They are always so easy to balance.
Altair needs gold to start recruiting champions. Maybe some shop armor and weapons too.
Yithril should get a production bonus to start capitalizing on that cheap unit cost.
Karavox should start gaining Diplocap and get some powerful defenders.
You can fill in the rest.
OK here's a couple more:
4) artisan's workshop - available with builder's trait - allows you to build golem's - levels up with city so they start off as things like sand golem but then you can build others like steel golem, flesh golem, bone golem, crystal golem, rock golem etc - if you find champ equipment you can give it to the golems - special items can be sacrificed to the artisan's workshop to make special golems - no maintenance for golems
5) merc's camp - available to civs that start with legacy of serrane/adventurer's traits - allows you to recruit merc units, get discounts on hiring champs, when the city levels you get offered a champ at a heavily discounted rate - the quality of the champ offered improves each time the city levels so that a level 5 city is offered a level 9 champ whereas a level 2 city is offered a level 3 champ
You say mutually exclusive but how do you justify that? I don't think players would find it intuitive for having built say a foundary making the sanctum disappear. I also tend to not be in favor of buildings that just give resources (wasn't that the complaint about the merchant earlier)?
I like the idea of a building that reduces the mana upkeep of the city. I'm not sure if that's possible to do without coding or not.
The other problem I have with buildings that provide resources like that is that it tends to result in the issue we're trying to prevent -- players getting in the rut of playing the same way over and over. I am a big advocate that the player should exploit their environemnt -- i.e. : Phase 1: Explore, Phase 2: Expand, phase 3: Exploit and phase 4: Exterminate.
Earlier you mentioned the trasnient resources (use them or lose them). Early on, these are pretty critical to get going:
1. Research
2. Production
We have the Workshop which increases production. I just added in my version a Sage that increases research by +1 plus 10%. The Sage can only be built once.
One idea I've been toying with is the idea of a Sentinel. In the story, the player is on a mission to bring civilization back to the world. There are inhernetly going to be people who will join that cause. Unfortunately, we don't really have such units besides champions. I have a random tech called "Sentinels" which allow you to construct a Sentinel tower in your city and train up to 3 Sentinels (tough units).
I'd almost like to have a turn zero level city improvement that can only be built once but lets the player train 3 of some unit based on the faction. But I fear that might be over complicate the start up experience.
The tower that gives you +1 Air Mana, from citylevelup, has the cityenchantmentcostmultiplier --> Value 0. You can use that to affect mana cost for city spells. You can also make cities immune to enemy spells.
Justification is... complicated. Which is to say, impossible. I was just thinking of a way for players starting without iron or crystal to chain to at least one of your modded buildings. In general, I'm agreed about resource buildings. For clarification, though, my earlier complaints about the merchant wasn't focused the merchant building, but rather on the store screen that sells items directly to your champions.
We players are operating at a disadvantage insofar as we aren't looking at your code and don't really have an idea of how complicated some of our suggestions could be to implement. I haven't bothered yet to check out the XML files, but I'm assuming that the quickest and dirtiest changes will be ones that act on numbers (like resources, XP, or whatever). I'm sure I can come up with some really off-the-wall stuff, but I didn't want to leap in like that, knowing how what appears like an easy change from the player's position can actually be an exceedingly trying change to the codebase.
Liking all of these. The static bonus to research plus the additional multiplier is the best of both worlds; the player will see his 3-5 research points per turn take a nontrivial leap, and see the turns to research completion fall substantially. I do think you can do a lot more to give the feeling that your sovereign is really gathering a following, and both of the last two ideas touch on that.
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