Internal build 0.78 is the first build that the full strategic AI has been checked in. From then on, it’ll be balancing it based on play testing and listening to players discuss how they beat it. But feature wise, the AI can now fully play the game with one exception – we don’t let the AI win via the master quest. But it will try to win through other means if you have it selected.
The next public build will be where we begin the tactical AI implementation. We’ve been writing the APIs for tactical battles for months but we haven’t made use of them yet since we first have to decide how tactical battles are typically fought. That is, knowing the rules is only part of the challenge.
AI Wars: Let it begin. LET IT BEGIN!
To see how effective the AI is at decimating each other, we put a ton of them on a small map. Specifically, small map, 18 players.
I, on the other hand, will be going out of my way to kill them all quickly.
As you read this, please understand, I’m not trying to play the game. I am trying to win the game as efficiently and, truth be told, as cheaply as possible. Any scummy tactic I can find I’m going to use.
It’s a three way battle: FE’s AI vs. My cheese vs. Kael’s design.
So let’s the cheesing begin…
Since I am scum..
So the other players are out there happily exploring the world. Getting gear, probably training pioneers with dreams of expanding their empires.
What they’re really doing is starting my cities for me because while they’re out, I’m going to take their cities.
So…
What should we do about that? What should they do to stop me?
Here’s the data we have to work with:
What sort of evil should we inject into the function above?
Getting ganged up on
To answer some of the things above, we can create some interesting consequences that will help “mix things up”.
For example, I can take advantage of the ideological differences between Kingdoms and Empires. So if I’m a Kingdom and I attack another Kingdom, that’s a big deal. Or I can make it a big deal if I attack early depending on the faction traits. For example, a player with a Diplomatic trait might freak out a lot more if I go and attack someone early on.
I really liked the "-1 : We know what you are doing" In galciv2
In this case it could be " -1: You are a bit too cheesy "
Comments;
1. I would think that only empires close to the AI player would consider preparing for a rush attack.
2. The AI would prepare for it based on the percentage of times that the human player tries it. If the human tries it 1 in 2 games then there is a 50% the AI of the closest empires prepare for it in game 3. IF the Human tried it once in 4 games then in game 5 there is a 25% that the AI prepares for it. Essentially, the more often the human player tries it the more likely the AI will execute a counter.
3. I like the idea of RUSH being a strategic choice. Though, I would say that if you rush one fraction, this action has potential to trigger an merger of two kingdoms or an alliance between two AI's.
Popup (Rush Chance 25%) - The Sovereigns of the (Wraith) and (Trog) Empires annouce their wedding and union of the two empires to protect their peoples in these dangerous times.
4. What if at game start random pair of AIs had a secret alliance that is triggered if a nation of the same fraction (i.e. Kingdom) falls in the first 100 turns.
Why can't the AI cope with this cheese? Seems as though it could, so long as it took the threat as a priority.
I'm taking it for granted that we identify this situation, early tuns, low player city count, etc.
I'm also taking it for granted that the AI being caught out here has made a moderately risky start, and certainly hasn't decided to turtle.
I'm going to give to responses, one is my go at a counter AI and expects the AI to do a lot of work, the other is done through a game play mechanic with simpler AI strategies. I'll do the second one in a different post.
AI - Counter Attack
The counter attack strategy should work here, so long as the AI hasn't been to super risky in it's growth and has no force. This strategy implies that we consider the threat above all others.
There are 2 types of counter forces that the AI might use, the power counter stack, and the speed counter stack. The power counter stack works by being big enough to discourage/defeat enemy attack, the speed counter stack works by being very fast and/or numerous to avoid attack.
Feel free to amend, I don't really know the game that well, and TBH this is not something I've done before. Each Strategy should be able to (I think) run in parallel, although they do spawn each other.
STRATEGY 1 - Counter Stack Machine
1. Identify out next city along his attack vector. This is our frontier city.
1. All small cities begin building scout units, larger cities build shock troops (Move adds? Poison?) - These are heading for the frontier city.
2. 50% of our forces (in power - atk * hp, with a preference for movement adds and casters) need to link up outside the frontier city immediately - The the half closest to him (cap force depending on Power v ETA) - We cannot wait long. This is a power counter stack
3. Remaining 50% of forces need to move towards and start shoring up into the frontier city.
4. If we sight the player at our city borders before our counter stack is ready, the counter needs to add to the city, and we create a few new counter stacks with the fastest movement (this may be a single unit, or a combination of units if they have army move adds), this is the fast counter stack, follow Strategy 3
5. If not, power stack follows Strategy 2
6. Loop step 1, increasing the power stack in size each time, or until threat has diminished.
STRATEGY 2 (power counter stack)
1. Power stack moves directly towards the enemy city, if we encounter the enemy along the way (not in city) we check its power.
1.1. If it's < -20% or move than us, we attack
1.2. If its between +10% and -20% of us, we split 1 to 2 (max 15% or stack power) units off our army as separate fast counter stacks to follow Strategy 3, and the original stack pitches a tent and attacks if it attempts to pass. Loop to step 1
1.3. If its +10% - +30% of us we pitch a tent and attacks if it attempts to pass. Loop to step 1
1.4. If it's more than that, then we split 2 units off our army as separate fast counter stacks to follow Strategy 3, the original stack heads back to the city. (this step in effect waits until strategy 1 produces a bigger force).
2. Once within spot range of city
2.1 Attack (combined) if enemy < -20% power than all units within spot range.
2.2 If its more than that, we split 1 to 2 (max 15% or stack power) units off our army as separate fast counter stacks to follow Strategy 3, the original stack pitches a tent and attacks if it attempts to pass towards city. Loop to step 2.
STRATEGY 3 (fast counter stack)
1. Move in an perpendicular arc (with additional units spread equally over the opposite perpendiculars) away from any enemy stack and towards the nearest enemy city that is along the vector to the center of the enemy territory.
2. If unit is chased and cannot outrun, unit heads directly along the perpendicular away from the frontier city and the enemy unit. Loop to step 1 if he his distance between himself and the chaser becomes greater instead of smaller.
3. Once within spot range of city (or move to the edge if not already)
3.1 Attack (combined) if enemy < -20% power than all units within spot range (combined forces).
3.2 If enemy between -20 and +200% combined forces we have pitch a tent on ouskirts. Loop to step 2.
3.3 If enemy > +200% combined forces re target FURTHER along the vector and loop to step 1.
So is that it? Are we going to hear anymore about the AI Wars: February Edition?
yea, when I work more on it. Doing the AI is my night job at Stardock. The weekends I get to do whatever I want which, this weekend, was helping with sound and music.
"Sounds" like fun!
Even without playing through the AI stuff, I hope you got some good ideas from this list and the forums. It will be interesting to hear more about how this plays out in the future.
My suggestion here:
Cities get +1 militia per city level.
Bell Tower produces larger militia (groups of 5 instead of 3)?
Training Yard produces stronger militia (loses conscript trait perhaps if it has it, maybe gains one random positive trait)
Right now I select neither of those city upgrades, usually pick Mason or Gallows, Apothecary in a high prod city I don't plan on touching.
@Frogboy
Any update on when the rest of 2010 WOM buyers will have access to the beta, I know you said it should be within 2 weeks which was almost 2 weeks ago... can we still expect it this week? Thanks.
I'd second it. If for no other reason than Impulse has been bought/renamed as Gamestop iirc, and I'm not sure where we will be getting our "free Fallen Enchantress" from
You have to log into Stardock to download it when its available to all who get it for free, the beta won't be on Impulse...
https://store.stardock.com/login
FB has mentioned in several threads that he was testing in small maps. Don't recall him ever saying he was testing large.
But maybe things would look different on large. Early game rush might be less of an issue with more space between factions, filled with more tough monsters.
Just curious, how many people play on which sizes? And what sizes do the other devs mostly test on. (fwiw, I've only played large so far)
Hrm. Sorry but that kind of attitude is just wierd, and outright plain sucks.
You embrace the community, post something to your fans on a nice brisky sat morning, asking for them to give you some ideas. Crowdsourcing you're AI with your fans, really great.
Now on monday at lunch, you tell everyone it's OK for them to waste their time on the weekend (and we are not on your payroll btw), but for the moment your not really interested in the AI.
Are you mad, you embrace us, then dismiss us.
Sorry, but I'm new to this fan and forum business, and if this is how you go about it, well I guess I'm not going to give you my time again.
Why do I imagine now Frogboy singing the main-theme for a special edition of FE?
Don't let the door hit you in the neither region on the way out.
For some reason I get the impression of Frogboy singing Annie in the bathroom on the weekend.......Very disturbing
I'll enjoy my next 2 free games, that's for sure.
Forums aren't real-time.
I read through people's feedback and take notes. But I don't necessarily implement them in real-time. I have to sit back and think about how I would go about doing it and talk to others on the team about the best way to implement.
I would assume that most people posting are posting because they enjoy posting. I would hope so anyway.
I know what you mean. I spend 90% of my time at work thinking about mods for this game. Just because they aren't posted, doesn't mean I am not stealing people's ideas that will never make it into the core game.
I don't think it is stealing other's ideas if you making the mods for the love of the game and you are getting no financial reward from them. And I mean, how many ideas are totally original, very first person who expressed them in the history of the world, anyway?
AI question - I wonder if any of the AI's are backstabbers & razers - i.e. they wait for a neighborly realm to be at war with another nation and then strike when their capital city is left unguarded. If a large army comes back to retake the city they raze it before fleeing home or just razes conquered cities - conquer, raze, conquer another city, raze, repeat.....
Yep, I did enjoy it, much more than I enjoy my job. I'm your typical geek needing an outlet.
The things I hate about AI diplomacy is the lack of memory and the rapid changes of attitude.
This only works if you give a crap what other players think of you. There's no real significant economic benefit to caring in ninety nine percent of cases, and if I've already won a rush I am about twice as strong as any other player on the map right off the bat.
So, diplo relations penalties are irrelevant. You can't just tell me I'm supposed to care about which side of the line I'm on, you need to give me significant rewards for it, or penalties for ignoring it. You also need to give me some way to rationalize my border with an AI or I'm going to invade them anyway out of sheer annoyance.
Based on Civ4 MP player reactions to rushes, I'd advise having one to three scouts out and patrolling the most likely invasion path for the nearest empires whether or not they appear strong or hostile. This is just good policy. I'd also teach the AI to rush. Rushing means giving up the ability to defend yourself from a third party's rush. If there's the potential I'll be attacked myself, I'll have to play slightly more defensively.
Every player should start the game with leather armor and basic weapons unlocked. These two item classes are so critical to early warfare that not immediately researching both is a suboptimal strategy. Period. No arguments. If you don't have both and you get rushed, you will lose. It's so blatantly required that it shouldn't be an active element of the early game because it screws up balance.
The last thing you absolutely need to do is add mana cost scaling per model affected by aoe spells. My heroes faceroll through your unit heavy AI armies because I can just fireball or dirge them once or twice for irrelevant amounts of mana and they all die. With level, oh, ten or so magic sov focused on cost reduction and using that special staff, I can get the cost of fireball down to three mana. So you need to make aoe more expensive, because right now it utterly dominates single target damage spells (other than soul burn or whatever) on pretty much all counts.
So it doesn't matter that your AI outbuilds me on troops, because I nuke their armorless minions into the ground. And if they actually attack my cities, a few leather equipped spearmen are more than sufficient to kill them all.
tl;dr
90% of your problem comes from poor unit construction prioritization (armorless units), lack of easy upgrades for units (units should have a big UPGRADE ME button you can hit to change them into something else), and aoe damage spells ripping them to shreds. Fix those balance problems and teach your AI to rush and you'll be there.
Early or repeated indescriminate agressive pushes cause diplomacy penalties. These penalties cause the AI to be more likely to attack you. After conquering someone else your territory is now larger, and you are more spread out. Maybe you are even fighting on multiple fronts. The AI should be able to realize all this currently.
The AI needs to be able to measure local power somehow. Having a large army doesn't help you if it is half a world away. The key to preventing steamrolling is to force players to spend more defending large empires, and to make AIs take advantage of weak local power.
If your territory is twice that of an opponent, they should find an ally and attack you. Unless you have the appropriate diplomacy techs to keep them happy. It should be seen as an imbalance of power and be thwarted. This is how it has always been.
Other historical factors would be borders touching. To properly create the checkerboard allies we see with real empires, there needs to be some serious penalties to touching another's boarders. Once again, this can be offset by researching diplomacy.
Peace should take alot of work. It is so much more complicated than war.
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