First off I just have to stop and apologize to the devs: They must be going stir crazy with all the feedback lately.
That out of the way... Master of Magic was (and arguably still is) a great game. It wasn't balanced in the sense that armies vs spells vs heroes were all equally weighted against each other, it was balanced in that there were mutliple viable methods of beating the game. Even if some of these were broken such as starting the game with stream of life, they weren't overtly stronger than starting with Torin the Chosen, covering the map with undead halfling slingers or doombolting everything with warlocks.
PACING in Master of Magic
Constructed Units were initially better than heroes, leveled passively, had a level maximum and could be trained at higher starting levels with better buildings. What all of this ammounted to is that units had a static inital worth that improved as the game went on, but retained a maximum level of power to prevent this from going out of control. Consequently when armies clashed, they tended to do so at relatively even levels.
Lairs and items always went hand in hand. If you could not clear a lair you could not improve your hero(s). The only lairs that were empty contained resources that would not ammount to an increase in unit strength. The difficulty of lairs and items were also directly linked to one another. Minor battles provided a chance at minor items. Major battles provided a chance at major items. It was controlled to prevent armies that were not already capable of amazing feats from acquiring amazing ammounts of power.
Technology was tied to Buildings in only those cities that contstructed them. If you had a cathedral and war college in one city it meant you could only produce paladins at that city and nowhere else. Additionally buildings took time to construct and pioneers took population, time, and resources setting up new cities. Therefore you could either design one technologically superior city or attempt to cover the map. Neither option was necessarily better than the other, but most importantly both took time.
Research was controlled by holding cities and territory (mana nodes) that grew as your armies became strong enough to clear additional areas, that in turn, tended to be easier as your research expanded to higher level spells.
Magic was controlled by skill levels that grew as your empire acquired new sources and required exponentially more of said resource to grow. Skill determined castable spells per turn, in combat, and was a seperate entity for heroes (that possessed their own). Higher level spells had higher upkeeps, which tended to be researched by the time you had a larger empire and more mana income.
Heroes were initially rare and came in different tiers. You would never obtain a random champion tier hero at the start of the game, and you would only rarely recieve a recruit tier hero in the later stages of the game. Heroes leveled passively, improved passively, took time to build to godliness, and had a level cap. As you had a limit to the number of heroes available you often had to chose to retire a hero (that could later join the enemy) if you wanted a new higher tier hero. New heroes always started at level 1, but you kept your items and could immediately deck them out at least somehwat maintaning a balance between enemy heroes.
All of this is not to say that the game was perfect. Eventually all you did was wander around the map with your 6 heroes of doom, but it took time to get there. As the maps tended to be large it was also near impossible to defend all your cities with a singular stack of units, forcing you to decide if you wanted to split up your heroes or construct units for defense.
The question now is, what is Fallen Enchantress going to do that is BETTER than this game. What is the vision this game is taking? Allow me to summarize what direction I feel this game is headed and areas for improvement.
This is not what the game is currently, just where it seems to be heading.
PACING in Fallen Enchantress
Constructed Units improve with technology to possess better armor ratings, better attack, and more unique traits and are on par with champions of an equal level.
Problems with this current setup: Empires that fall behind in technology are very unlikely to be able to compete, even if by a single tech. Units are highly unlikely under this system to ever acquire levels that compare to a static adventuring group, making fighting battles only viable with a 'stack of doom'
Possible Solutions:
1. Constructed units recieve passive xp, have a level cap, and are trainable at (or close to) level cap later in the game, encouraging same level army clashes.
2. Unit Technoloy is:
A: Controlled by buildings
B: Achievable via different paths (such as spell enchantments, global morale, or simply more income)
C: Limiting to the number of 'teched up' units fieldable at once
Lairs and items are better balanced with a risk and reward mechanic, providing minor gear for minor victories and major gear for major victories.
Problems with this current setup: There are limited 'goodie huts' scattered around the world making properly equipped heroes a roll of the dice. Eventually these huts become worthless as you acquire better gear from other sources.
1. Champions start with appropriate, non-adjustable gear. What I mean is that if I hire a mage, he has clothes (and always clothes), an assassin, leathers, and a warrior, hides. Additionally they should start with appropriate weapons (staff, dagger,bow,spear, etc). Initially champions do not start out naked and are useful out the door but due to not being able to change weapons/armor do not advance at a rediculous rate.
2. Goodie huts (and other monsters) have a chance to drop upgradable gear pieces, that can be used to improve damage, defense, stats or whathaveyou a number of times based on current tech/magic level.
Research gets brought in line to correctly finish up the tech tree by the time the game is finished, allow for refinements to be researched, and maybe expand upon some of the available research options.
Problems with this current setup: The refinement technologies prevent the game from coming to a definitive halt, are too numerous, spread out oddly, and have imbalanced effects. The current method of research seems out of sync with itself (do I want to research armor techs from the warfare tree or do I want to research blacksmithing from the civics tree - wait what?) and doesn't lend much to the idea of specializing in any one tree.
1. Remove refinement techs entirely or make them one singular tech with numerous small bonuses and an at increasing cost that requires -all- techs be researched first.
2. Research is:
A: Reduced to a single tech tree containing mutliple branches and links in appropriate places
B: Split into two trees (warfare and magic) that affect pacing by an equal ammount (though in different ways) and do not require one or the other to advance, but are capable of synergizing with each other in a manner that is balanced with researching one path exclusively.
C: A giant pinata that derek and brad kick until candy falls out ..
Magic is adjusted so that the production values are of multiples much higher than they are currently (allowing for maintainance of enchantments) and starts initially higher or with lower cast ammounts for mage soveriegns/champions. Casters have a limit to mana pool during combat based on intelligence and mana is a shared empire resource. Spellcasters use their own skill trats to determine castable spells.
Problems with this current setup: There is no limitation to the number of overworld spells that can be cast other than the number of capable mages. Mages that base their spells on their own traits are just as likely to imbalance the game as a warrior with an uber blade.
1. Casters require the spell cost divided by their mana limit (possibly modified by buildings) number of turns to cast the spell, recieve and appropriate ammount of xp after casting ths spell and either
A: Must remain stationary
B: Consume their combat mana limit
2. Spells are unlocked (or reduced in mana consumption) via research
Champions are increased in rarity, gaurded by armies and/or found via quests, are initially balanced with trained units/armies and contain a much more varied and more controlled random set of trats on level up. Injuries are better balanced to be hindering but not devastating. Moves and tactical moves are adjusted to better fit the game mechanics.
Problems with this current setup: There are limited champions throughout the game world but an unlimited roster, unfairly biasing towards empires that rush across the map. Regardless of what starting point champions have versus other units, the ability to infinately level is game-breaking, especially on larger maps, meaning champion stacks of doom will still be the optimal route. Even if the traits are expanded to cover a more controlled range of abilities, it still means that luck is largely contributing to the success or failure of the hero. Additionally heroes that are designed from a random generic pool of traits are not memorable.
1. Provide a more balanced distribution of champions by either
A: Imposing a Limit to the number of hired champions
B: Allowing a building/unit/someothermechanic to grant a chance to find a champion based on how many are currently employed
C: Allow a set of unique quests per faction to acquire new champions
2. Impose a (hard or soft) level cap on champions. This can be done in two different ways:
A: The level cap is the same as regular units, and each champion is roughly as strong as 1-2 equally leveled and equipped trained units
B: The level cap is higher than regular units and each champion is as strong as 2-3 level capped and equally equipped units, but if another equally leveled champion is in the opposing army, the morale boosts army units back to a value as listed in A.
3. Champions are all unique and possess their own rate of stat increases per level and at certain levels get to choose a trait that boosts what they are designed to do even better. There are no random draws and stats improve automatically. Traits are typically unique abilities rather than stat increases. -ALL- champions addtionally provide a 'morale' boost to the regular units of the army they are in that does not stack with other champions and is based upon their level. The champion is fully capable of taking any actions he/she would normally be able to at their full strength.
Lordy!!
Now then, the question comes down to:
How to make this better than Master of Magic?
The end game of master of magic was never balanced. After your heroes achieved godlike status (yes that was actually what the level was called) and had a rediculous plethora of items equipped there was nary that could stop them. Additionally there were only a few viable optioins in master of magic to compete with each other.
Fallen enchantress can be better by
1. Making mutliple viable balanced routes to win the game all with a unique feel to them.
I want to be able to create a 'quick' 'tiny' faction that focuses on ranged units and have just as much a challenge going against a strong magic wielding faction focusing on champions. Caster soveriegns should not only be viable but competitive with melee and ranged. Standing armies and cities sprawls should be competitive with using summoned creatures casting spells from my single tower of doom.
2. Making tactical combats fun and varied using abilities from personally crafted units
Let me enter a forest square filled with impassable oaks and rough foilage, and jeer at the enemy using my archers with 'snipe' to bypass obstacle bonuses and my footmen with 'tireless' that ignore terrain penalties. Or let me stand my guardian unit in the middle of my city walls unnafected by the wall of fire because of his flame armor and fire resistance trait.
3. Making the world vibrant and alive
Create zones of control for various monster 'factions' that spawn in units far from civilized areas and slowly creep towards your empire as you gain confidence in your expansion. I love the neutral monster faction mechanic! Let's see more of these. Spread out tough monters farther away from player spawn points. Make me deal with the wolves and bandits before braving the shrill and fire elemental lairs.
4. Making the AI react to your victory (idea stolen from sean3w ^^
When you are coming close to reaching the goal line the computer players or the game world should react accordingly. As you ally with like-minded factions, neighboring factions might ally against you, but might be just as likely to attempt an alliance victory of their own (hey you aren't attacking them now right?). If you are attempting to cast the spell of mastery the AI needs to declare war and hunt out your shards to cancel the spell. If the victory conditions are meant to be unique, make the resulting responses to these victory types unique as well.
There are probably many more things that can be done, but the game in it's current state does not feel close to being ready. If this is at 77% I am worried =x
I suppose at the end of all of this I really want to know the 'vision' of fallen enchantress: What did you intend it to be?
Good stuff in OP
If people really like some of the endgame stuff I might be able to make a mod for it after release. There is a strategic curtain between what the devs are going to use and what doesn't fit with their vision. I don't want to make too many promises, but after I finish Ivory Towers and all the modular content mods for that I will definitely start thinking about how to best implement this stuff if it isn't part of the release.
If we get some event triggers for questing other than quest locations and population (that is all we currently have) I could do all of what I posted. I would really just need techs and buildings to be able to start a quest. I can't imagine the finished product will have a very good random event function if they don't at least add those two. I still have some hope, though, that Derek is already planning on most of this for release. But he can't tell us what he is planning because of legal crap. Or maybe he is just evil?
I love reading these posts, especially posts by the OP whom I have grown to respect for his great analytical skills. I have yet to play the beta, so I can't comment, but if they include anything contained in any of these well thought out and concluded posts I am excited.
Magic section 2
There will almost certainly be more magic put in the meager books we currently have. Were you suggesting that all spells should be researched? That would reward researchers with too many spells compared to warfare and Magic Tree purists. Adding maybe 50 new spells to the tree by release is a must in my book. There are so many unrealized spellbooks to be made.
Exactly. Some spells ought to be researched, some learned from fellow champions, some traded for(?), some found in quests, etc. Same with building designs. Same with character traits.
Spells I can see being researched or traded (if some spells were kingdom specific.) that would be reasonable, but building designs or character traits no. It would be possible to take control of enemy cities and they have kingdom specific buildings, but this won't grant you the ability to build their buildings because they're kingdom specific.
Addressing both of these, I didn't neccessarily imply that all spells require research, just that some of the more badass abilities required unlocking to prevent the balance of caster characters from outpacing the rest of the game. And I certaintly wasn't implying that a new research tree be implemented for spells, lord knows I'm against adding another!
mqpiffle answered my feelings on the matter fairly well. I hadn't thought of trading spells though.
I also indicated that spells could simply have their mana reduced as you researched further along the appropriate tech tree. So in that way, perhaps your mage has fireball in his spellbook but lacks the (Intellegence restricted combat pool) to cast the spell. It will also consume a much larger portion of his usable mana once he can. Research could also do things like boost spell effects or reduced maintenance.
The whole idea is to tie everything into the mechanic they plan to use to pace the game - in this case, it appears to be research.
That would be a logical way to do it. To me, it makes sense to need to do research into magical abilities from a functional and a logical perspective. There are currently only a few spells in the Magic Tree. I would expect many many more in the coming months. I am actually half-planning a mod that addresses the lack of interest I have in the current research and path systems. I hope that the devs vision is as ours, but it's nice to have a backup plan.
Off Topic: Did you all read that Multiplayer is being implemented and then added after release? It gives me so much more hope for this game's popularity.
Yes! This is a great example of how each possible play style should be supported and viable as a route to victory. What a boost in replayability, being able to beat the game through an adventure track, researching, magic, conquest, and diplomacy. Indeed, while the best magics should only be available to those heavily pursuing the magic track, there should be some unique magic obtainable through each of the other routes:
-Spells found through quests/unlocking map features such as shards.
-Spells researched.
-New spells formulated and old ones refined through the deep pursuit of magic.
-Unique spells pillaged through conquest of towns with certain buildings; unique spells pillaged by wiping out monster/neutral zones, such as the wild lands.
-Spells able to be traded through diplomacy, including unique spells only known by certain societies, races, and classes of sovereigns.
On champions:
One of the things that bugs me is how they are often harvested like a map resource. This is dull. I've been playing some Distant Worlds lately and one of the things I really like about that game is how characters (think champions) are generated during the course of gameplay. So, for example, if you have a successful fleet action, an Admiral character might appear in your fleet.
Maybe this would be a good idea for champs in FE? So, for example, if you win a battle with regular units, a champion might appear from your spearmen unit or what-have-you? This would be a good way to ensure that every player has at least a chance of getting some additional champs during the course of the game.
Just an idea.
This has been said many times. But apparently this kind of feedback is - and I quote - "not going to even be considered." On the other hand, if this design will raise a few reviewers' eyebrows, you'll get to say: "I told them so!!!" That may be worth it, but you be the judge.
Well you can get heroes from quests. I think there just needs to be more quests with hero rewards to give us some better flavor.
This depends on if you classify the mechanic of harvesting champions as "balance" or a fundamental change from my reading of the Frog's posts in that thread.
Excellent points.
The more I play the beta, the more I start to that perhaps eliminating the separate tech trees would be a good idea. Let refinement techs lead to magic and warfare, warfare help advance your structures, and magic enchant your civilization. Having them separate as they are now, in which it is impossible to pursue one (and specialize your research), is pointless. Rogdan's idea of making two tech trees, magic and warfare, is a good one. But I would actually rename them and have the specialize between magic and non-magic technologies. This split is a little similar to the Empires and Kingdoms theme. A Magic society would rely on a few specialists and their power to create their wonders, while a non-magic civilization would rely on the common man, iron, and hard work. This could create some nice strategies, mixing and matching your preferred techs.
I also agree that the mad dash to discover champions, as well as good huts, is a little weak and unbalanced. Unlocking heroes through high levels could be one way to get them. But I really like the idea of unlocking heroes through technologies. NOT a single technology branch that gives you heroes. But perhaps researching mining gives you a champion that has a war hammer and gives money (or even better, you can chose his background and decide which one). Perhaps researching channeling gives you a mage hero. Or there could be several points on the tech tree where, depending on which tech you research first, you get a hero for it, and all of the tech-heroes of that level are locked out until the next tier.
Just some ideas. Great discussion, OP.
We can be pretty sure there will be no change to how we get heroes. There are two ways: find them and recruiting with gold, completing a quest that has one as a reward. Within that framework I would say just give the little castle or fort the heroes seem to stationed at a huge bonus to the hero so he or she can't just be murdered by an opposing faction. Killing neutral heroes is unbalanced right now. Heroes from quests is more interesting to me personally, but there is of course room for both.
The problem I have is that recruiting heroes only has 5 techs and they are not expensive til the last one. Heroes should require a greater opportunity cost in research.
Personally, my love of MOM had nothing to do with balance. It had everything to do with unique heroes that could be leveled up in an interesting way, had lots of different abilities and tons of customization through spells, dungeons/nodes spoils etc. Hero stats were also randomized, so that upper tier heroes wouldn't play out the same way each game. They didn't need a fancy splash screen with a background to give them personality, it was innate. You were excited when Summon Champion was finished casting. You were excited to see the first champion you could hire (except the Dwarf, he always sucked!) You were excited to see the level up screen come up.
In FE, generally speaking, there are no heroes beyond sovereigns. Champions are simply tools with stats and equipment slots. There isn't anything memorable about them that I would carry into a new game. I'm not asking for champions to become game breaking or summoned by spells. I just want a few heroes in the game to look forward to.
As for any inevitable and deserved nostalgia based criticism, I would like to point out that if Stardock ultimately wants to create a spiritual successor to MOM, it has a lot to learn from it as well. MOM's chief strength was replayability. For me, that was because of heroes.
Edit: Also wanted to say fantastic job to the OP and great repliers. I realize the success of FE comes from many different areas and I don't want you to think I don't appreciate that. Just wanted to share on one that is important to me as a previous MOM player.
Agree with most of points made.
Different trees are OK, it worked fine in GalCiv2.
Buildings as requirement for units - I very much agree.
Now you begin to understand what Steve Barcia had achieved so long ago and how hard it was.
He did way more magic that could fit into a 320x200 display.
Designers are still trying to copy those games and just FAIL.
MOM with SD level AI....is what I want
Anyone would be thrilled to make a single game that spans the amount of time the Simtex group's did.
Now imagine that times 3!
MoM was not balanced, however it was a fun sandbox.
This is what I want. Like the cave in WoM where you could help the paladin from bandits or take his sword.
I agree.
After playing a few hours of FE demo, my quick negative comments about the game would be:
- The pacing: The game is so long that it does not hook me up. Come on, it takes at least 6 turns to make a simple spearmen. This is one of the reason why multi-player games are unplayable.
- Derived stats: There is too much stats including stat that deviate from others. If I have a spell that raise my strength by 3 points, I have no idea of what is the impact of the boost on the battle.
- Terrain: It's cool that terrain now have income, but it's just ridiculous that barren terrain cannot be settled. If forces the players to be in specific parts of the map like in War of magic.
I think the best solution is the "do it yourself". As always, I intend to make the Master of Magic MOD if it is possible to modify the game in order to add or remove gameplay features. I don't simply want a re-themed elemental. WOM XML had simply no flexibility, I hope this is not the case of FE. If I had my own development team, I would have created a MOM game that is much more simplified to make the game easier to play and more accessible, but I don't think it will ever happen.
For now, I'll just analyze the XML, see if the interface can be hacked, and wait for the full game to be released in order to start the tests.
I don't mind the long-ish build times, at least for the early part of the game 'phase 1'.
In Civ it could take 6 turns or longer to build a spearman ... and I think a similar notion held true in MoM. Unit times are not always fast. I think what you mean though, is that its turn 400 and I'm just now exiting the early game (getting into the 'power' part of the game).
Personally I don't mind wandering the game doing random quests and killing random monsters ... as for me that is a large part of what 'fun' IS in a fantasy game.
Yes, we don't get to see 4 heroes face off 4000 thralls or anything (at least on normal), and the size of armies is fairly small ... which leads to a single fireball killing most of any enemy army (whereas a truly large army would be the size of 10 fireballs).
-> as a side note, as much as I "LIKE" AOE spells doing damage*#of enemies, its just really hard to balance magic vs melee. It was easy(er) to do in FFH2 I think because the game was so abstract that you couldn't do 'real' magic, and-> then there was the pillar of fire ...
-> Hmm, if we scaled down stats with loss of HP (not 1:1 but maybe 1:3)-> including attack and defense ... then we could have spells only cause a Max % of damage, leaving mage's tiny staves (or their body guards) to knock in the heads of the weakened army.
Anyways, yes (just like in MoM or AoW:SM or Kings Bounty, or any other turn based tactical fantasy game) we don't get to see a level of large-scale realism in our armies, but I think that makes up for itself with the sense of adventure, the levelling up, the really cool items, and the magic.
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