Warning: Wall of Text incoming.Yesterday I played a nice long stretch of Fallen Enchantress and I paid particular attention to the City Building aspect. War of Magic's City Building was decent enough, however I feel that Fallen Enchantress really does deserve a better system all-round. I've read through a few threads and it seems I'm not the only person who thinks this.In the interest of improving this aspect of the game, I thought we should come to some kind of consensus on what we like, and what we don't like, about the current system and what we think would be more fun.I'll compare Elemental to Civilization IV - my favourite TBS Game - to highlight my personal largest issue.My least favourite moment in Civ IV (I was going to put CIV as the abbreviation, but it just comes out as Civ in captials) is when the game has progressed to the point where my City level decisions are no longer needed.After this moment, I'm going through the motions - my plans have come together, and my well oiled machine just hums along to victory. I don't pay attention to my resources, because I don't have to, and I don't really care what is built in each City - I just run through the list one item after another until each City has one of everything, then they just churn out the most cost effective unit.Initially in Civ IV, each time you need to select something you have to think about it."Do I need Animal Husbandry now?", "Should I go straight for Military Units, or should I throw a few more Scounts out?", "Where do I need my roads?", "Are my improvements what they need to be?", etc. This, to me, is the really fun part - actually building my Civilization. The middle game is my favourite part - right around the Medieval ages - where I'm trying to walk the line between advancing my military tech to keep me alive, while advancing my civ tech to keep my cities growing. Cities exchange hands fast and loose, Religion spreads like wildfire, backstabbing occurs; it's brilliant. My City level decisions for each City are the difference between Victory and Loss."What are the odds of this City being attacked? Do they need more defensive units, more defensive structures? Can I risk this City and have it build a Research Increasing building to get me to the next Military Tech? What are their Morale, and how is it effecting the Cities production?"This all changes when I'm engaged in the eventual End Game War that errupts, and so my brains turns off - I'm just throwing stacks of Units around until I've won the game.In Fallen Enchantress, I've arrived at the point of not caring what decisions I'm making at a City Level at around my 4th City - which is about 3-ish hours in.I've got everything I can currently build in each City, and they're now just firing off the most cost effective units so I can throw them at the A.I. player I'm at war with. When I capture a City, I'm just running through the list to make sure it has one of everything before it reverts to building the most cost effective unit for my war machine. When my research enables a new building, each City haults production and builds the new building, and then reverts back to making units.The only decision I'm making honestly now is "Which City does my horde attack next?".This, to me, is a fairly large scale issue, and is comprised of several smaller issues.Although things like Unrest and such are in place, I couldn't honestly tell you what mine are - they've had seemingly zero impact upon my game plan so far. Declaring War on three factions at once and sending an unending number of troops to their death has seemingly had no impact upon my people. And I thought I was the bastard here.I've also not altered Taxes as I've been swimming in Gildar for a while now, and as a result I've never - ever - viewed the Details screen for my Cities. They're just these 'things' that exist that enable me to make military units and buildings.I'd go as far to say if you didn't tell me Taxes and Unrest where in the game, I'd never know they were here.Population growth also seems to be a none issue. I've never seen the number of people in my Cities drop to a number I'd register as "low", nor has there been any indication that a lowering population has had an impact, and so I continue to spam units. Nothing builds slower, nothing researches slower, I don't seem to get less Gildar per turn - what the hell do these people do? If there are effects in play here, they're far too subtle.Building Placement is something I actually really like - it's far better than Civ IV's Improvement System or how the Cities just automatically expand - however it serves no purpose. 3-ish hours in, I just drop the building in the closest slot to where my mouse cursor is so I can get on with it. This feels like a big wasted opportunity. Placement really does need to do... something!Buildings seem to give too many bonuses, or too large a bonus per building. I've barely gone half way through the Civ and a third of the way through the Military trees, and my Cities are now just these never ending fountains of Gildar and Troops. I feel there is simply no decision making in selecting which Buildings to build, or in which order to do so, after your first 2 cities.Because I have seemingly unlimited troops and Gildar coming from my cities, I haven't surpassed basic Military tech. I haven't researched Black Smithing yet, and yet my armies are walking across the map wiping everything out on sheer numbers alone.Loose 4 units in a battle? Press End Turn once or twice, and I have 4 more. As such, I haven't even looked at the resource area of the game yet - I have no idea what my cities are making, nor what they could be making, and I don't feel the need to as it could only serve to make my campaign of terror only more unstoppable.This will sound ridiculous, but I feel Cities are... I don't know... too over-powered? They make too much money, too many people and produce too many powerful buildings without consequence. I didn't deliberately chose the "Warfare" path to Victory - I always go for the Religious victory in Civ IV - it's just the path I feel the game has pushed me into. If I wasn't churning out Units, my Cities would be idle. If I have 50 basic units, what am I to do with them if not war?Anyway, that's my rant. I look forward to reading other peoples thoughts and possible suggestions.
Amen to that, Kohan is a king amongst serfs!
A few thoughts about the current discussion though:
- High building maintenance costs are NOT fun. It is no fun at all to research a tech which gives a new building and then realise that it doesn't make sense to build it in any of your cities.
- Being able to build all buildings in all cities is equally no fun.
- Therefore buildings need to have a rarity of some sort but not a type of rarity which makes them not worth building (which high maintenance can do).
The obvious way to ensure rarity is to make building time and cost sufficient to make you think twice before just queuing up all buildings. However this requires that there is some other demand on your cities build queues, presumably the need to build military units. The whole thing needs to be tautly balanced so that queuing buildings instead of military makes one worry a bit about your current survival but at the same time the buildings need to add enough to your future wealth that you are willing to take the gamble that you can hold off your enemies long enough to benefit from the building and eventually build a stronger military.
Interestingly this is one of the reasons Kohan 1 (KIS and KAG) is such a brilliant game. There is a clear and big tradeoff between spending your valuable gold and free slots on building income producing buildings or resource producing buildings (and the military which feed off those resources). This trade off is supported by the balance between defence (which benefits from city militia and re-supply) and offence (which can choose where to strike and guarantee a short term military advantage over an enemy who is focusing on economy), plus key mechanics such as the time to heal up new/damaged units, fog of war, neutral cities/lairs, etc. This full combination of features is necessary to make Kohan grea.
FE is a different game with different mechanics but somehow it needs the same taut balance between current military strength and future economic growth. Whether FE can pull it off remains to be seen.
5-10 Gildar is not alot of money to take away per turn. That may change, but right now I am getting 50-100 Gildar per turn. Food also increases gold so it will pay for itself eventually. As a midgame building it would be a nice choice to get this kind of a boost to a city that you need to level, but there is not enough grain. You should think of 2 gildar per turn as on extra unit. How many extra units is a granary worth? The answer is more than 5 so you should build it in some cases.
Please, please, do not let Civ roads make it into this game. They end up looking like a disgusting brown mess of spaghetti...
Another concept to explore is to not allow the player to build any of the buildings but allow the city and its resources therein dictate what it should build. Realistically, why would a merchant setup shop where there is no gold to be had, for instance.
Mind you, this isn't something I think is ideal, but worth mentioning nonetheless.
I actually quite like the idea of a capital-only empire with many different variations of outposts with outposts only allowed to build certain types of buildings (and specialized at that) based on what resources it claims.
I agree to a point, or with changes to the current system.
The thing we'd be missing in a one-city game are the additional production queues multiple cities offer. My suggestion for this would be that additional production queues could be opened up through research and/or building choices.
I think, though, that having, on average, and depending on map size, 3 - 5 cities to manage in a single game wouldn't be terrible. I often find city management in games like Civ, starting in the mid-game, to be uninteresting and repetitive.
The specialized outpost idea is a good one and very much worth considering. In fact how these are handled could really set FE apart from other games in the genre.
Pardon, but it is not worth mentioning, because it is a bad idea,
Sure, I can have the game play itself, but then I as a player am fairly meaningless.
My 2c on city building:
I agree with much of the OP and first posters said. City building is incredibly boring right now, and it need not be.
I think the key to fixing this are the following ideas:
1. Relating the city to the terrain
At the moment, cities are too generic, and the initial placement seems to matter very little. The key factor is closeness to the 'special' resources, iron, horses, shards, etc, but it seems to matter quite little whether you are close to rivers, mountains, forest, hills, etc.
More buildings like the watermill, etc are probably the key here. But buildings should relate specifically to where they are on the map. For example, the lumber mill could provide +3 Production per wood square that it is next to. This means that it could provide up to +21 if surrounded on 7 sides by forests. This makes the actual POSITION relative to terrain quite an important decision, and the decision about where to build in the first place a bit more interesting. Combined with a range of buildings that have such interactions possible (fishing village near water tiles, water mill near river, blacksmith within x tiles of iron mine or hills, Windmill on a hill, garden near x clear plains tiles, bakery next to the granary bonus, etc.
These kind of bonuses would link the placement of a city to a much more complex set of decisions about terrain, and make the decisions about where to build things a lot more interesting.
Combine with idea #2...
2. Having slots, or some internal structure of the city that matters in the game
It has been suggested in the thread that having a limited number of slots might be better, since it forces CHOICE. Indeed, there is something in that. However, to turn this into a 'soft limit', the other way of handling it is to have some privileged positions, and then adding costs to add more buildings. For example, imagine that you have a central 'town' square, and that each of the 4 cardinal directions building spots are 'free' to build on, but that after that, the cost of building went up by an amount (say, 1 Gildar per turn) per squares distant from the center. This simulates the need for people to communicate (talk and travel) in a town, and will tend to drive roughly square / circular shapes. You can still do a long snaky town if you want, but it will cost more, and would only be done for a good reason. It also means that you will have increasingly hard choices about which buildings to build close to the town center, and whether to build more after a point, since the costs will escalate.
If you combine #1 and #2, you get some quite difficult choices to make, and it will require some real thinking to decide how to develop a town / towns.
The other idea suggested here that I like is the one to link the production of heroes to the buildings in a city.
Cheers
Hello, I am just posting here to say that city building definitely needs changes. Some of the ideas in this thread are quite good. I liked both the building slots, outpost towns and the ideas about specialising your capital city.
This was my first post ever. If any developer is reading this, I would just like you to note that I am posting here (usually when I never post) to say that I feel very strongly about this. City Building is bland and something should be done about this.
Interesting ideas in here. For me the current cities are not that bad because mostly all mechanics are in and they only need adjusting.
1. Levelling up is cool: Just make the level up buildings preconditions to other buildings in the tree, so that a path is decided.
2. Unrest: As it it it's the difference between good and excellent, make it a difference between bad and good. Include your race, factions and diplomatic actions into the unrest calculation (Fallen don't like kingdom, kingdom don't like war, No one likes loosing units etc...)
3. The buildings that produce something if the build queue is empty should depend on the city production (like trade goods in MOM)...
4. Include some more buildings that actually only make sense in some circumstances: a war school that only works good if you have a champion stationed with some training traits, terrain dependent buildings and so on
Adjust the gildars so you'll need some cities to produce money and only some may build troops.
Thats because its bugged... https://forums.elementalgame.com/416149 I did some research on it
I think part of the problem is a lack of Civ IV/FFH-style events. Makes things a little too deterministic. Sometimes FFH events changed how you'd do something.
Also, it might be possible the slow tech speed is part of the problem here as well in terms of feel.
I think so and they already put a change into the changelog for 0.76 so we'll able to test this assumption.
I'm not really sure why people think Civ 4/FFH was so great for city building... I ended up making the same cookie cutter cities and taking the same wonders each game I played.
speaking of paths. back in 0.75, i had a hero who picked path of governor... a few lvls later, he gets to pick path of warrior?
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