I find it really intresting that no one really talks about the costs of the individual units.
Like. how cheap the tec support ships are in metal and crystal compared to the other races.
or how the destra is 20 crystal and 25 credits more expensive than a kodiak.
or how the defence vessel is 5 crystal and 15 credits cheaper than a flack frig.
usually, its, this ability is overpowered, or, this ability needs help. or phase missles. we do a lot of talking about phase missles. or armor types, but, the actual costs, fleet supply and dps of units, tends to be ignored.
thoughts?
Oh come on Pb, I don't know where you've been but you will find these things if you look for it. While cost itself is not a very common argument, fleet supply and DPS have often been argued about, and you'll find some in depth cost benefit analysis charts on these forums if you look around. To be sure there are some outliers, like Kanraks XP or the cost of the domina, but most of these cost differences are small enough not to have a significant impact on the game.
well ya. i was talking about cost vs fleet supply, and cost vs dps, instead of fleet supply vs dps.
and in the case of the support cruisers, effectiveness vs cost.
When I tested which HC was the best, I ran two test based on cost and fleet supply.
TEC had the best un-upgraded HC for both cost and fleet supply.
With full upgrades Advent had the best HC for both cost and fleet supply.
Well TEC are usually the underdogs especially when it gets to the late game so the descrease in cost is kinda of nessecary when it comes to that since their main strength is in numbers by then.
Depends on too many variables.
Pbhead you can decimate a more expensive (fleet supply) fleet of Crusaders with illuminators, halcyons (bombers) and repulse from guardians. So your answer to cost vs effectiveness is lrf is more cost effect than HC and utility cruisers are not cost effective in any way even when they have offensive abilities like the Hoshiko. It is also true the most cost effect Utility cruiser in terms of numbers is the guardian because 1 will guard an entire fleet with its shield projection and having 2 is more than enough for repulse and shield projection independently.
Do your math again...HCs are actually some of the most cost effective ships in the game...the main economic drawback of HCs is actually their long construction times, which makes it harder to replenish quickly...if time is on your side, you will spend less resources amassing HCs than illuminators...
What are these mythical discussions you speak of???
Riddle- Don't you think its a bit disingenuous to compare the effectiveness of a unit (crusaders) vs the very things made to counter it (Bombers & repulse). Thats like saying an Apache w/ Hellfire Rockets is more effective than an Abrams Tank. Ummm Of Course it is, the Hellfire Apache is specifically designed to counter all kinds of tanks. The true test is tank A vs Tank B or in this case Crusader vs Kodiak vs Skarovas. Also, Why would your analysis assume 1 fleet of a single unit and another fleet of mixed units. A mixed unit fleet will almost always be more effective.
=Dumb noobs, -- you wanted cost effectiveness and i gave it to you. Bring your crusaders and see if you can build enough of them to counter hundreds of illums and 5 halcyon carriers with repulse. You think you can counter them when your fleet is constrained by fleet supply? Try using your brains for once than just uttering nonense about what counters what. Your better off with cheaper units unless you've got a godlike economy to build enough hcs in enough time to counter illum spaming with bombers.
The reason you can mix things up is because you are not constrained by fleet supply. HCs massed quickly enough can destroy Long range frigates but there numbers better be damn good otherwise they won't even get close to the illums if repulse is in play. So whats cost effect at the end of the day- the fleet that wins or looses? No point in a costly investment that dies.
Modders and noobs you have your answer- if you disagree then go prove it on the battlefield. I only use HCs when im so cork sure i can build 80 plus with a godlike economy and mix it up Supported with trinity and flak- that is f* ace. Goes as low as including 1 or 2 scouts in a fleet so you don't jump into mines.
Economics and cost effectiveness is fleet composition. You can't put it in the context of 1v1--- illum vs crusaders. That's just stupid in a sins universe where many factors come into play.
One of the reasons why I enjoy sins so much is that when a player changes the fleet composition new avenues of stratagem are open. Though these strategies are usually for those of us who can micro and macro while doing so….and thus the problem with comparing the fleet supply to cost is that rarely is the factor of micro and fleet synergy taken to effect. You can have a counter fleet to your opponents but depending on the gestalt of the map (Planet locations, defense, culture, support via pacts/trade, phase lanes) you can still easily lose. So in the end it isn’t necessarily the cost vs supply that’s the issue but how you interact with the other opponents.
This is some philosophical crap that sounds good but dwells into the realm of strategy over cost and balance which is what this discussion is all about-wait. The argument you are now churning in your brain to tell me strategy determines cost is also crap because thats obvious. we are trying to decipher the denominators first to the whole sum which is strategy.
And Qu4r said "LET THERE BE TROLLING"...so He made a 2nd account and called it RiddleKing...and for a while, the RiddleKing trolled the forums with ease, fooling the noobs and scrubs into thinking he was a different person...but then the RiddleKing regressed into the habits of Qu4r, and the noobs and scrubs were fooled no more...
But the forums saw this as a good thing, because the entertainment provided by the Qu4r's increased tenfold, and all saw that it was for the better...
Obviously something was lost between the transfer of data from my head to the forum to yours (Riddleking) so allow me to politely reiterate to purge the confusion that I assume you are currently experiencing dear sir, first my point upon the debate of cost to supply is that it is a relative mute point as I needs to encompass how a ships synergize with the fleet. To use an example the Vasari Ravastra Skirmisher cost nearly twice that of the advent counterpart however it’s ability to heal itself gives it a position in the Vasari fleet where there will be an the absence of their carrier. I could care less if a heavy cruiser cost only four fleet supply and the amount of a light frigate if it didn’t synergize with the rest of the fleet it’s beyond useless which brings back to the original point, these arguments are nothing more than muttering in the wind unless there is more data for there is never a mono fleet composition in sins and a single post cannot contain near infinite possibility that exist in a game that is purely situational.
lol, that is actually pretty funny. I haven't been around long enough to know, but that post is worth half a karma, so consider this an early payment.
There's no win scenario here. Advent tier 0 disciple spam is more efficient at killing Skirmishers with overwhelming numbers due to unit cost and supply cost. Its why you shouldn't invest skirmishers and choose a more effective assailant.
We could go on all day about your strategies but they seem to be paper based. I have played enough lan parties to know i can win neutrals if my opponent sends skirmishers and i send disciples. Cost effective fleets always win. Jiba jaba about confusion when i base my thinking on a number system while you look at abilities, philosophical rambling and personal preferences is too funny. Ever stop to wonder what happens when steal antimatter turns on and you loose your regeneration abilities and anti-matter disrupt abilities pureley based on a number system where more desciples are overwhelming you.
My official advice to you is to keep talking and someday you'll say something intelligent because currently i'm getting phone calls from your school saying there missing an idiot.
I haven't played Sins of a Solar Empire yet, however I can answer the question about units cost and balance.
When an RTS game comes out, it is always pretty well-balanced in skirmish matches against the AI or during the campaign. RTSes are also pretty balanced in low-average levels of online multiplayer experience. However, when it reaches the higher/elite levels of multiplayer gameplay, the super experienced players always and always find a supreme strategy, according to which 50%-70%-90% of the units are completely useless, cost-inneffective, or taking too much time to build. Their strategies are usually early rushes of 2-3 units combined with ultimate micromanaged techniques and the more players gather to the higher/elite levels (and they will reach this level of veterancy, sooner or later) the more "unbalanced" and "bad" the game seems. Because of that, the companies always have to create patches for their RTS games in order to change the building cost, time, hit points, damage etc. of the units and to keep the game alive.
So, if you ask me, it is not the mistake of Sins of a Solar Empire for this unbalance, but the fact we always struggle for something more, we always push the game to its limit and, sooner or later, the game will prove it has a balance issue. Then, we claim the game is "broken to thit" and thigs like that. A game will always be "broken to thit" if you push it to its upper limits, no exception here! If a player believes he/she is such a great player and he/she have found the unbeatable strategy, just give us a brake and either stop playing with such a competitive way or stop playing the game at all!
I know my opinion may be biased or something, but every experienced RTS player will find a deep truth in my words...
I have to agree with you. That is the nature of the game. The developers purposely don't reveal the strategies that work to create a community where the best wins thus it becomes competitive. It is important to be open minded about sins and understand the mechanics which usually boils down to strength in numbers and effective counters, not perfect counters.
When your told a strategy doesn't work then find a way to make it work in terms of the units you produce. The problem is open minded people are now pros and the ones remaining refuse to learn or be told to learn. We need more open minded RTS players.
(Riddle King)Funny, just a couple of weeks ago I had to talk to my professor because a student got lost in the woods during an ornithology lab. Sorry a brief tangent, anyways ad hominems are not so funny but these past years I’ve always managed to garner a laughs from your’ posts; however the overarching humor of your quip didn’t add validity to your argument, but you did bring up a valid point, and partially due to the fact that I did give the scenarios in which I bring forth the units I discussed. I play random and currently I play multiplayer, or against multiple cruel to vicious AI by myself. I too have managed to kill several advent light frigates with the Vasari’s and to that effect they are only good up until the mid-game, but having their techs allows for the HC to be more effective when it’s brought into combat.
(ARTHANASIOS) I had to stop playing StarCraft II/galactic civ II/Sins of a Solar Empire(2008)Age of empires when all I saw was practically the same strategies out of the other players or myself all the time, and it got boring ( even when I was playing random and trying the most insane strategies). When the pros start spamming a small amount of unit variance it just gets boring and the game loses luster for me.
(Higher tiers means the death of creative and people start acting like a complex AI with a bad personality)
(PBHead/public)
I just find our players and myself not using the advent’s flack frigate as much as the halcon because it does a better job dealing with anti strike craft and when the defense vessel is used it is in response to the early game LRM rush. So some of the ships I can see be cheaper for a faction than others because there are other vessels that are a must have that fulfill the role effectively because of overlap.
Quote: Sins Wiki
The Defense Vessel is the Advent's anti-strike craft frigate.
Official Description: Although designed to counter enemy fighters and bombers, the Defense Vessel is also adept at taking on opposing frigates and cruisers.
=======================================
Are defense vessels cost effective? Answer: Very. They will kill capital ships easily in high numbers and are strong, high hull, high armor and are durable sons of ma bitches while firing in all directions. During the late game have defense vessels and illums because that is a disgusting fleet for your opponents to deal with and your economy wont suffer.
Against star-bases the best solution is Halcyon s with bombers as a bonus. So have 3 carrier caps early game with defense vessels.
Are you sure you meant to say this? Flak in general suck at killing large targets because they can't FF...disciples will do about twice as much damage against capital ships than flak will, and using LFs as cap killers is pretty ballsy mid-late game...if you are looking to kill caps, pretty much anything is better than flak...
High Hull? yes
High Armor? yes
Kill Capital Ships with ease? Wait...What's that? Oh RIGHT, its credibility being flushed down the toilet. Funny, kind of smells like troll...
and here i was raping a cap with my halcyons and swarm of defense vessels. Mmh i guess a little accuracy is in order:
Desciples will kill a cap faster than a defense vessel: Bombers will kill a cap faster than defense vessels.
A defense vessel does only 25% of its dps on caps but a 100 defense vessels will still kill a cap-- so why is it your using the slowest killer you may ask? uum cause everyone else has trouble killing defense vessels silly.
-RIddleKing your stupid--what if they make light frigates?
:Shut it noob- i build illums- with illusion: Who ever said just because a fat kid loves cake then he won't love cookies-with chocolate cream ?
-Are you fat Riddleking?
: No-now go away noob.. go very far away
Flak is also very vulnerable to HCs which are not countered by LRFs...they can be countered just like any other ship in the game...
Seleucia your the kind of person i would use as blue print to build an idiot.
Time ,money, economics, 200 units fleet with repulse, strength in numbers. cost and cost effectiveness of HC?
If you can't connect the dots on these pointers then i was right about you-as you speak out of your ass once again to just prove you have an answer without proving it on the battlefield
See Qu4r, when you write like this, we all know it's you just trying to troll as someone else...
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