I've locked/archived this thread/blog and have started a new discussion over here: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/454943/
Please join me if you like.
Am I streaming?
Well, I started a thread back in August (https://forums.joeuser.com/411269/) that's seen a lot of activity and actually had quite a few good bits of information for new and old players alike. I figure it's time to start a new thread and perhaps keep the OP up-to-date with useful information, etc. Feel free to use this post for any LoL discussion, etc.
Super fast background: I played a lot of Demigod as pacov/cheesuscrust. Back in August 2011 or so, I started getting heavily involved in LoL and folks have been kind enough to chime in with tips and links to various sites that have been quite useful to me. In addition, I've been able to keep up with folks that I've played Demigod with in the past and meet some new folks that play LoL and frequent these message boards.
Here's some of the things I've learned in the previous thread:
New Player tips
Great site I visit every day for LoL related news - http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends
pacov's misc info
Here's a guide I made
pacov's Guide to Improving at League of Legends and Moving Up in Elo
k - so I'm just going to put down some of my thoughts. I'm not amazing at this game, but I do certain things that improve my odds of winning in ranked and so far its panning out just fine (bronze 5 to gold 5 in about a month or so). We all have varied skill levels, so some of this might be useful and some not. Caveat complete.
Prerequisite- you need to know how to play every single role. You don't have to be a god at every single role (more power to you if you are - I'm certainly not). You need to be able to play at a serviceable level in every single role and excel at least at 1 role (preferably 2). In my case, I'm good at support and adc. I'm not great, but have serviceable mids and jungles and so so tops. Knowing what you are good at and bad at is very important. If you don't know, I can probably tell you - but you really should know... Anyway, you need to have enough champs to make solid picks in any role and you need to be able to cover any role if it comes down to it. I'll talk about how to get better at specific roles in a bit.
Champ select advice - Don't be the "fill" guy unless you really feel like you are awesome in all roles. Call your preferred role immediately when you hit the lobby. Say "adc pref." Do this as soon as you hit the lobby. Some people believe that if you call a role you magically get it. This is stupid, but if you call something out, folks will often accomodate your request. If you are feeling wishy washy for whatever reason, call out multiple roles in order of what you want to play - "adc/mid pref." In my experience, you generally do not want to call support. It's a very important role, but you want to be in a position to carry every single game if possible. If you aren't calling out a role, you are hoping that other players can carry you. If you are hoping that folks will carry you, you don't deserve to win. You need to know your best roles and you absolutely should request them.
Solo or duo in ranked? - Well, my 1st thought here is that you should solo. If you solo, you have to rely on yourself. IMO - its a much bigger test of skill to play solo and win than to duo. Do you want someone to carry you or do you really want to know that you are actually good? That said, provided you have the right duo partner, you can increase your odds of winning quite a bit. The simple math is that instead of having 4 teammates as unknown quantities, you only have 3. If you have a good duo teammate, you know what you can expect. When you duo, you get the most bang for your buck by having complimentary roles. Support/adc is good; jungle/mid also works. Even if you don't have direct symmetry in roles, if you are an amazing mid and I'm an amazing adc, our odds go up quite a bit if we both get those roles. Our odds go way down if we can't get those roles and are forced to play out of positions that we are weaker. For example, Bryff is a good mid. If he duo's up with me, the only way he will get to play that role is for me to call mid, take it myself, and then put myself into a position like support where I can't carry out of (I'm always 1st pick, Bryff is always last pick when we duo)... that and I have to show the mid I'm picking at the start which means Bryff gets hard countered. In short, we can expect that we will be a disadvantage when duo queuing. Now, if Bryff queued up with someone at a lower elo than himself that was solid, he'd likely be 1st pick and be able to get mid and have a better chance of carrying the game. Anyway, you need to keep in mind where you end up in pick order when duoing if you aren't looking to go adc/support. If you want that, you can usually get it.
How do you get better in roles that you are not good at? - Well, here's what I do. And this is really what I do on a regular basis. I think about what I'm good at and what I'm not good at. For instance, I realized that I don't play any hyper carry ads. So, I read up on hyper carries like vayne and kog maw. I look for guides on how to build them (most adcs are the same btw ), I look for vids on how people play them (eg how do I all in with a specific champ - is there a combo - when do I all in - what's the best way for me to burst - how should I behave in lane with this champ). Then, I fire up a custom game and try out the mechanics of whatever champ vs AI. Usually I learn a few tricks during that custom on how to position myself, etc. Then, I'm off to normal games where I'll request the role or character I'm trying out. Now, people still report your for being awful in normals, but it really is where you need to try out characters to see if you are any good or not as the bots are useless for proving your skill level to yourself. So, fire up that normal and ask to play a role (again - after you've tried out the champ against bots). If you don't know anyone you are with and you are quite awful, I suggest muting everyone at the start of the game. Then, do your best. Continue with this until you feel like you have a serviceable skill level in whatever role. And keep in mind what you need to work on. For me, I noticed I didn't really have alot of mids for ranked, so I started practicing some with gragas against and karth. That way, I'll be able to get the job done if I need to play mid. The next thing I need to do is put more time into being better top lane. Again, because while I prefer adc/support, I might need to play top for the team. So, best to be ready for it. Put your time in and practice roles.
One last thought - there are certain things you can generally expect in ranked. 1 - if you are 1st pick, you generally can call whatever you want. Common knowledge, I'm sure - but I'll add - CALL WHATEVER YOU WANT. 2 - if you duo queue, you generally can lock down both adc and support. It works best if your adc is 1st pick, ofc. I've bumped into like 10 random dedicated supports in all of my games of LoL. People generally aren't going to call support. So, if you are 1st pick and duo'd, just call adc and then your duo partner can almost always get support.
Lol King profiles for ranked tracking
I'm not going to update this regularly, so just consider it a snapshot (I'll add a date when I update them). Anyway, I enjoy seeing folks progress through ranked and keeping tabs on that sort of thing from time to time.
Snapshot updated 05/28/2014
Character guides
Um, yes, junglers do pick champions like Elise and Lee for this reason. Both can be played for damage or as front line bruisers/initiator types. Thats one of the reasons they work as early picks that go in any lineup.
Junglers in solo queue get stuck in a swiss army knife type of role where they have to fill whatever the team needs (because lanes tend to pick on lane matchups first and team comp second, so junglers have to fill team comp needs). That makes flexible champs like Lee and Elise popular, especially if you have first pick in solo queue.
Anyway, its not like I'm in some minority position here. For example, read Stonewalls blog. Not that I agree with him on everything, but he puts Kha in the middle of tier 2 not even accounting for team comp issues. Thats just below Skarn/Voli and just above Cho/Yi. So even without taking team into account, he is a somewhat mediocre jungler in Stonewalls opinion, which I think is fairly reasonable here. Then in his notes, he says exactly what I've been saying: "pick him only if you have laning teammate who chose a beef champion". Essentially, Stonewall is saying he can only be played out of the jungle given certain team comps.
Isn't that pretty much the definition of a niche champion?
Listen, Kha is really good. Out of mid. I wouldn't even give you top except as a niche champion (for the same reason - top is usually supposed to be somewhat tanky too). But he is only decent out of jungle in the right team comp, and just bad in the wrong team comp.
Stonewall? I prefer not to put too much stake into someone who used to simply grade junglers traits to decide which one is better. At the moment I'm writing this, there is a Challenger I player named Nightblue3 using Kha'zix jungle, so I think that in high level play some people find him a little better than decent. Skarner and Voli are nowhere to be found in the featured games being played at this time FYI.
http://cloth5.com/foxdrops-preseason-patch-3-14-solo-queue-jungle-tier-list/
You might want to start checking out this tier list for a second opinion in the future. It has Kha as a Tier 1B jungler which I find more in line with the success some people have with him.
I feel you misunderstood what I was trying to say about Elise, so let me clarify: Elise's various build options are rarely if ever the PRIMARY reason she is chosen, though I'm sure everyone feels it's a nice bonus. Stonewall mentions it as a strength for Elise/Lee but seems to praise other aspects of their jungling much more.
oh boy... you kids have been at it... going to try to catch back up...
a few things about kha - he is flavor or the week. A challenger level jungle has been playing him pretty much every game on a stream starting a new account and plowing up to challenger in like a week (nightblue). So, while this guy certainly has a much higher skill cap than me, he does appear to main kha in the jungle. You do have MINIMAL cc, but the real strength is in how quickly you delete an enemy champ. In many instances and with my lower skill cap, can delete an enemy champ before they can react in any way. cc is less of a requirement when you can do that.
I'd be complaining a bit if I was you as well as we did force you to bot.
You took it a lot more seriously than I did (madcast wore off on me a bit here, sadly). In the future, if we do an in house and you are on my team, I'll make decisions more about what is best for the team than what I want to do. Sorry, bro. I saw it as an opportunity to work on kha against better players and was a bit selfish.
The fact that one high level player mains some champion doesn't make them great or anything. In seasons past we had top 100 players who mained things like lane AP Mao and Teemo. That doesn't mean that lane AP Mao was ever more than a niche pick. It just meant that a highly skilled player happened to like that champion and played him.
Plenty of Challenger and well known Diamond I Players regularly play niche champions, but thats not an indication of impending greatness for that champ. It just means that Challenger players can do well on non God tier champions. Especially at lower ELO. This is not surprising.
bah - pacov learns some new tricks on a champ he previous was smeh with and now is slightly better with him. What other junglers have higher burst damage that can safely get in and out of a fight? kha also gets a huge kill potential spike when he can evolve his wings (after evolving his q).
I don't have a problem playing bot. Like I said, I didn't have a problem playing bot the first two games. And I really didn't even have a problem going bot the last game.
My problem was with the last game where you decided you wanted to practice Kha. I had to go bot, which was fine. Due to team comp, I was essentially forced to play Leona, which was kind of iffy into two Diamond players. Then we got zoned out for 15 minutes with no help from jungle because you didn't want to gank bot. That was followed by ~10 minutes of post laning phase ass kicking with a really bad team comp.
If we are going to play a game with against bunch of organized Diamond players who are looking for a scrimmage, lets not do really bad team comps with sub optimal lane assignments because you want to try something out. Its not fun for the rest of the people on the team.
burlap SACK
"You took it a lot more seriously than I did (madcast wore off on me a bit here, sadly). In the future, if we do an in house and you are on my team, I'll make decisions more about what is best for the team than what I want to do. Sorry, bro. I saw it as an opportunity to work on kha against better players and was a bit selfish."
I've been playing for a while and am well aware of this phenomenon. SpamHappy (Zekent) with Poppy, Tiensinoakuma with Katarina, etc. I realize that one amazing player maining and completely mastering a high skill cap champion does not make that champ good or even viable.
I don't feel this is the case at all. Kha'Zix is a great jungler with the right team comp and a quick visit to ProBuilds backs me up.
http://www.probuilds.net/guide/NA/1217807860/19877155
I'm fine with you not feeling the way I do about this champ and not sure anything could convince you otherwise since he doesn't fit your swiss army knife ideal of what role a jungler needs to fill.
I never meant to imply he was the second coming of Lee Sin, just that he's good IF you know how to play him and IF you have a good team comp and even if those two things aren't true, I think he's good enough to be worth practicing even in non ideal circumstances. Maybe not the best time to practice would be when facing Diamond/Plat premades, but Pacov already said that which was a big part of the original argument so let's move on.
Um, your link backs up my case exactly.
You are linking to a game where they played a jungle Kha with the single tankiest top in the game and the best combo of intiating CC/tank/frontline support in the game. Thats the exact NICHE that I said that Kha can be played into. If you know you have that situation - if you are last pick or you have a premade for example - by all means take Kha.
Kha is nice in a niche, but as a general pick he puts stress on your teammates (because it puts a lot of stress on their picks), and assassins tend to work better out of mid anyway (assassins that fall behind the gold curve are REALLY bad, and thats less of a danger out of mid).
That link was a mistake. Was attempting to link you to the full list of top player games with Kha'zix.
http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Khazix
I'll sum it up for you: Lots of wins in the jungle by different top players, not a lot of wins in the lane.
And that's not your point that I accidentally backed up, it's mine. You said you feel Kha is decent at best WITH the right team comp. I think he's fantastic with the right team comp and very worth working around if you can. Or practicing in a casual game if you can't.
It's ironic because personally I play junglers that better fit your ideal CC tank than you do. This whole time I'm just saying that I like Kha's potential enough that I'm willing to work around having him on my team. I'd actually never play him myself since I don't care much for coordinating picks or putting my team in a tough pick situation.
Eh? On the first page, over half the games are by one guy (Elementz) who isn't even known as a jungler and isn't even very highly ranked for a former pro player.
If you scroll down, you'll find lots more games played, some by actual pro junglers playing on their main accounts. Yeah, lots of jungle games played within the last several days cause he's extremely popular, unlike superior junglers like Skarner.
But wait!
So Challenger I junglers playing him mean nothing, former pros playing off role on their Plat smurf accounts mean nothing, so those games probably don't mean anything either.
The only thing that means anything is the opinion of jungle tier list bloggers. As long as it's not the jungle tier list blogger that I linked that thinks Kha'zix is top tier, but the one that agrees with you.
I think you just don't like admitting when you're wrong Karl.
No, I'm rejecting your reasoning that looking at ~30 games from a completely non representative subset of high ELO players tells you anything about the overall quality of a champion. I mean, your links don't mean anything other than that a few very small number of people are kind of screwing around with him since you can't reasonably extract things like winrates from the data. Plus, we already know that Pro players hardly select solo queue champions on the basis of maximizing their solo queue score, so your reasoning falls apart rather badly there too.
The basic point from your link is that Elementz is screwing around with Kha in solo queue. OH GOD, KHA MUST BE OP.
If you look at larger data sets (e.g. lolking), you can get a bigger picture. Kha is played in jungle about half the time now (we can reasonably know this since lolking reports that Kha takes smite about half the time at Diamond), and Kha is right around a 50% winrate at Diamond levels. I don't see anything eye raising in the overall data set tbh.
Kha is very similar to what Jayce did - a powerful niche champion. Jayce was strong in the sense that he had a strong lane presence and provided something that was typically not available to team comps (essentially a second ADC). But, he had the big drawback that the team had to give up a bruiser/tank type champion, which often hurt teams and lead to a fairly low winrate on Jayce. Now, Jayce was always very strong in the right team situation, but had issues in the wrong situations.
Kha looks to be the same. He provides something not usually available to teams (a strong assassin out of jungle), but you give something up (no cc or bruiser out of jungle). That works, but you can lose your team the game if you don't have the right team comp. In other words, its a niche champ that will probably stay around a 50% winrate.
Now the danger of your reasoning was always apparent here - pros were aware of this and know how to work around it. So they played Jayce and were successful. But your random solo queue team didn't know what they were doing. So they blindly played Jayce without getting the right team and just killed their solo queue teams (Jayce actually had like 46% winrates when he was "OP"). So just because you see pros doing something doesn't mean that it will be OP as a first pick in solo queue because you can't count on your team to form team comps like pros do.
kha'zix is best jungler. Happy new year, nerds! mord es numero uno all other roles. Now celebrate stuffs
Foxdrop (the EU Stonewall and a stronger and less bitter player anyway. Do you remember how bad Stonewall though Lee Sin was at the beginning of S3 because he decided he had to start boots!) has placed Kha'zix at the top of his lists for years now.
The jungle rework in general really helped Kha'zix, and now that mid is transitioning a little bit away from assassins you stop having the 'double assassin' problem. Plus, Kha'zix scales pretty well. He has a decent amount of AoE damage, provides waveclear as a jungle (which is really rare!), and so on.
Kha'zix has been wrecking challenger for a few months now. The biggest disadvantage is that he takes all the buffs the entire game. But that is what high level Challenger does every game in NA anyway. EU players that come over to play on NA servers are always shocked by how selfish NA junglers are.
Games tonight at 12:45AM for those that are interseted - resume jungle discussion!
Jayce =/= Kha'zix
It's apples and oranges. Jayce picks forced your team to either go no comp or poke comp, which ain't a good thing in SoloQ. This along with the pressure you'd put on your team by not having a bruiser top, made him a tough fit as you detailed eloquently in our last reparte.
But, team comp issues were only part of the Jayce issue. The main problem was that pros had the mechanics and wherewithal to abuse traits about him that guys like myself who fancied themselves decent Jayce players, didn't even know about.
Not much to do with the debate on how good of a jungler Kha'zix is when on a good team for him that you tried to twist into me saying "OMG KHA'ZIX SO OP!!!"
He's op.
So, I've been following this derp troll crap quite a bit. Someone requested he take down this site - which he linked to - which is up atm. I defy you to watch this for 5 minutes... just jump between a few channels on the side bar. Seems like a place where kids share their musical "talent"... its just... vomitsssss. Anyway, I challenge you. Take a look.
http://www.younow.com/musicians+
Wait, a place where I can share my novel clarinet skills? yeah! waitno
also - did karl have a stroke? Multiple games as Vi? WUT?
also... my ranked 5's team actually plays ranked for the 1st time... we go 1/1 losing 1 game because the support/adc don't swap champs... ffs.
was nice to actually catch thunder again tonight - been awhile. Anyway, early night for me. Hope to catch you all soon.
Good playing with the boys again! Been working a bunch of overtime so my only League fix has been my Kha'zix debate with Karl.
But yesterday was my one day off I got that I didn't have to spend with my GF, and I'm back to work. And back to needling Karl!
http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-lists/solo-tier-list/26922-solo-queue-tier-list-yasuo-era-patch-3-15
tl;dr Some fool Diamond 1 player thinks Kha'zix is a top six SoloQ jungler.
i would have gone jungle kha against karl tonight in one of our in house games, but the enemy team left me nasus... I mean... c'mon... its nasus.
I'm watching that last game right now...
6 stacks on Nasus at 4:15 after you get 3 buffs? WTF. How?
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