I've locked/archived this thread/blog and have started a new discussion over here: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/454943/
Please join me if you like.
Am I streaming?
Well, I started a thread back in August (https://forums.joeuser.com/411269/) that's seen a lot of activity and actually had quite a few good bits of information for new and old players alike. I figure it's time to start a new thread and perhaps keep the OP up-to-date with useful information, etc. Feel free to use this post for any LoL discussion, etc.
Super fast background: I played a lot of Demigod as pacov/cheesuscrust. Back in August 2011 or so, I started getting heavily involved in LoL and folks have been kind enough to chime in with tips and links to various sites that have been quite useful to me. In addition, I've been able to keep up with folks that I've played Demigod with in the past and meet some new folks that play LoL and frequent these message boards.
Here's some of the things I've learned in the previous thread:
New Player tips
Great site I visit every day for LoL related news - http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends
pacov's misc info
Here's a guide I made
pacov's Guide to Improving at League of Legends and Moving Up in Elo
k - so I'm just going to put down some of my thoughts. I'm not amazing at this game, but I do certain things that improve my odds of winning in ranked and so far its panning out just fine (bronze 5 to gold 5 in about a month or so). We all have varied skill levels, so some of this might be useful and some not. Caveat complete.
Prerequisite- you need to know how to play every single role. You don't have to be a god at every single role (more power to you if you are - I'm certainly not). You need to be able to play at a serviceable level in every single role and excel at least at 1 role (preferably 2). In my case, I'm good at support and adc. I'm not great, but have serviceable mids and jungles and so so tops. Knowing what you are good at and bad at is very important. If you don't know, I can probably tell you - but you really should know... Anyway, you need to have enough champs to make solid picks in any role and you need to be able to cover any role if it comes down to it. I'll talk about how to get better at specific roles in a bit.
Champ select advice - Don't be the "fill" guy unless you really feel like you are awesome in all roles. Call your preferred role immediately when you hit the lobby. Say "adc pref." Do this as soon as you hit the lobby. Some people believe that if you call a role you magically get it. This is stupid, but if you call something out, folks will often accomodate your request. If you are feeling wishy washy for whatever reason, call out multiple roles in order of what you want to play - "adc/mid pref." In my experience, you generally do not want to call support. It's a very important role, but you want to be in a position to carry every single game if possible. If you aren't calling out a role, you are hoping that other players can carry you. If you are hoping that folks will carry you, you don't deserve to win. You need to know your best roles and you absolutely should request them.
Solo or duo in ranked? - Well, my 1st thought here is that you should solo. If you solo, you have to rely on yourself. IMO - its a much bigger test of skill to play solo and win than to duo. Do you want someone to carry you or do you really want to know that you are actually good? That said, provided you have the right duo partner, you can increase your odds of winning quite a bit. The simple math is that instead of having 4 teammates as unknown quantities, you only have 3. If you have a good duo teammate, you know what you can expect. When you duo, you get the most bang for your buck by having complimentary roles. Support/adc is good; jungle/mid also works. Even if you don't have direct symmetry in roles, if you are an amazing mid and I'm an amazing adc, our odds go up quite a bit if we both get those roles. Our odds go way down if we can't get those roles and are forced to play out of positions that we are weaker. For example, Bryff is a good mid. If he duo's up with me, the only way he will get to play that role is for me to call mid, take it myself, and then put myself into a position like support where I can't carry out of (I'm always 1st pick, Bryff is always last pick when we duo)... that and I have to show the mid I'm picking at the start which means Bryff gets hard countered. In short, we can expect that we will be a disadvantage when duo queuing. Now, if Bryff queued up with someone at a lower elo than himself that was solid, he'd likely be 1st pick and be able to get mid and have a better chance of carrying the game. Anyway, you need to keep in mind where you end up in pick order when duoing if you aren't looking to go adc/support. If you want that, you can usually get it.
How do you get better in roles that you are not good at? - Well, here's what I do. And this is really what I do on a regular basis. I think about what I'm good at and what I'm not good at. For instance, I realized that I don't play any hyper carry ads. So, I read up on hyper carries like vayne and kog maw. I look for guides on how to build them (most adcs are the same btw ), I look for vids on how people play them (eg how do I all in with a specific champ - is there a combo - when do I all in - what's the best way for me to burst - how should I behave in lane with this champ). Then, I fire up a custom game and try out the mechanics of whatever champ vs AI. Usually I learn a few tricks during that custom on how to position myself, etc. Then, I'm off to normal games where I'll request the role or character I'm trying out. Now, people still report your for being awful in normals, but it really is where you need to try out characters to see if you are any good or not as the bots are useless for proving your skill level to yourself. So, fire up that normal and ask to play a role (again - after you've tried out the champ against bots). If you don't know anyone you are with and you are quite awful, I suggest muting everyone at the start of the game. Then, do your best. Continue with this until you feel like you have a serviceable skill level in whatever role. And keep in mind what you need to work on. For me, I noticed I didn't really have alot of mids for ranked, so I started practicing some with gragas against and karth. That way, I'll be able to get the job done if I need to play mid. The next thing I need to do is put more time into being better top lane. Again, because while I prefer adc/support, I might need to play top for the team. So, best to be ready for it. Put your time in and practice roles.
One last thought - there are certain things you can generally expect in ranked. 1 - if you are 1st pick, you generally can call whatever you want. Common knowledge, I'm sure - but I'll add - CALL WHATEVER YOU WANT. 2 - if you duo queue, you generally can lock down both adc and support. It works best if your adc is 1st pick, ofc. I've bumped into like 10 random dedicated supports in all of my games of LoL. People generally aren't going to call support. So, if you are 1st pick and duo'd, just call adc and then your duo partner can almost always get support.
Lol King profiles for ranked tracking
I'm not going to update this regularly, so just consider it a snapshot (I'll add a date when I update them). Anyway, I enjoy seeing folks progress through ranked and keeping tabs on that sort of thing from time to time.
Snapshot updated 05/28/2014
Character guides
your whole team had disengages. Janna ult and tornado, cait net, jayce gate, aatrox jump and ahri ult. If I could do it over I would ult way behind you guys instead of ontop/slightly behind because you were all getting out of the initial noc ult/shen ult to easily. But the aatrox split pushing won the game and a few clutch kills stopping us from taking inhibs. Our wave clear was also poor with me playing gp.
the reason you guys won was because of Janna and Aatrox. That was really it. (Aatrox did 38k damage to champs - to compare you did 46k)
Your early 2v1 was not well thought out. We got the bottom tower a full minute ahead of you ( i was able to recall and get to top tower where we nearly killed you as you got the last few hits on it). Shen 2v1's very well and if you take Shen's tower early he can just freeze - but unlike someone like Jayce, you don't get to punish the freeze since he can still contribute
The only reason you top tower even kind of worked out was because hunny misplayed and died 2v1. If that hadn't have happened the tower would have easily been at 30-50% hp when i got there and you would have lost out.
Why on earth would it have been a mistake for us to 2v1 top lane after you take it and then give up dragon control when we have a Shen?
Anyway, midgame the the problem was while i went around and made plays Aatrox got to farm and eventually got to the point where he was basically a sololaner. At one point of the game he was the highest level in the game. We got a lot of dragons and so we were certainly ahead in gold as a team - but Aatrox was strong as an individual.
If you want to talk about what lost us the game - it was a few critical "recalls" that we aborted due to miscommunication and gave you inhibitors we never recovered from. Secondly there were a few little things we could have done that would have gotten us a single inhibitor (which was all we needed to relieve the pressure).
You didn't really do much "evasion" of Nocturne ults. Every single person on your team had the ability to stop me. Jayce E, your E/trap, Janna WR, Aatrox could knock me up, Ahri charm.
Your team consistently peeled for you (it was a good pick to what we were doing and maybe we should have tried to do more 4v4 fighting instead of using Shen ults all the time).
As far as the other team's strategy of 2v1 top went, I wasn't a fan. Seems like the strat seems to gimp both team's solo tops, and the other team's top was their highest skilled player who had a champ he was probably going to dominate his lane with if he had gone 1v1. Shen and Jayce both seem equipped to do very well against 2v1 lanes, so I'm not sure how Hunny died unless he was trading too much life for CS. He seems to be kinda easy to tilt lately.
So I'm not sure what the theoretical advantage would have been assuming good play in both lanes. Not having to face my superior Corki mechanics in the laning phase?
Kidding of course. My play was absolute shit and a big reason for our loss. I had been playing all day and was a bit burnt out, and had played 4 games previously as tank junglers which might have caused me to think I could face tank melee bruisers instead of orbwalking/kiting/attack move canceling/whatever.
So yeah... communication. Hedgie is a fantastic shot caller when everyone get's on board, but I think only Cow was on the same page. Hunny wanted to argue about lot's of things which was distracting to the team. Falris (our Support) thought it was worth his life to ward your jungle when we were not in any position to cross the river, and I was yelling into a turned off microphone for most of the game.
Blah.
Thx for the feedback - only got to skim some of it. Here's the VOD's from the 2 in house games. Uploading to youtube.
At 12:20 in game 2, we had the 3 enemy outer towers down. Enemy team had 1 of our towers down. Just adding some notes as I watch the replay. Got crap I have to do now though... :/
Here's the youtube links for anyone that is interested.
Some more thoughts after rewatching the vid. First, I don't feel like it was a strong game for me. I stuck with the hard push towers strategy and we had decent results with that imo. 3 outer towers in any game down at 12:20 is pretty solid imo. Considering the trade was for a single tower + likely 1 free drag for the enemy team, seems legit. I could have farmed a bit better during the hard push top initially, but I was focused on getting shen weak and pounding the tower. Same thing to a lesser degree when we went bot to get that tower. We knocked out the tower relatively quickly but I think my mechanical work could have been better.
After that, I think you guys have it spot on. We had sick disengages and that allowed for us to get out of fights. We kept up pressure on lanes pretty consistently by rotating in and out of 4 man groups for a bit. Nocturns ult was mainly used for offensive engages that we broke out of. Shens ult on top of that engage didn't do much. And cow called it out re: his ult - If might have made a bit more of a difference if he ulted to where we'd be at after the initial disengage.
That new fellas (name elludes me) that thunder's really impressed with - well, he did spectacular in game 1, but we had too many problems in other spots imo. Really excellent laning phase for him. Game 2 - I put him into a situation that he's not incredibly comfortable with (I think he said he's never done a lane swap before). Not sure if he itemized at the start for a solo lane or not - guessing not. That said, bot lane + their jungler put a ton of pressure on the tower and it fell quickly. Jayce then did get to get some farm, but nothing substantial at that point when we shipped him back off to top. We actually wanted to put hunny out of the game initially which was the reason for that initial pre lane swap match up. He ended up going beast mode. Hunny's aggressive split pushing actually hurt his team at times. I think there were 1 to 2 instances where we forced him to stick around instead of backing that ended up being costly to his team.
I'm no nocturne expert (or even relatively skilled with), but I'm wondering if there could have been a more beneficial use to his ult related to blocking vision instead of that shen/noct ult you fellas kept throwing at us. I really don't know, tbh, as we were most always grouped with me being intentionally ahead of the group a smidge.
What do you guy's think of our overall composition? As you folks already mentioned, heavy disengage comp. Decent ranged poke and tower siege potential, but we really shined with the fast wave clear/split pushing. That said, it was a 60 minute game with your team having substantially more kills/assists. Without all the pressure via successful split, I think we'd have eventually been overwhelmed.
a lot of my Nocturne ults were really forced - it would have been better for me to just be patient. By the time i ulted in and your team had disengaged we were far, far, far too far away in order for Sona to Flash-Crescendo or do anything else like that. Really: i should have been a lot more patient instead of trying to force things over and over and over again.
i also could have ulted on people who were solopushing (eg, go where Shen was and then 2v1 and then Shen could ult back to the rest of the group since your team didn't have very good initiation besides an Ahri charm).
We had significant vision advantages for all of that game (look at the # of wards purchased that game) and we should have been better about sitting in bushes and baiting for stuff. We had 3 globals and yet we didn't manage react enough to splitpushing properly.
Although we were def out-comped in terms of engage/disengage + poke, we should have been able to match your split. The only reason we didn't was well... because people didn't base when i told them to and we lost inhibitors because of it (and that very last baron call on my part was a bad idea - i didn't realize we were actually that crazy far ahead of you and just recalling and killing minions would have been a better call - it's a bummer Cow didn't call me out on it a little more, he seemed pretty reluctant to do it in the first place).
That said, you guys did play minutes 40-60 really well by pressuring all 3 inhibitors.
But, taking 3 towers was not because you 2v1'd - GP has no waveclear until Stattik Shiv. In any case, we would have significantly out-tower raced you easily if Shen hadn't had died. It's because of other mistakes that were made (c'mon we aren't all perfect players). We aren't C9 and taking 2 top towers at 9 minutes.
Well.. that might not be all that true. You think that would have happened if we just put the 2 of us bot from the start? I doubt it. Jayce would have likely outplayed hunny top, but I doubt the result would be a quick tower. Each team made a decision to fug their solo lane a bit. We just put ours back to top lane and then went bot ourselves. I know shen is typically fine at holding a tower 2v1. I also didn't believe hunny would be able to hold it 2v1. Where I was way off was that I thought jayce would be able to more effectively hold bot lane. We might have been best to send our jungler bot to assist early. The entire strat in my mind early game was to get those 3 towers, though. Went into the game with that goal in mind.
The only reason you thought that you were going to get three towers was because you (foolishly) think that our best play would have been to 2v1 top lane (eg, trade another tower and also lose all dragon control) after you took the tower instead of letting Shen freeze and then "sixth man" you with his ult.
we obviously (foolishly) disagree. Wreck top (check), wreck bot (check), wreck mid (check). 3 towers in 12 minutes.
I'm not sure what we disagree about though. The entire plan started with the swap was getting the 3 outer towers. None of that factored in you fellas rotating. If you think its an acceptable loss, then ok. The only way to counter that quickly would be a swap on your part. You guys owned drag like almost the entire game. Just saying, that was the only way to try to swap towers anyway.
you 2v2'd bot (and got the tower)
If we had 2v1'd bot would have lost dragon control. still lost bot tower and only had gotten an outer top tower.
This is the kind of advice you give to your enemy.
I also disagree with the 2v1 top we did.
I just watched the replay for when you killed hunny. He sat on the Caitlyn trap at 200 hp next to 3 enemies which included an Aatrox. The only reason we got those towers is because he misplayed heavily.
#towers.
The only reason you got that mid tower was because of GP lack of wave-clear (not that it i exactly "dishonorable" take advantage of that - but you wouldn't have gotten that tower against someone like Anivia - and when you were talking about the 2v1 in the pre-game you never once mentioned GP's poor waveclear).
We got your mid tower @14:20. So that's a 2 minute advantage of 2 towers in exchange for 1 dragon (2 towers for 1 dragon is certainly a good trade, but again, only for 2 minutes. Then it is 1 tower for 1 dragon which is a more-or-less equal trade).
Then we got the 2nd dragon @ 17:20.
You even say yourself at 18 minutes that you are equal-at-best for the dragon/tower trades.
Then we take your outer mid @21:30 which means we are two dragons ahead for no difference in towers.
At this arbitrary time point in time i can say with the 100% pacov confidence that the swap didn't work in your favor.
(then we got dragon at 24:00).
That was someone else that sounds exactly like me. I'm 100% sure.
I'm also pretty sure there was never a let's give them all the dragons strategy. There was a rush all outer towers strat that I was going to do whatever I could to pull off. The initial swap was responsible for the loss of exactly 1 dragon. Every missed dragon after that did not have a heck of a lot to do with the initial heavy aggression towards towers. The FACT that we successfully pulled that off in 12 minutes remains as does the FACT that we failed to follow up/contest most dragons, had poor positioning here and there, etc.
Obviously the goal of my lane swap was achieved and would not have happened that way without the swap. So, you can calculate to a T exactly when you were able to overcome the initial success of the loss of your 3 outer towers. I don't really see any need to deny that - but I can still point to how successful the strategy was - even though it was apparently impossible to pull off unless shen went full retard, bot lane folded quickly when we pushed that tower, and your team choose to run a gp out of mid.
You can have an excellent opening in a game and then follow up with bone head moves. Calculating the moment the advantage was lost doesn't make the opening bad.
I do want to throw this out as well. In prior games that same evening, hunny was playing god awful out of top and got wrecked (I think we actually lost the game prior to our in house due to top lane wrecking him severely). I also don't believe he's had to deal with 2v1 setups very much and expected he would lose his tower quickly. Jayce would have easily won the lane, but I don't believe we would have gotten the tower down as quickly. I choose the lane swap precisely because I saw it as an opportunity to score a quick tower and then quickly rotate to the remaining outer towers. Conventional wisdom would not be to put a 2v1 lane against shen unless you were very confident you'd be able to either get a kill or drop the tower quickly - I generally agree with conventional wisdom here - but the strategy paid off; we scored 1st blood on shen and then took the tower. That said, you see the strong end game numbers on shen/gp. I still think it was a solid decision that panned out for us nicely. Much of the rest of the game did not go as well, ofc.
On unrelated ranked news - karl's been putting some time into ranked and still seems a bit driven. Last I checked he was like 56 lp in silver 1. Zen climbed back up to gold I. Our new pal, danknee, hit plat 4. brad's still in unranked limbo placement matches. bryff is 70 lp or so in silver 1. I'm currently not super motivated but need to get my put in gear if I'm going to hit plat V this season.
The demigod portal is back up - looks like it was just some weekend maintenance. FYI
so - this meteos player is apparently the IT jungler atm. Does anyone have any good VODs of him doing anything particularly good? I've watched a few vids now and have not seen anything all that special or learned much sadly. Anything in particular that sets him apart?
Whats happening is that people are basically pointing out that you are engaging in causal reductionism . That is, you insist on a single cause (the lane swap) for certain events, when it is much more likely that there are many causes, at least some of which you couldn't have known about ahead of time.
In general, we get into a lot of situations where you argue that because something worked, it was a good idea. And you argue that because something didn't turn out great, it was a bad idea. It is very dangerous to draw general conclusions from this type of argument since the logic just doesn't work out in a situation with imperfect knowledge ahead of time and imperfect play on the parts of players.
Your argument seems to be pretty inconsistent in that you want to use the results of the match when the results support your argument, but reject the use of the actual game results when they do not support your argument.
I haven't watched the game, so I'm not commenting on this situation in particular. Also, I agree with your argument that lane swapping to force Hunny into a 1v2 is a good idea since I do not think that he is a particularly strong solo lane player (he does better bot it seems).
Edited: Tried to make an analogy for Karl's rather droll post. Didn't like how it read.
off to bed - will read tomorrow. got back into zac jungle - reasonable successful
Here's a vod brad requested - I think its the right one - http://www.twitch.tv/1pacov1/c/2699823
If that's not the one, the whole night's games are here: http://www.twitch.tv/1pacov1/b/441397501
Here's a link to my best zac jungle game ever (the 12/0/6 listed in the pic) - a few shout outs to mr karl here and there: http://www.twitch.tv/1pacov1/c/2699872
Lol. I want the base race from yesterday where we almost lost. I was Elise if that helps.
Asks me to do something when I'm about to go to bed; gets bad results. Anywho - I'll see about uploading that after work.
Try looking at things this way and then anyone can respond. Forget the specific game that was the topic for a bit (game 2 in house from a few days back). Let's say someone makes a call on an opening strategy - doesn't really matter what it is, but we'll say someone calls to invade the enemy red knowing that the enemy jungler likely starts blue. Now, invades can be a good strategy and you can do them even safer if you have more intel to inform the strategy you've chosen. For instance, an early ward, spotting x person, etc. Anyway, you decide to do an invade based on some sort of strategic element (hopefully). Now, if the invade was successful, it was a decent call. If you picked off someone during the invade or managed to get a total of 3 buffs, it was likely a great call. If the enemy team manages to ambush you and 1 or more of you die without getting a kill, it was likely a bad call.
Based on that example, all the data you have informs the strategy, but the result dictates whether or not the strategy was a good call.
Harkening back to game 2 of our in house - I had 2 strategies in mind. The 1st strategy was informed by hunny's poor performance in previous games along with inexperience running solo top vs 2. Add that to the fact that jayce normally can hold a tower a bit better against 2 then shen (imo - I know many would disagree) - and that we had our "super star" player covering solo bot... well, that's even additional reasoning why I'd want a lane swap. My overarching strategy was get the 3 outter towers as quickly as possible. For me, that meant showcasing my incredible mechanical skills and bypassing some cs in favor of getting damage on towers as quickly as possible.
So, strategy #1 (lane swap to dominate shen) was an informed strategy based on all the info I had available to me. I'd certainly have had some second thoughts if I thought bot lane would cave so quickly, but I'm guessing that jayce just didn't know how to properly handle a 2v1. For instance, if I know I'm going into a 2v1, I'll start with a more sustain oriented build (no idea what jayce started with, btw) and I'll likely try to get some cs very quickly in case the enemy team decides to push in for a tower. Anyway, strategy 1 could have failed and then clearly been a bad call. The call paid off and met an early goal of strategy #2. Now, were there any guarantees that strategy #2 was going to happen? Nope. But I stuck with the strategy and had success based on other variables. It's not like it was some genius call. We actually failed at so many points during that game and were not able to capitalize off having the outer towers down so early. The only thing having the towers down early actually did for us was that it enabled us to continue to push those lanes further which would eventually result in having multiple lanes pushing at the same time... which we failed to translate into any dragons, etc.
Also, going back to my initial premise: "all the data you have informs the strategy, but the result dictates whether or not the strategy was a good call. " Strategy #1 resulted in first blood and a tower. The price was a tower and a dragon. That trade actually goes in favor of the enemy team. I honestly had expected jayce to be able to hold a bit better than that (granted he was likely boned in any case when the jungler came down to make a 3v1). Anyway, getting the additional towers quickly was a huge win for us. Failing to capitalize after that was a big loss.
Knowing what I know now, would I make the same call? Well, if you are telling me I can get 3 outer towers at 12 minutes, I'd say yes. For certain. If not - if the enemy stopped us from getting those towers, then no. Bad call. Bot tower is more valuable than top tower imo. A
nywho - hopefully that is clear. I go for top assuming we can crush hunny and get the tower. I put our all star bot in the hopes that he can hold bot tower long enough for us to get top tower and rotate to bot. That makes perfect sense to me and sounded legit. Executed the 1st part of the strat and failed at the 2nd.
You failed to take into account that Hedgie actually knows what he is doing pacov After he saw the lane swap he did he buffs then immediately went bot lane to push it down. They got our tower at the same time if not sooner than we got their tower AND got dragon because of it since there were 4 people in the area for them and only 2 for us (since our jungler was top with you). Us getting the other 2 outer towers had nothing to do with the lane swap either and on the contrary put all of us behind in farm because of the rotations having so many people in each lane. I also want to address a point Hedgie brought up earlier about Aatrox being like another solo laner for us. I agree, but him having all that farm put me in particular waaay behind in farm. I barely had enough damage to burst Corki with an ignite on him (and that is if Shen didn't have ult up). I probably could have spent my gold better (void or DFG instead of the abyssal - no idea why I though it was a good idea vs. Hedgie's team with low magic dmg). I just think all in all both teams learned a lot from that game and made quite a few mistakes. Just my opinion.
Edit: I also think the teams should have swapped sides after the first game. The way it was set up we got first pick both times, but they got last pick.
I agree with that. I didn't think of it at the time and no one brought it up. Completely agree we should do map side swaps if we are running the same team more than once.
That doesn't really make sense to me. What exactly is the scenario you can imagine where we do normal laning and get 3 towers at 12 minutes? adc/support would have to ace bot lane to pull it off that early. I don't really think it was possible without a lane swap to accomplish that so quickly.
I'm sure. It was a long arse game. Honestly, I learned that if I'm doing any sort of shot calling, I need to have more plans. I literally had those 2 strategic thoughts/plans... after that, poo town. And our comp was somewhat unique. Great disengage but not super great for fighting. Was fun though. Kind of hate that we seem to have the personnel for in house games really late in the evening now. I'd love to play, but its a bad idea if we are just starting an in house at midnight and I have to work the next morning. I love em though.
botlane wasn't a 2v1 - it was a 3v1, don't harp on the Jayce not holding as well as you wanted him to. i didn't kill a single non-buff camp.
Repeating "3 towers at 12 minutes" without admitting we got 2 towers + 2 dragons at 14 is insulting. You are picking an arbitrary point of time to make a claim that you outmaneuvered us with your superior foresight without giving us any credibility.
Finally, giving us your buddies who are currently on tilt/easily banned (like PeterDumpTrunk back in the day and Hunny on Jax a few days ago) with the intention of exploiting them isn't "strategy" - it's just sabatoge. While obviously Hunny did fine both those games, you're sending us a message that we can't really come to the bargaining table without you trying to swindle us. This is, of course, your perogative but it makes me unwilling to play these games.
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