Well, I've been thinking through how to start to have a certain discussion for a bit now that's somewhat personal to me.  I'm honestly not all that sure how to really get into things without having a huge wave of negativity occur, but here goes at any rate.  I want to try to figure out a way to better deal with negativity in the game - originating both from me and from other people - and I'm really at a loss as to how to do so.  My minds likely going to go back and forth, so please bear with me. 

So, yesterday (we'll call this situation A), I invite a fellow that I met from the older gamers or some such organization that posted on reddit awhile back.  The goal of the group was to put like minded individuals together.   Like minded meant people that wanted to play the game for fun or competitively, but didn't want to play with douchebags that flame em, etc.  Anyway, I've noticed a trend with this particular pal recently (and note, this is a guy I play with maybe a couples times a week or so at best).  The trend is that he absolutely explodes if he's questioned about anything he's doing.  There's not like a huge build up - its just you know he's going to lose his shite on someone if he's pressed again.  Last night, a teammate wasn't happy about how this fellow reacted to a particular gank.  So, they go at it ever so briefy and eventually I ask folks to try to calm down a bit.  I guess I'll throw this comment in - I know plenty of times I've wound people up and been douchy - I'm definitely included in the group of people that make LoL an unpleasant experience for some... I'm just trying to look at a particular instance at the moment.

I'll jump back to that example in a moment, but let's talk about how things should be (imo at least).  The ideal setup in my mind is for pals to come together and play a game they enjoy.  Pretty basic stuff.  Compliments and positive call outs when someone did a great job.  No snapping or insulting when something goes the wrong way.  The occasional poking fun to be sure, but nothing excessive.  Anyway, that's ideal.  I don't think I see the ideal on any given night.  hell - if might have been weeks since I've seen that sort of thing.  And that's kind of depressing.  To the point that you eventually decide you'd rather not even play with certain individuals. So, knowing that I'm actually quite prone to douchebaggery, I often try to be both proactive and reactive.  For instance, if I realize I'm running my mouth and being a dick, well, I'll drop from the skype call.  If I recognize my poor behavior after the fact, I might just stay off skype altogether for a day or so and apologize to whomever I likely offended.  Anyway, I still screw up, so I'm trying think of ways to reduce the odds of negative behavior from me (as I'm the only one I can really control, per se).  On that angle, I often think that people just don't give a fug and would prefer to act however they want.  After all, its just your "internet pals."  Worst case they get sick of your crap and you just move along and play with other pals.  Unfortunately for me, I apparently do care and I'm actually pretty saddened when I behave terribly towards folks that I had considered friends.  And also feel the same way when folks treat me similarly. 

Anyway, so how does one deal with situation A?  In the particular situation I mentioned, someone has something crappy going on in their life (had a bad day, w/e) and is ready to snap.  You can quickly tell that this is the case based on your interaction with them.  So, prodding said person will very likely result in some toxic vomit that will also likely spill over to anyone that is easily influenced by toxicity.  I think in the particular example I mentioned, one player prodded the exploding man, exploding man started to explode, pacov tried to diffuse the exploding man some and I think by that time the other player was already wound up and now also ready to be toxic.  So the cause of the toxicity is 1 player coming to the game with a chip on their shoulder, someone calling out mr chippy, mr chippy exploding on someone, and the next thing you know now you have 2 players being much more agitated.... which then can spill over to more people.

Random interjection - is there a way to mute a particular individual in a group skype call?  I honestly don't know and that would be a useful to know for me anyway.

OK - so things that I've found that often help remove/prevent toxicity. Player combinations.  For instance, karl and I did a few ranked games the past few days.  We got him to play jungler and me to play w/e else.  I find that in instances where its just me and another player AND we aren't in the same lane, well - any negative energy is likely going to be me saying something briefly over voice chat about X player being a smeh - usually he and I aren't busting each others chops in those duo instances. 

Other thoughts - don't use voice chat in some settings.  If you are with a group that often ends up with a few potential toxic folks, then sometimes its wise to just avoid voice chat altogether.  The toxicity rolls over to everyone if the whole team is in voice chat and there are a few toxic folks already wound up.  If you realize this, dropping from voice chat is probably the best route to still being able to enjoy yourself. 

I guess I'll throw in one more thing and then move along for now.  I've been on anti-depressants since my father passed a few years ago and am going through a transition while I'm reducing the dosage on those drugs.  It's a pretty big body chemistry change and its taking a bit of effort to stay EVEN.  I think I'm starting to get the hang of things.  Anyway, that brings me to my last comment that was particularly saddening, but just a heads up.  I offended thunder a few posts back and he decided he'd prefer to cease playing LoL with me as a result or as a combination of things leading up to that.  I apologized to him privately as well, but have not heard from him since.  Losing him as a pal is a sad thing for me personally.  All the more reason why I'm interested in continuing to think about toxicity and how to make our gaming environment more fun/friendly. 

I don't know if any of you have any thoughts on how to make things better, but I'm interested in hearing them if you do.  thanks.

welcome to the club....

Honestly, I don't fully know how to take the game less seriously.  That definitely seems along the lines of what I need to do, though.  If you think about it for just a few seconds, the idiotic stuff that gets us amped up is just nonsense.  But I'd think its safe to say that most of the folks that follow this thread and we play with are pretty passionate about the game. You don't accumulate a ton of statistics, learn all the nuances of the game, etc, and not be passionate. 

I suppose its useful to add that I'm mostly talking about toxicity as it pertains to our little group as opposed to the general LoL solo queue setting.  I think I've actually got a pretty good handle on that sort of thing.  I leave all chat off so I don't ever have to listen to nonsense from the enemy team (or be tempted to insult/troll them) and I usually just mute anyone on my team in solo queue that might be acting like a jerk, etc... and I usually try to keep my comments to myself.  That usually results in a fairly enjoyable experience for me at the very least.  Other's that I play with regularly might have issues with solo queue, but I think I'm generally fine there.  It's when we get into our group play dynamic that we often get into a toxic mess.  The only thing I can think to do is just keep my fing mouth shut... but then there are triggers like other people getting worked up that spill over to me (other times I'm the root cause of negativity, ofc).  So, I want to play with folks that can bring out the worst in me and vice versa because I generally enjoy playing with them.  In no case is someone raging toxic 100% of the time.  What I think I need to figure out how to do is find better ways of communicating.  Guy X is out farming when he's needed for a team fight... how does one convey get over here in a nice way that doesn't offend the guy that "knows" he's doing the right thing by afk farming.  Guy X is already offended that you are telling him he's needed often.  In solo queue I go a round about way and just ping whoever is farming and then ping retreat on our grouped team... that usually sends a clear message that isn't all that rude and lets everyone know don't go in without farmer john.  You try to convey the same thing in voice chat... often it comes across very negative because you are pointing out that someone made a decision to farm that is quite possibly hurting the team at that moment. 

Anyway, because folks are passionate, they tend to get pissy when folks under perform or are having a bad game themselves.  Doesn't matter that its a game and we are playing it for fun at that point.  You aren't having fun and now its angry screaming baby time. 

i really don't think this is true. We all have games where we feed 0/14 and generally speaking there is little-to-no chewing out. Usually people understand this, especially if you're someone who plays with the group a lot or is making a sincere effort to learn a new character and it just isn't working out. 

The times things are most tense is when a game is really close (or was lost due to a big misplay in early game such as a bad dragon fight or a bad 4v2 dive botlane that turns into a triple kill). 

Or if there are people who either are lower skilled or have particular play patterns that lose us games repeatably and they don't ever try to change or address the behavior. 

These two circumstances are almost always the source of disagreements on here or in voice chat. People very rarely get super mad if every lane loses. People don't even get hella pissed if someone else missmites and we lose the game (that one time Bryff farmed a creepwave and pacov missed as nunu excluded )

Almost everyone who posts here was originally part of "high elo demigod". Though obviously you could toy around with the weaker champs such as DA, we mostly focused on high level gameplay. That is, we all bought Currency ASAP, Generals always started monks, everyone used BotF. Even though like we play to have fun, we also understand that you can play to have fun... while also playing optimally. 

i don't think that 'i just wanna play anyone everywhere and be successful' is more automatically more fun. This is an extremely naive viewpoint based off of "novelty is more fun that structure". It comes from games such as Call of Duty where people can just come and go as they please. This is only "fun" for people who want zero progression. MOBAs are a game about progression.

It's even more naive because the current meta (excluding high Elo 2v1 lane swaps that invalidate melee solo lanes with no ranged farming tools) ensures that every single "role" is viable. Every single role:

- tanks

- assassins

- supports

- pushers

- carries

- teamfighters

- duelists

Every single role has a place in this meta. The only role that is disadvantaged in the current meta are melee carries (Yi, Trynd, Fiora, Aatrox). And Tryndamere is perma-banned in Plat. 

i think this happens a lot. A lot of the "negative" talk is more "you should do this and not that and (most importantly) this is why i think why".

Or "wtf how did this ___ awful thing happened. Maybe ____".

i think this is because all of us are trying to improve our game. Whether it is learning a new champ/role or trying out new strategies i think most of us approach each game with trying to learn stuff. Again, this feeds into the "high elo demigod".

People are passionate and want to win/learn and LoL is complex enough that everyone has a little bit of a different idea on how to win. 

#Skype:

i think that hanging up on everyone is frustrating for everyone else (because you're the only hosting, usually) but i do think that leaving a Skype call is the best thing to do in some situations. It's important to be mindful of what you do afterwards (either play the game "right" or just surrender. Don't do dick things like go into a lane 2v1 and take all the farm, etc).  

i know that you can personally mute people in your group chat by right clicking. 

This is one of the reasons i advocate TS more than Skype because you can safely leave the room if you're frustrated or mute single people. 

(btw all of this is sometimes why i refuse to go onto skype with y'all

#vayne

there is a bit of a mob mentality about stuff regarding why people lost a fight.

Usually lost fights straight-up 5v5s come down to:

1- bad targeting (usually AP/top, not ADC) - also includes missed skillshots 

2- bad positioning (usually AP/ADC)

3- they have summoners while you didn't (typically occurs in initiation)

It usually isn't due to bad items or bad skill order (suboptimal skill orders only typically reduces damage by 30%. Even less for an ADC who relies more on items - Obviously that isn't the case if you do things like max Anivia Wall or an Ashe maxing Hawkshot. But maxing a real damage skill versus another...). 

ANYWAY:

Maxing W on Vayne is something you only do against melees. \:

Maxing W in lane is really bad and relies on either being absurdly ahead (so getting the proc is easy) or the enemy support being completely incompetent. 

So no idea why Brad Wong / Karl got after you for maxing something that is a situational laning to begin with. Tumble is way way better in teamfights because of the repositioning it allows you.

THAT SAID: You probably shouldn't be building a PD as your 2nd item if you go BotRK. Obviously, Vayne is slightly less-worse to do that but if you go PD you're buying a super-multiplicative item on something that doesn't multiply well (BotRK only has 25 AD and it's % passive/active can't crit). i know that more pros have been doing BotRK into PD for some odd reason but...

But just go IE. BotRK > IE > LW is a super strong build on ADCs that want to go BotRK first (Vayne, Twitch, Varus, Trist, Kog, Quinn). 

PD is a pretty weak item and actually if you watch a lot of high Elo games they will stop at Zeal, build a LW, and then complete the PD (or go Stattik Shiv instead for split-push or waveclear). PD is also pretty weak for killing towers (only the AS does anything and you have no AD with just a BotRK). 

This was kinda another case of that mob mentality because someone said something (omg, we lost that fight because Vayne did no damage). Even though that statement wasn't accurate. 

#"kill steals"

In particular, early game (unless it is a 3v2 gank botlane) damage is mostly on the AP. This is why it's usually better to let AP get kills early game (THIS IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT IF THEY ROAM. If a midlane roams bot, gets 2 assists, then helps with dragon and goes super oom, so has to go to base... while the enemy mid lane gets to farm for 2 minutes your midlaner has now fallen way behind in levels and probably gold, and potentially used flash/ignite in the gank so they are down summoners. Behind behind a level (11 versus 10 in particular) is gigantic midlane)

i watched some of your games yesterday and your jungler was trying to hard to let you get the kill, you both ended up using flash for the kill because he wasn't applying red buff very well. An assist + no flash is better than the extra 200/300 gold. That's equivalent to using barrier to get a cannon minion in terms of CD/gold value. 

Was this referring to something tonight?  Because I don't remember complaints about that - the complaint was that we started a fight top (after announcing I was going to wander through their jungle looking for a fight), and their bot lane showed up unexpectedly, leading to a 0-3 exchange.  We wanted the MIA call from pacov in chat, he thought that it didn't need to be called since Cait and him had backed recently.

I was complaining about adc builds mainly because I thought that pacov had taken more defensive runes/masteries.  He announced that he was doing this in one game, but I might have been wrong about that game - maybe he did it for the game before with support Teemo and I got it mixed up.

This really ties into the fact that pacov has a generous interpretation of "free", while I have a very conservative interpretation.  I think that pacov chalks up many of these kills as "free", while I don't really agree.

My view is that pretty much every ADC has multiple escapes nowadays (flash plus something built in).  If one of them comes up, it goes from a "free" kill that pacov wants handed off to him, to a non kill.  I mean, in the game in question there was a Cait involved.  If her net comes up, she gets away.  Same for Blitz's passive/speed buff.

So I am generally going to take the kill if its there unless I know every flash is on CD, and every escape is on CD, and I know the position of every enemy on the map.  If I can't know all that in a split second, I'm taking the kill if its there.

And really, there isn't a big advantage to putting the early kill on the ADC compared to the jungler or especially the mid.  Jungle/mid put down global map presence for the whole mid game.  That means you are basically distributing kill gold over the whole map.  If you give the kill to the ADC you get a little more power late game, but the gold gets locked into a lane for a much longer time in the mid game.

I was actually going to say this too.

There is very little complaining about somebody just playing badly, or one time screw ups.

The complaints are for egregiously stupid things (e.g. intentionally starting a 2v5 fight), or for doing the same dumb thing over and over.

I mean, if a Trist jumps into a fight and gets insta vaporized, I don't see a lot of complaints the first time.  But by the 3rd time in a game, yeah, people are going to let you know.

And really, if somebody throws a 45 minute game because they decide to charge in 1v5, they deserve some flak IMO.  Its not personal - we are pretty good about not personally insulting people.  The criticisms are really directed at specific behaviors.

I don't really think its a esports issue, per se.  I play LoL pretty much exactly how I'd play Demigod and that had little to nothing to do with esports.  In that game, the meta evolved through us without much outside influence.  I was pretty much the same way. 

Let me provide an example from last night.  I was playing a ranked game last night.  I didn't want to run jungle, but I take the role because we need it.  I play pretty damn great for the most part.  I have an imbecile for a top laner that eventually evolves into full tank split push volibear.  I spend a good chunk of my time ganking for him out of top so we don't have to deal with a super fed ryze late game.  Our ez, having a very tanky front line, decides to go blue build.  Anyway, the game lasts like 57 minutes and we lose.  We could have put the game away at like the 30 minute mark, the 35 min mark, and so on.  I'm actually fairly cheery and encouraging to my teammates throughout the game.  Anyway, based on my commentary, you hear how I'm pretty thrilled with the outcome of his game... let me reiterate some commentary from someone on my team during another point where we tried to lose the game. 

The team decides to engage their full team under a tower after we finish one of the enemy inhibitors.  So, this is immediately after we score a huge win by getting the enemy inhib.  We could literally do anything but get wrecked by the enemy team and come out way ahead having accomplished our objective.  Well, voli goes ape shit under enemy tower, the ez gets destroyed, the lulu gets destroyed (all folks on my team).  Anyway, I think we get like 1 guy and either get 4 deaths or fully aced.  Someone on my team then says - man - i Fucking love this game!!!!!!  Not in a sarcastic context, but more in a god I loved that fight under the tower.  So, someone's pretty happy and having a super fun, carefree good time.  They are enjoying themselves.  They are also throwing an easily winable game, step by step, dicking around in a ranked game... making a 20-30 minute win into a 50-60 minute loss.  So, guy 1 had fun, made poor decisions, and lost the game.  Guy 2 busted their ass playing a support role to enable his team to kick ass, over performed, and eventually lost the game so someone else could have super fun times.  I don't find much fun in slowly pissing away an easy win.  I'm not even playing a role where I'm going to get to have a bunch of fun, for the team I might add (I had wanted to adc).  People dicking around in a ranked kind of shit on folks that are trying. 

Ranked/normal games shouldn't be the same thing.  My ranked mentality is completely appropriate imo.  You don't go to ranked to dick around and try new stuff.  You come if you are ready to go to the show.  If you don't have this mentality, you shouldn't play ranked imo.  That said, problems can occur when this carries over to normal games.... or does it?  Generally speaking, I have the same mentality in ranked as I do in normals.  I do my best to win (that's fun).  The difference for me is that I might try out champs that I wouldn't necessarily play in ranked, try new strategies, try new run/master setups.  I find all that stuff quite enjoyable.  I might get my arse kicked, but I enjoy trying out new things.  I think someone (lots of gibba jabba lately here) said that the rage often comes from doing something idiotic at a really crappy time where it substantially hurts your team. 

Going to make a separate post to reply to some of this other stuff.

I'm hoping some thought will be put into this before a response, but question - are you saying I fall into this category or doing the same dumb thing over and over?

You don't get super pissed when someone maxes q instead of w? You adc didn't call mia so qq?  ...

Anyway, for me currently, its some combination of brad/karl that usually get me wound up and result in toxicity.  I do want to make crystal clear that I am part of the process that causes this toxicity (eg not blameless in the slightest), but the odds of some toxic vomit go through the roof when the 3 of us are in voice chat.  Brad seems the most prone to toxicity at this point imo (a couple days ago he was pissed at me for whatever reason and said "no wonder thunder dropped you as a friend." - this from my pal of 2-3 years...).  Karl gets wound up by me or what have you and then it just became this silly ass pile on with the 2 of them last night.  I wisely dropped from the skype call and then was able to enjoy myself at least a little bit.  Think I made the right decision about dropping from the call last night as it was only going to get worse.  Anyway, hoping I get some time to pull some clips, etc, for the vlog.  Might take me a day or so.

yeah - I really wasn't all that mad about that either at the time.  Crap happens, but I think we had things well enough in hand. 

re: free kills - I still maintain that I really am saying the same thing, over and over.  Folks are just adding various details re: what is free.  I agree with everything.  Not sure why I feel like folks are saying they disagree with me re: this.  You know if you took a secured kill that could have fallen on the adc (well, any support does at the very least and I do when I'm jungling anyway).  Same old story - if there's any question re: it being free, then its not free (eg tank 100 tower hits to let your adc take a kill = no free). 

Now, the discussion re: who you should be trying to drop the kill on is completely relevant in the event.  That's interesting - but in my mind, mostly relevant just during early/mid.  The jungler getting an early kill is a big help to them and the team.  No objection there.  There are just certain times, like you mentioned, where that extra gold for adc makes a huge impact on the lane.  And I can't say in advance, hey guys, if there is a magical setup where the enemy adc/support can be picked off and have no escapes up, well, try to let me get that kill as I will now have enough for cutlass.  Also, I had a rough time and am down about 13 cs.  This will make a big difference in lane.  All I can generally do is just stick with the principal is that if its a free kill (100% free), gimme.  That's like way too many statistics to have in mind based on the small probability of a free kill that could be given to X number of players.  Anyway, I just get crabby when I'm sitting on 0 kills and 4 assists. 

Yeah - sadly there are a few easy ways to get me wound up.  Often he's offering useful comments in chat while he's watching a game I'm streaming and I appreciate that - things like maybe you should X or maybe X.  Quite often very good advice.  Other times, just trying to get a rise out of me.  Worst case is that when I get wound up, I'm absolute hell to have to have to listen to because I go into broke record bitching mode... something everyone would prefer I avoid - including me.

maybe... adc's are greedy bastards.  I just happen to keep that in mind when I'm supporting/jungling, eh.  To be fair, very low odds I'll stop complaining about this thing overnight, but I will try to work on it a bit. 

What is this.  Free?  I don't even know what the word is supposed to mean anymore.  I think pacov is of the mind that our team can waltz around the map taking objectives cheerfully while the other team is blissfully oblivious.

new master yi is live on pbe.  I'll be checking it out tomorrow.

spirit visage just got a HUGE buff on pbe

old

new

Spirit Visage

Item Cost: 2500

Recipe Cost: 300

+400 Health
+55 Magic Resist
+20 Health Regen per 5 seconds
+20% Cooldown Reduction

UNIQUE Passive: Increases self-healing, Health Regen, Lifesteal, and Spell Vamp effects by 20%.

Might not seem crazy huge, but it is imo. 

Since it has no mana regen philo stone is very unlikely. It will probably be something like 2 regen beads, kindlegem, negatron cloak, etc.