I don’t have a problem with atheists — each to his own comfort level — nonetheless, it is ridiculous for one of that inclination to get rattled to the extent that others of belief are denied their comfort. Atheism by definition is free from religion. Theists are free to believe as they see fit; atheists should look upon these " misguided" as pathetic but have the right to the "wrong" path. If, however, atheist take on the passion of "religion" in their belief that there is no God, they in reality are in the business of propagating their non-faith as feverishly as the old Marxist line. In this respect they are as trapped in "belief" as the rest of us pathetic old fools. They should therefore lobby for a limited currency series that states "In "God we do not trust," or a postage stamp that shows a black hole with the inscription "Godless."
Please don't take it personally. It's not meant that way. I know you are a unique person who may not fit into every detail of Atheism, at least as far as I can tell, certainly not militant Atheism.
I always try to generalize Atheism or Secular Humanism, Zionism, Radical Feminism etc.
Nope, you've got the wrong crowd for hate.
God is Love. Christ taught love by example and He commanded that we are to love our neighbor, even our enemies; to do good to them which hate us. Catholics have a duty to love everyone without exception, becasue of their intrinsic dignity as a human person made in the image and likeness of God.
We desire for everyone eternal life. Of course, that doesn't mean we have to be a doormat to those who wish us harm.
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The best I can do is tell the truth.The truth is always real.But sometimes it hurts and is hard to take.
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Here is a bit of Militant Atheism coming out.
And the battle lines are drawn....you want God and religions, specifically Christianity, out of government schools but are quite content in having your religion, secular and atheistic humanism in its place.
I'll respond to the rest of your post, but right now gotta go make lunch.
Lula, I too speak in generalities much more often than I intend to so I know how that goes. Often when I say "you" I do not mean 'you' I mean the whole RCCC thing ... sometimes I do though so I will try to be more careful. It is interesting the way you pick and choose what to argue against. Take this for instance: “And the battle lines are drawn....you want God and religions, specifically Christianity, out of government schools but are quite content in having your religion, secular and atheistic humanism in its place.” What battle is that … certainly not my battle anyway? What special consideration do you think Catholics deserve to allow the teaching of their religion in government schools? When one theology is being admitted … well there are many theologies out there you know but of course they do not deserve consideration … gotcha. I can just see the circus, hahaha; RCC sued by Baptists, sued by Mormons, sued by Islamists, sued by evangelicals, sued by the Hare Krishna … just to get the right flavor of pollution to brainwash our children with, hahaha. Yea, that will surely help things out go figure???Just for the record, secular and atheistic humanism has always been the mainstay of modern public schools (RRR) … none of this in its place nonsense. You guys are trying to break into the public school system … well lots of luck there, not. As far as the hate goes, would despise, detest or condemn work better for you. You may think “God is Love” but neither you nor your church have the least idea how to express it to anyone besides yourselves on any other terms than your own of course. Maybe it would be much faster if you just told me which groups around the world are associates and friends of the RCC because my list would take all day to compile. Lula, you use the word “hate” more than anyone I know … such compassion is almost overwhelming. You just love everyone and everyone just hates you (my-oh-my) … sounds like one of them arduous conundrums to me. Just remember, you guys made the rules that we are all supposed to follow (just because you say so) … how has that been working out for you? After a couple thousand years of a failed strategy, I think you should reconsider things. If you RCC guys could just leave secular society alone, stop trying to force lost issues on everyone else, give up concurring the world and clean up your own nasty houses … you might actually get some respect for a change. Until that time though, you have the status quo …
I note you put the word evil in parenthesis. Perhaps we should first define evil and by evil. I mean in the moral sense.
When I speak of evil, I mean sin. Man has free will to choose evil or not....that is to sin or not. Sin is the reason of moral evil in the world and man's free will to sin or not is the proximate reason.
Atheism, in and of itself, is evil (meaning sin). And no one is forcing belief in Atheism. Atheism is one's free choosing. so in this sense, one chooses to do evil. Atheism is a grave sin against the First Commandment of Almighty God.
Atheism is serving someone or something else other than the One True God as god. It could be self, man, power, money, science...etc.
I reject Atheism and all its forms and anything that contributes to it, that leads to it and the spread of it as well as atheistic ideologies such as Totalitarianism, Communism, and Socialism.
Especially on other's blogs other than my own, I pick and choose what to argue because it's very easy to get side tracked and de-rail a discussion or hijack the blog and I don't want to do that.
Another reason is time. I'm willing to spend only so much time in front of this computer. I'm sure you understand.
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I made this point because you said: For the most part I couldn’t care less about religion(s) or how people practice them or what and why they believe in them … I just don’t care. I really don’t care what else you do with it … just keep it out of our schools.
This is and has been all along a battle between Christians and Militant Atheists. (As you must know it is militant atheists who have sued to have God and Christian prayer and principles and values taken out of schools) and in saying this you have indeed joined the battle on the side of militant atheists is all I meant and want to point out.
Interesting position for a Christian to take, most say that Zeus, Odin, Thor, or Epona do not exist. Yet you take the position of that you do not believe they exist, and you can not prove that they do they exist, or not.
Flakey101 ... excellent point, hahaha! When I was young I used to have a crush for Thor ... maybe he can make a comeback. It is amazing where the mind could wander if there was no need to prove something exists or could ever have existed ... is it all in the mind then … naw, I wouldn't be this cruel to myself, hehehe. Never figured out what the Doc meant by atheist core values??? Atheist do not believe in any god … no more and no less. If that qualifies as a “way of life” or “some inverse theology” or something who am I to argue, hahaha. There is no atheist ideology at play, no atheist agenda, no atheist rituals and no atheistic superstitions and thus there is no atheistic theology or whatever. If something is not proven to exist … then there is no burden of proof to consider beyond that point. Only an idiot would even attempt to try and disprove something that wasn’t proven to exist in the first place ... Welcome to the illogical world of religion, hahaha … and politics. I tried to prove God existed … not the other way around … and I couldn’t is all.
Lula, evil as used here is anything that opposes Catholic dogma, now or anytime in the past … wouldn’t you agree? And since I do not know who I could offend, I do not believe in sin … so evil will have to do it for me. What in the world is evil about atheism other than our disagreement on the status of your God? Maybe the problem here is that you view everything opposed to your self-proclaimed powers and perspectives as atheistic. Surely you could refine this into more manageably sized groups … but I guess it is just too convenient to attack all of us on just one front … you guys are manipulative beyond comparison. I don’t hate you or Christianity or Islam or whatever else there is, I don’t even hate your God … I just do not believe in any of this. But you guys hate everyone outside your particular folds all the while pretending to be spreading God’s love. If the RCC is anything, the description you provided works well; “Totalitarianism, Communism, and Socialism” all in one bundle. What would you call it when you are not allowed any personal or private deviation from doctrine under penalty of everlasting damnation … yea I know free will, hahaha.
Evil as used here is really a negation or privation of good and all good comes from Almighty God. Good in the world can only be accounted for by the existence of God. The short of it is evil as used here is anything that opposes God and His commands.
As far as Catholic dogma on this,
Christ said, "Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many rooms, if it were not so would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?....I will come again and will take you to Myself, that where I AM you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.....I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life."
So, Christ tells us He is Truth and what did He do that we might know Him (God) and His infallible truth? He established a teaching infallible Church. Catholic dogma teaches this revealed truth about good and evil is all.
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Lula, are you sure this drivel is the best you could pick from my comment??? Defining evil ... that’s it? You jump on meaningless things with the hopes of avoiding the actual issues. You are all about camouflage and it is all superficial at best. This is exactly how you try to control the scope of a conversation ... I would call it damage control myself ... so I am going to try and chat with small comments … that should make it more difficult for you to direct traffic away from the actual topics.
As far as your comments, I try to take one point at a time. Where we agree, I support. Where we disagree, I refute and explain why.
You complain I speak in generalities, yet when I get specific as in this case concerning evil, you call it drivel.
You make a claim and when I refute it, instead of defending your claim, you clam up and move on to the next claim.
Evil exists and the first thing to understand about evil (sin) is that it opposes God and His commands. All Catholic dogma does is teach Christ's teachings why we should avoid evil and not do it.
Moral evil is sin...and sin is something you don't believe in...so, that's a whole new discussion.
Look at the question again … the drivel comment was directed at my own comment since I assume everything I have to say is drivel to you.
And I did, but expanded that explaining evil is opposition to God first and foremost. The Church's dogma only teaches what Christ taught. She condemns as evil what He did...no more no less.
Now it's time to put up. Cite or quote actual Catholic doctrine or dogma that reveals the Church teaches hate. That should keep you busy for a long time because you'll find none. The one who is inclined to oppose the Church must do so on principle, and cannot logically rail at her for forming her doctrines or dogmas according to the principles Christ gave her.
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Lula posts:Atheism, in and of itself, is evil (meaning sin). And no one is forcing belief in Atheism. Atheism is one's free choosing. so in this sense, one chooses to do evil. Atheism is a grave sin against the First Commandment of Almighty God.Atheism is serving someone or something else other than the One True God as god. It could be self, man, power, money, science...etc.
The First Commandment summons man to believe in God, to hope in Him, and to love Him above all else.
Atheism rejects or denies the existence of God, and therefore is a sin against the First Commandment.
In my discussions with Atheists, there are some who know exactly when, how, and why they don't believe God exists and there are others whose fear that there might be a God is perhaps unconscious.
I've said before that our inner voice of conscience approves the right and condemns the wrong. So, within ourselves there is a recognition of a God to whom we are responsible Who will regard the good we do and punish the evil.
Ps. 13:1, "Only the fool says in his heart, there is no God."
Atheists obstinately insist in denying the existence of God in spite of external and internal testimony. Of them Our Lord said,
".....because seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear, neither do they understand. ... For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their mind, and be converted, and I should heal them." St.Matt. 13:13-15.
Are Atheists morally evil? Of course, it's plain to see Atheism cannot exist without sin. If Atheists do not deny God in order to be free of moral restraints, they are at least guilty of neglect to examine the question as they should.
That God exists is certain for everyone with a right conscience.
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Sin is a part of life and has been with us since Adam and Eve and will be with us until Christ comes again at the end of the world.
Sin is nothing new, but the way we handle it is. For example, committing fornication becomes "premarital relations", taking birth control becomes 'family planning", abortion is "disposing of a blob of tissue". King David called a spade a spade. He said, I have sinned and done what is evil in your sight."
The modern world is divided into 2 groups, one large; one small. The small group commits itself to obedience to God's commandments. Yet, in weakness, they sin and need God's mercy and forgiveness.
The large group of worldlings have broken away from obedience to God and His commands and makes itself equal to God by making its own commands and rules for itself claiming that sin does not exist. They set themselves up as final arbiters of what is good, just and natural. The large group of worldlings are dedicated to a no fault moral code, and refuse to admit the reality of sin and the personal responsibility that accompanies it.
Before you start (continue) our discussions on moral issues, we first have to decide ‘how we decide’. It is evident when we don’t … we have chats like we have been having … useless for accomplishing anything constructive. Do we decide right and wrong based on majority opinion, based on what Congress thinks, based on what Saddam Husain thinks or what you or I think or what you think your God thinks? This creationism vs. evolution is central to our ability to tell right from wrong. Since we are on opposite sides of the fence here … how would you suggest we proceed amiably?
You make this difficult because of your one-sidedness. You insist you and yours are the last word in truth … period. That whatever you say has to be true also, just because I suppose, period. You have absolutely no regard for anyone’s culture, beliefs, history, religion, geographical location, etc., period. And it is not convert to Christianity no … it’s convert to Catholicism, period. There are so many other areas where you tack this ‘period’ onto the list of things you can do that I (we) can’t??? And somehow I am supposed to explain what to you (???) about anything??? You have no open receptors at all … just loud speakers … and that makes the world around you unfathomable … you have no mechanisms for any other source of input besides your own council. "We" (meaning you, hahaha), "won’t take no for an answer to anything" … and anything that is nugatory of RCCC is a Militant Atheists threat whose sole purpose is the destruction of the RCC … always!!!
Look, you can take or leave science or cannibalize it any way you want, so take your best shot … who cares? At least until you buy more Christian votes, you will not succeed. Whatever you believe makes no difference to me and has no effect on my life at all … besides some frustration. Here is the difference … I don’t pester people to become ‘like me’ for two reasons: 1. there can only be one me, and 2. they need to make their own decisions, who am I to make it for them? If asked, I can only respond with what I believe in … and that is not the bible.
Suggestion here: If you are chatting with another thumper … banter till you drop. As to communicating with “Freethinkers” like myself I would stay away from biblical quotes, saintly quotes, religious quotes … well almost all quotes. I am in a chat with you and you should be able to stand on your own two feet using your own chosen words to express what you so deeply believe in. I have no interest in what St. Whomever or Pope Whatever has to say … only what you have to say. If you stop trying to quote all your support, you might end up with more time.
Lula, please answer this question yourself and quit haggling me over it: “Why do you” (to me) “want to keep god(s) out of public schools?” Give me a brake woman!
A kind of atheist? My dear, you either believe there's a god of sorts or you don't. Of course there's the option of agnosticism.
stevendedalus, in the eyes of the RCC (always The Point with Lula), anyone who is not a believer in Catholicism is an atheist. They believe in other gods or none at all ... thus many different "kinds" of atheist. They go so far as to state that others who submit to their very own creation are still atheists standing outside of Catholicism. How self-serving can a cult get I wonder? This is a mess not of my making as I believe in the individual human while the Churches like to classify everyone into nice big groups where they don't have to deal with individuals ... just with a group mentality … no individuals allowed. Why do you suppose outsiders implicate most Christians when they are speaking to just one? I just don’t care to go through this over and over again with every Christian (or whatever) because it is nonsensical as you alluded to.
ATHEISM – My dictionary – disbelief in the existence of God or deities. PERIOD
ATHEISM – Catholic Dictionary – "Denial of a personal God who is totally distinct from the world he created. Modern atheism has become so varied and widespread that the Second Vatican Council identified no less than eight forms of disbelief under the single term atheismus: "Some people expressly deny the existence of God. Others maintain that man cannot make any assertion whatsoever about Him. Still others admit only such methods of investigation as would make it seem quite meaningless to ask questions about God. Many, trespassing beyond the boundaries of the positive sciences, either contend that everything can be explained by the reasoning process used in such sciences, or, on the contrary, hold that there is no such thing as absolute truth. With others it is their exaggerated idea of man that causes their faith to languish; they are more prone, it would seem, to affirm man than to deny God. Yet others have such a faulty notion of God that when they disown this product of the imagination their denial has no reference to the God of the Gospels. There are also those who never enquire about God; religion never seems to trouble or interest them at all, nor do they try to see why they should bother about it" (Church in the Modern World, I, 19). In the light of this array of infidelity, it was only logical for the council to declare that atheism is one of the greatest problems facing mankind in the world today. (Etym. Greek atheos, denying the gods, without a god.)"
It all depends on who you talk to, hahaha.
What I think of atheism will be found here ... The Religion of Atheism … Exposed
Nah, this isn't CC teaching on Atheism. A Protestant fundamentalist is someone who is not a believer in Catholicism and they are not Atheists.
Yes, there are different "kinds" of Atheists. It depends on the variation of Atheism they practice. For some Atheism is a way of life..practical Atheism. Marx's Atheism was scientific. There is also speculative, militant, and theoretical forms of Atheism.
True.
They all share the same error...namely, they deny the existence of God.
Depends on the state of their soul at the time of their death.
I did answer it. Just becasue you don't like or accept the answer doesn't mean I didn't answer it.
But I'll go into more detail although I think you could not really be any less interested.
Protestantism as you know began in the 15th century. Whatever is true in Protestantism, the Protestant forefathers brought from the Church when they left. Whatever is peculiar to Protestantism is false. The Protestant today is without guile. He only repeats the contradictions of Protestantism which he has been programmed without let up since childhood. And by saying this, I do not wish to impugn, even by implication, the Protestant's sincerity. there are many sincere Protestants out there, but there is a difference between being sincere and being correct.
The Catholic Church as far as our salvation is concerned, has the whole truth and those outside her do not. Catholic reality is primarily a spiritual and moral reality. Infallible Catholic truth is in matters of faith and morals. It's setting in a material, biological world is always secondary. Revelation is the whole truth of that which Almighty God has revealed to men. The Bible is written revelation, and Divine Tradition is unwritten Revelation. Only the CC has both.
The Catholic knows his religion is in the Bible and the Protestant, with all charity, needs to know that his religion is not.
The teaching of Christ clearly condemns Protestant doctrines (Justification by faith alone, assurance of salvation, once saved, always saved, the Bible only as the rule of Faith, etc.). These are inventions from the 15th century through today.
Protestants have to serve God in this life doing what He commands and avoiding what He forbids. If they have not always done what He commands, or have not always avoided what He forbids, they must at least be sincerely repentant of their sins before they go from this life to meet their Maker and Eternal Judge.
The same quote can be made only changing "Protestant" to "Catholic" and "the Church" to "Jesus's Teachings".
I don't think Jesus condoned the inquisition and release of depraved prisoners to ravage villages and houses of Christians who refused to pay a tithe to the Catholic church and acknowledge only their priests could intervene for a person's salvation with God.
I don't think Jesus instituted a system where by paying an "indulgence" one could sin repetitiously without true repentance merely by paying a fine.
I don't think Jesus laid out the theology of "Limbo" so the church could collect monies for prayer for the souls "temporarily detained" there.
These are the actions of men who claimed to be representing the infallible mandate of God--and they were wrong.
Foxe's Book of Martyrs was actually written by a student of the Catholic church to point out things such as this but had to be written to cover a span of centuries back to Roman times in order to prevent it's censure by the Catholic church.
Read about the church having criminals released from prisons to rape and pillage and do things like sew women's legs together during childbirth in order to "put the fear of God" in those practicing Christianity outside the Catholic church.
There is a big difference in arguing for Christ and Christianity and arguing for recognition of the organization representing the Catholic church as "Him".
In fact, Catholicism insists that religion directed by the bible alone is insufficient but must be accompanied by and submitted to the authority of Catholic doctrine. This isn't exactly "biblical", it's "Catholic".
Lula, always the fictitious explanation but quite inconsistent with what you have said ... you said that if a human doesn’t convert to Catholicism, they cannot go to Heaven … so which is it? It was really a yes / no question?
Sinperium, good points … the prisoner thing was a bit over the top though. The nefarious RCC (not Lula!) has usurped the authority of god Himself … for the riches, the control and of course the POWER. He who “controls” the word of God wields the unlimited power. What could not be justified by such zealots in the name of their chosen one? This is exactly the mentality behind suicide bombers … they just march to a different drummer is all. God beyond a personal savior is little more than submitting oneself to someone else’s representation of God. The conflict here is not with religion and science (God not included) … but between the RCC and the rest of mankind all of whom are their self-imposed enemies, go figure???
PS: You arn't going to keep me hanging on ... are you?
Actually Boobz, the "prisoner thing" is documented-- large part of it occurred during the persecution of Waldensians. Accounts detail that payments were made to released prisoners to wreck havoc and bonuses were granted when they were able to depopulate particular regions of the heretics. Often this financing was done by local nobles but it was the threat of excommunication or worse by the Catholic church that compelled them to act. You can search about Waldensians and find quite a bit of material.
In general. most Catholic theolgians defend the excesses of these and other times as "church discipline" towards heretics "within the church" (meaning they had the "authority" to punish them...to death). in fact, in most regions of Europe, it was compulsory for people to be members of the Catholic church--meaning everyone could be "righteously" punished.
Find some of the accounts of what was done and then try to imagine Jesus presiding over the events. It's sickening.
One doesn't have to be an atheist or Christian to be offended by such things--simply human. but as a Christian I find it particularly offensive to be told to "submit" to such authority or "burn in hell". I would prefer to follow my conscience and stand before God for that.
Sinperium posts: The same quote can be made only changing "Protestant" to "Catholic" and "the Church" to "Jesus's Teachings".
Indeed. Let's do it and we'll notice the first sentence governs the rest.
Whatever is true in Catholicism, the Catholic forefathers brought from Jesus' Teachings. What ever is pecular to Catholiicism is not false but true because it was brought from Jesus' Teachings. (Whatever is pecular to Catholicism that was brought from Jesus' Teachings is Divine Tradition.). The Catholic today is without guile. He only repeats Catholicism which he has been programmed without let up since childhood.
The last sentence is true, but being programmed with Christ's Teachings (Divine Truth) is what Salvation is all about. And that's exactly the Church's, Catholicism and Jesus' Teachings sole goal.
Sinpernium,
I want to respond to the rest of your post #70, but that would be taking this post too much off topic.
Within the next few days, I'll establish a separate article to do that unless I hear from Stevendedalus that it is OK here.
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