Repost from deep in a previous thread, but I wanted to give it some chance of actually being seen by someone on the team. I'm 95% sure that all of these changes can be made through the xml without serious (or any) modification to the game engine. I fully expect this post to be ignored (or at least unacknowledged) by the developers, so my second aim is to drum up support for a small modding team to collaborate on a new research system. Let me know, if interested, and we can brainstorm a bit, and try to get things tied down before release.
So, I've mentioned a couple of times that I feel like the tech tree can be improved within the existing xml framework of the game. I don't really understand why the developers would willfully ignore the best aspects of other games in the genre, especially when they are so easy to implement. For example:
1) Multiple food source types (other than fertile land, very fertile land, and bee hives) influencing tech progression. Feeding your new society would seem like the first and most important step in rebuilding it. The tech that you use to feed your people could then affect the techs you pursue in the early game and should have implications beyond just 'I can build this improvement.' Agricultural societies that develop from Fertile Land, Wild Wheat, etc. would then develop somewhat differently than those built around hunting abundant game. Say... a slight leg up on animal domestication vs. bow and arrow and mobility techs.
2) It doesn't make that much sense to me that the ability to use a specific type of spear has been lost after the apocalypse, but written language hasn't, and most of your new citizens are automatically fully literate. Make written language a tech. One advantage might be that it's required for advanced horse-breeding (keeping records of the abilities of stallions and mares). Then you could create a building that had an upkeep of, say, 1 horse every two weeks to produce a purposefully bred charger in four. Or whatever you want to call it and whatever timeframe you want to have it in. This is all codable in about 20 minutes, guys (and gals). The written language tech could also be extended to give a bonus to research, if you'd like.
3) The development of metallurgy and the domestication of animals should be a major advance that spans both civilization and warfare improvements. Have it as a prereq for advanced weapons as well as techs that yield food bonuses. I'm sure that you've heard of or seen a plough before? Digging out roots and stumps really is easier when your plough has a nice sharp edge to it and has some strong beast of burden to pull it.
4) The development of calendars could also provide a slight food bonus. In addition to whatever bonus to this or that type of magic or magic research that seems appropriate and consistent with the game lore.
5) Rhetorics. It's just an example, but have some abstract scholastic thing give a bonus to both diplomacy and domestic education.
6) There are just tons and tons of interesting confluences between the different magic schools and 'mundane' research techs. Why not let factions that have pursued advanced Water magic get access to the same buildings as factions that have spent time developing advanced irrigation techniques. Or factions that have pursued Earth or Life research finding that they can grow slightly faster with limited farming or game resources than factions with the same resources and other magical research programs can't?
6.5) Why not use (6) to make the magic schools 'feel' a little bit different? If you can identify specific advantages for a couple of the non-offensive schools, then you can feel free to make, say, the Fire school a little bit more offensively powerful. Sure, it might be a little unbalanced on the face of it, but if the others are able to carry a higher troop load, isn't that the diversity that we're looking for in a game like this? Advanced Fire research as a pre-req. for advanced Weapon Tempering tequniques accessible only way down the line to other factions (or the most advanced levels not availabe at all to others)?
7) What about engineering, masonry, and mathematics? What about their hypothetical relationship to the study of magic? What about the relationship between mathematics and tax revenue? There could possibly be different paths toward weatlth accumulation. There's also a plausible story to be told about the relationship between them and magic in your game world. An interesting linkage in technology and some flavor text is all you need to tell it. Or maybe magic completely defies logical characterization. Then, no tech linkages, but definitely some flavor text to demonstrate the difference.
8) Better use of World Wonders. I think(?!) that these are in the game already, but I don't really think that they're being used to their fullest potential. For me, they are a way of maintaining distance in a certain aspect of technology that would otherwise naturally shrink as the game progresses. Why not have a wonder for the first faction to discover a critical farming or mining or abstract reasoning or horse-breeding technology? An agricultural/mining/rhetorical/husbandry college- you name it whatever you want. The point is that they are used in fairly arbitrary ways in WoM, and I think that their potential is being wasted.
You see, those are just eight examples off the top of my head. Someone getting paid to do this could easily come up with upwards of 30 of these kinds of technological intersections. That's what I mean by 'nuanced tech function.' And you're right, the other two aspects of my first post would be just refraining from naming the techs as explicit descriptions of the bonus they provide you or mechanic they unlock. This doesn't do any favors for immersion. And flavor text is certainly important. Ambience is possibly the most important thing that separates a good game from a classic. And, luckily, they are low cost additions to the game in terms of man-hours.
If the developers actually consider one thing I've said in the year and a half I've been posting here I would want it to be this:
Please, be brave and have some imagination.
Maybe start with the existing tech tree (such that it is) mapped out for each section and then see about making altered connections/paths thru it? Perhaps you start from a few base techs and then can branch out from there? Maybe each node connection of a given tier is x number of research points (vs the current field of research thing) that would keep it still diferent from the normal x points to a tech that most use. Or you could build of the existing tree as a base. I agree that seeing alternate paths to get to the same place would be nice, It might make the disparate elements of the research seem more cohesive as well. Maybe something like the job grid or sphere grid from Final Fantasy?
For example if you have researched farming the next open paths would be to animal or plant based bonuses. If you could put further research into the base farming to improve the efficiency, cost, build time, or performance of buildings of the farming type class perhaps at each rank it has a chance (or increasing chance) to open up a path to calendar or planning which would normally be reached thru a science (tech) branch for making better buildings or could be reached by advancing taxing (collecting the same amount spread over the course of a year instead of once a year for example may not make you more money overall initially but would make it easier for citizens to adapt to it, making them happier and making it easier to make more long term when you bump up the tax). On a tangent the type (value) of the housing provided could effect the same qualities as those with more cash will live in the better houses (though they will have to pay for the privilage). The calendar/planning tech could then reach back to mortgageing (economic boost), complex construction (infrastructure), seasonal planting (food boost), Refined metal working (reduced consumption of metal(or a boost to production) resources for troops), or complex tools (reduced material consumption(or a boost to production) when 'spending' materials on an improvment/unit and so on. It may also tie into magic with mana efficiency, spell research, or upkeep costs or something. Caravans could be effected. That would be a lot of stuff off of one tech so it may have to have smaller impacts on each field, provide some overall tech research bonus, or have the things that could be tied to it split up and tied to other advancements.
I think that it's a little bit early for that, having only seen one tech tree.
I swear I heard that cities will be less complex than WoM. If that is true, your ideas are still very much appreciated and can surely be added to whatever incarnation FE takes in the realm of tech trees. I really like the idea of shards doing more than providing mana and spell damage. Researching water magics should change your entire society. Buildings, technology and weaponry should reflect that (like the culture in Avatar TLA but less Asian influence).
In the area of weaponry one could imagine a magical ice that is harder and lighter than normal steel. Weather Control could be a represented by a building at the end of the tech tree, allowing for nearly limitless crops and city defense. There are a myriad of additions and benefits a water shard society should have. My only fear is building my hopes up with these kinds of ideas only to have the core game flatline.
Using shards like this should also have significant drawbacks in certain areas to give checks and balances to the system. Water, since I am committed to the example, could have random side effects as you build your shard encrusted empire. This could be done through several game devices, such as random events based on which shards you control. One event could permanently decrease your units' attack damage, being prone to the lazy and peaceful life of Watertopia. Scientific production could be penalized as you go up the water tech tree (very debatable). Using magical buildings should always have side effects for that city, such as decreased production and increased training times.
In essence, lets put some feeling into every shard so that scouting a player's shards means knowing a little about their plans and society in general. I want to say, "Ooh a water shard society! I should trick them into a peace treaty and try to raise an air army to destroy The Three Towers of Calypso before they have a chance to raise any ice giants."
Calendars, Mathematics, world wonders as research options? This is not a historical forward movement game. I'm not shooting down your ideas, just want you to look at the perspective of the game. Its a rebirth of the lost magical world. Looks like you want a civ clone with magic. There is one, its Fall from Heaven II.
That's a pretty insightful comment. You know what, just disregard this thread, everyone, I think I was mistaken.
Although his reasoning seems a bit off (how is the rebirth of a world not about historical forward movement?), AM_Shark does have a point. Maybe it is because we haven't heard a lot of details about it, but to me FE seems to be more about exploration and combat, and less about building a civilization. The removal of dynasties and simplification of city building (I also recall this being said, because city management was too complicated somehow) and population growth are some indications of this. Only the dev journal you reposted the opening post from casts some doubt about this. If I'm right about this then your ideas don't really fit in the game i guess.
That being said, I really hope I'm wrong about this. The technological development you describe above is pretty much what I was hoping EWoM would have, spanning from getting the basic nessesities for your first handfull of people to managing a continent spanning empire.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what FE will be about, but if the civilization building part of the game has been put on the back burner then I wouldn't be adverse to starting a mod that incorporates some of your ideas above.
I love the smell of snark in the morning.
Anyway, as I've said in that long thread, your ideas sound great to me. Very imaginative and could add a lot to the atmosphere of the game.
I see a problem in ideas like this though because of engine limitations. Best would be, if one decides on something we could lock out another research, but don't think that this is possible, thus the following will be a little bit clunky. Let's say we make three starting techs essential for food production, one would be an agriculture based on wheat grains, one on rice grains and one on animal husbandry. (I'm not very good at names, so I just take the descriptive ones for now.)
Obviously numbers are just examples and subject to tweaking, since we don't know much yet about how they will play out in FE.
Now that the wall of text has crit you for over 9000, let's make a TL;DR:
Cereal grains:
Rice grains:
Animal husbandry:
Oh well, that is still a bit too long, let's try even shorter:
Cereal grains: Fast growth, good defense against magic
Rice grains: High prestige, no horses, high dexterity, water element bonus.
Animal husbandry: Lower food, strong military units.
Some examples for how to use them:
Most of that stuff helps in early game, since you can concentrate on getting more food while at the same time getting some other bonus before you spread out to other possible research paths. On which food you ultimately decide may also depend where you start. You begin in the swamp? Go for rice grains. Near mountains without much plain land? Animal husbandry may be the right choice for you.
If techs could lock out other techs, this could make such a choice in the beginning have long term consequences, or one could move the penalties to other food resources to the beginning techs, whichever would be more fun and perhaps less complicated.
Anyway, keep on dreaming I guess. ^^
Naturally, I don't expect my tastes in the tech aspect of the game to be everyone else's, but even if it's not the focus, like you said, I don't understand why it wouldn't fit. Just because a game does one thing well, doesn't mean that other things should be simplified just to highlight those aspects when it doesn't complicate things substantially. And I don't think that more choice in technology would. I don't think that anyone would argue that the game is too complex.
The way that I had kind of thought about it was to just create custom tiles in the tile editor that had tech prereqs to harvest them that could themselves be worked into a more interwoven tech tree. I like your ideas, but I don't even think that it has to be that complicated.
Anyway, I hate it when things get harped on ad nauseum, especially when they can be worked on from our end. The moral of the thread is that one customer is kind of disappointed with the technology tree (for all that's worth), and thinks that Stardock can do better. Your own mileage may vary.
I like reading threads like this to see how different people would propose something should work. I suppose we'll have a better idea once we see more of how the new tree will work. I know that the change for refferencing weapons and armor perked my interest by allowing art assets to put to a greater range of use with less work (such as not needing to make a race specific copy of something when the body type is the same as a default unit).
Another option would to be able to build different types of resources on the existing food tiles (effectively allowing the same thing as suggested).
I am no good at modding, but I would like to support in ways I can. I have been yelling about similar things for more than a year now, most notably cross-tech interactions for new researchable abilities, like here in On Research and Technology.
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