I don't like playing as advent in multiplayer games.. guess why? Best guesses win karma?
<following guesses dont count: Cos u suck, Cos u r a noob, Cos advent dont like u etc etc>
Delete: Darts.
Add: Allegiance 2.
Hostility tree is fine. The harmony tree needs something worthwhile at the 4-7 lab level. A nice buff to resource focus to make it actually usable would be a great start.
Karma Issued-- but keep posting for more karma:
So the question remains.. whom in the development team actually believed the advent was a race that can stand toe to toe with the others during multi-player games? Why has it taken so long for them to realize they can't compete? Or can they? R we missing something?
As of version 1.18, Advent was dominating the other factions in military battles, and it took a lot of expertise to beat Advent with either TEC or Vasari. It wasn't impossible, but it was very similar to how playing Advent against TEC or Vasari feels today; an uphill battle with a hint of masochism.
The patch 1.19 changed this fundamentally. The Illuminator bug was fixed, revealing that the Advent LRF was actually a mediocre unit rather than a harbringer of doom. The second change was that the T0 opener got nerfed, which made LRF significantly more challenging to counter in the early-game, and increased their dominance substantially. The effects weren't pretty; early-game was now LRF-dominated, but Advent had a sub-par LRF.
Now weakened with their strongest unit essentially out of commission and their opener game extremely limited and difficult to pull off, Advent's other weaknesses (which previously were holding their immense power in check) began to haunt them. Their economy is very limited and they have a hard time fighting a battle of attrition, their harmony tech tree is utter garbage, they have no real answer to phase missiles, their capital ships are relatively fragile and they lack battlefield repair. Without the decisive military edge they once enjoyed, Advent became a faction with far too many weaknesses and not nearly enough compensating strengths.
I don't know why the developers haven't fixed this yet. Keep in mind that Advent went from a nearly unstoppable force of doom to being outmatched just because the damage output of two of its units got reduced. This is a faction that, due to its wide range of synergies, could very easily swing from underpowered to overpowered with a relatively moderate change. In that respect, I think with balancing Advent we need to tread very carefully.
DATE: 6/29/2011
team1: [DT]Star Player, [DT]Howthe?, Dwish, kbroke
team2: Auqia, [_]-HIGGY, DaKnife, ManiacGonzo
heres the link: http://www.gamefront.com/files/20497339/AutoRecord-06292050.record
I noticed how auqia played in the DT replay.. He completely rushes for econ then mains defense vessels and Crusaders. He makes sure he gets all the laser upgrades, the tier 1 hull upgrade and then all the plasma upgrades .He also makes good use of the Guardian repulse ability to protect starbases.
Hes play style is so aggressive its fun to watch and hes very dependent on shielding, maxing it out with all the upgrades by the end of the game. He neglected armor and by that time howthe and the other rampant tec player in the opposing team had cobalts with up to 8-9 armor in the late game and assailants too. The game had no clear winner and it ended due to massive lag. By this time crusaders had armor 5 while he continued to research more armor upgrades.
The most noticeable thing about his play style is econ was a over 100crd producing powerhouse. Being at a safe spot on the map played a role but the same could have been said for others. He also micros insanely well and never stands still with defense vessels taking advantage of their many turrets firing at enemies in all directions while moving. It was excellent how he tore apart assailants while they chase him around gravity wells.
So what did he achieve:
1.Hes military didnt depend on capital ships
2.Crusaders had a weapon advantage over all types armor and he had them in great numbers.
3.Defense vessels in numbers are ruthless if micro is taking place while taking down enemy bombers.
4.Loves to repulse (guardians), effective vs non-LRF (does it work against strike craft as-well and up-link with javelins?)
5. Hes allies supplemented hes fleet with illums and carriers with bombers to kill Star Bases and the remaining capital ships.
The game was good apart from the lag however the introduction of the overseer by howthe caused him problems and i think he neglected the Subjugator with preserverence for too long towards the end. Maybe he hates to stand still and channel its ability (dont really know) but what he does worked and was competitive.
Auqia is definitely a strong Advent player.
Doesn't work against strike craft. Javelis don't even need uplink to out-range it, but you can still push them around. This can be useful for splitting up the enemy forces, covering a retreating unit (great for keeping capital ships alive) and pushing enemies into range of units like destras or defense vessels.
I can't view the replay currently, so I can only speculate based on your writeup, but it sounds like he was outplaying his opponent in just about every way. He got to open with a strong economy and wasn't punished for doing so, his defense vessel fleet was never properly countered, and he got to mature into repulsion relatively early. You describe a superior economy, fleet size, and tech level; that's going to be pretty devastating regardless of your faction.
Remember, Advent is weak, but not unplayable. If you can find some way to overcome their weaknesses, they do have some redeeming strengths (repulsion is a big one). If an opponent plays naively, a smart Advent can really punish them. Defense Vessels is one of my favourite openers for Advent, since it preys on the tendency of TEC and Vasari players to lean heavily on the powerful LRF. Unfortunately, it's also very predictable and is easily countered. Massed flak versus a fleet of primarily LRF is clean, but against a diversified force with a large wing of light frigates it gets very messy very fast. Again, not unwinnable, but it gets very challenging for the Advent to stay on top.
You don't play Advent because you are a religious bigot and don't believe in Unity.
BLASPHEMER!
You will not be spared in the coming great galactic purge.
I use to play advent then i gave up.. I still love them but won't use them online..
Darvin its funny how things look... i laughed when i saw advent raining supreme for so long considering there weak till i realized Auqui is a top player on ico then i was like damn. Seen [DT] tyr suffer for an advent start. The again anyone can with any race if rushed.
Its good to see how people make use of all the races regardless of their weakness. If u ask me 1v1 isn't advents best situation but with allies supporting them to build up an econ then there good. I first played advent, suffered, 1 a few during lan games, Changed to tec and won more games. Changed to vasari --always win team and 1v1.. Overseer is evil--enough said.
So how good is the defense vessel?
I have to warn u if advent lock planets on small maps by tier 2 and keep u pre-occupied they can have a nasty revenge for calling them weak when there econ is up and running.
The defense vessel isn't alone in being great. The TEC Garda and Vasari Sentinel both work exceptionally well. The Garda is the toughest of the three, the Sentinel has a wicked special ability plus phase missiles, and the defense vessel has the best damage output of the three. Overall, though, they're all superb units and back in 1.18 it was the Vasari Sentinel that was squeeking out wins against massed Advent Illuminators.
Collectively, these units are referred to as Flak Frigates. They're low-cost, have exceptionally good durability, and their damage output is very nice. If you can get all their gun ports firing, there are very few units in the early-game that can match that kind of performance. They'll counter LRF, Scouts, Fighters, and in sufficient bulk even bombers. Flaks are easily the game's most solid and reliable unit.
The flak frigate is countered by light frigates, and en-mass a LF swarm versus a flak swarm will quickly turn into an outright slaughter. Even if the opponent just mixes in light frigates (or flaks of their own), another big problem with flaks shows up; they cannot specify targets for all their banks. Many of their attacks will strike the medium-type light frigates which takes very little damage. Against diversified fleets, this can substantially reduce the damage output of massed flaks. Against TEC, you run into another devil: the Hoshiko. Because flaks deal damage to multiple targets simultaneously, the hoshiko has a much easier time cleaning it up, and as a heavy-type unit are largely impervious to damage from flaks and can absorb lots of damage from them.
Overall, the flak frigate is an incredible unit with unrivaled performance, but held back by some key weaknesses. Keep in mind that both TEC and Vasari are capable of these flak tactics as well. The difference is that Advent lacks strong alternatives, forcing them into this fallback, while TEC and Vasari have many other options and likely won't pick massed flak (particularly against Advent, who has the strongest light frigate).
Advent has a wicked game once they're mature, but the problem I have is that a good TEC player won't let you live to see it, and a Vasari player has an even scarier game-plan once they reach higher tech levels. Advent does have some options, and if you can get ahead economically that will help enormously. Unfortunately, there is no assurance you can do this, and the necessary Progenitor opener isn't very useful against Vasari once the military battle begins.
As I said, it's not unwinnable. I'm always a big fan of the underdog factions, and in the current version that's Advent. I still remember playing Vasari and TEC back in 1.181 and desperately fighting against the more powerful Advent, often squeeking out a win by superior tactics. Now those same tactics will absolutely steamroll Advent.
Its safe to assume Auqia choose a Flak knowing his opponent would counter with Light frigates(which they did) which meant no more phase missiles or lrm. It explains why he only went for all the Shield Upgrades and Guardians and forgot about hull and armor till the end. The good part is he always had Crusaders with with him.
So lets make it clear once and for all. Your on a small map..:
What u gonna do.
1. Halcyon ofcourse..
next?
Basically that's the only step you'll always be taking. Unit selection and proportions, as well as your tech strategy, should be based on scouting. There are just too many variables on a random scenario. Even a "small" scenario may mean anywhere from 2-5 jumps between homeworlds, and the intervening planets will greatly affect your approach.
Well...if you are specifying small map, you might as well specify which faction you are fighting because that makes a huge difference...
In general though, I would advocate rushing for that second Halcyon if you are on fast or faster game speed...I generally put AA on both Halcyons for the extra SC, and usually go for all fighters...this gives you a very useful counter for bombers on other cap carriers (including SB) and also provides you something to counter LRFs (because relying on flak/scouts is very risky)...
In general though pressure is the only thing you can do with Advent...you have to constantly pressure your enemy and prevent them from having a comparable fleet size or comparable economy...mass scouts+LFs does work if you are a better player...ultimately though, Advent play lies on seriously outplaying your opponent...that means more innovation and creativity, so really you can't make up a game plan for Advent....
so what about the desciple? I hear talk about they got the best LF. really they drop like flies? I think they really need the Subjugator to be present.
Yes Auqia probably went flak to counter assailants therefore phase missile spam. With this he actually managed to multiple things.
Beside forcing vasari player to abandon assailants he also neutralized vasari capitals which 90% online are still carriers. He also forced 2 path weapon upgrade research and enemy to use skirmishers who until properly upgraded are worst LF in the game. He also forced vasari to rely on SB more. As well as he left himself option for only 1 path weapon upgrade for himself.
Disciple drop like a flies but they are so cheap they give low exp points and en masse they are massively effective. Especially with energy boost from carriers.
I don't remember last when I saw subjugator online. They are rubbish.
With all unit types there seems to be a threshold after which they become massively more effective.
Game Plan
With an economy vs a Va-sari Player i'd go defense vessels and crusaders, research shields, guardians and throw drone hosts with bombers.
Suppose he counters with Light Frigates.. I'm going to do? Nothing right? Guardians stop pulse weapons and shields high as they can be. With spare change drop in a mother ships to recharge the guardians shields along with the fleet and on top add a revelation to reduce the cool-down for guardians and mother-ships?
Disciples
I really like malice-really do and once that threshold is reached to the number of desciples then its beautiful to see how much chaos it causes.
Gets better when its a mass of crusaders.. the damage is severe. Its using focus fire knowing others will feel the pain afterwards.
Caps
Which Concludes 1 thing. Apart from the Halcyon as an opener- all the other caps play a much better role during the late game than all the other faction's caps.
E.g The revelation that cools down mother-ships shield recharge/malice and the guardians shielding umbrella. Its also a planet killer.
Mother-Ships: once sufficient guardians are in the fleet.
Revelation: once Mother-Ships and sufficient Guardians are in the fleet.
Economy
Start: Quickly colonize as many asteroids and planets using scouts, colonizers and cap(s). There go trade along with culture in the right spots
Or
Prepare for a rush if in a bad spot.. Halcyon(s), Carriers, Defense Vessel?
What he will probably do is that he will either cut you off with sb or attack by planting sb directly on your HW. Flak is not enough. Flak doesn't kill SB especially if he manually uses repair cloud on his caps. So you need to mix it either with disciples which have same weapon upgrade as flak or go for bombers. If you committed to flak and you got cca 20 of them I don't think you will have enough cash to build enough ilums to contest his SB.
I found it is best way to hit his caps while sb is building so he either loose them or he has to retreat. When his repair and fighter cover are gone SB is easy target to bombers.
I'd be very wary about building that revelation...in large team games I have found one ship with clairvoyance to be a valuable team asset but in general not worth using otherwise...the other two abilities are questionable at best...reverie is a great ability but that is really the only good ability on the revelation, so you face a huge opportunity cost picking that ship...honestly, detonate antimatter is a better interrupt and does more to counter annoying capital ship abilities, you'd be better of with the Radiance...
Guidance really isn't all that useful...for late game situations where you have 4+ capital ships, maybe...but if your reasoning for building the Revelation is solely to use guidance to help spam the Prog's abilities, you'd be far better off simply building another Progenitor...
Greg brings up the greatest weakness of Advent: an inability to deal with high priority targets early on...only half of illuminators damage is frontal, and defense vessels will do nothing against caps or SBs...crusaders simply are too little too late to deal with a Vasari SB rush...if you are on the defensive as Advent that early in the game, then it's over...you have to be extremely aggressive and proactive as advent early on...
Rushing crusaders ain't bad in general but I wouldn't bank on it carrying you mid game...bombers are the best counter against HCs and most nearly all players will have a ton of them mid-game...
As far as capital ships, I would strongly consider a Rapture as you're 3rd pick...vengeance + malice is one of the best things Advent has to deal with massed LRFs, and vertigo is not a bad ability either...even concentration aura is good for countering LRFs since it boosts the damage that fighters do (more powerful bombers has it's uses too)...
Early game, I would focus on colonizing and be very wary of going for trade that early unless you are an eco player in a large team game...Advent needs to be hell bent on having more units than its enemies early on to prevent itself from being crushed...that means less vertical growth, less trade, and less harmony tree techs...the best early Advent fleet composition will be of seekers, disciples, and defense vessels but the exact ratios are entirely dependent on the situation...you can't make a game plan for it unless you are playing an enemy that is very predictable...
Advent has great anti colonizing option early game. I find it pain in the a** when I have to fight culture while expanding.
T0 is very strong so its quite safe for advent to go 1 mil and 2 civ labs at start.
Wouldn't you want to go 1 mil and 2 civ as any faction? The only exception I can think of would be a frontline TEC who wants LRMs ASAP...
Out of curiosity Greg, do you generally go for culture or trade first as Advent?
It depends how many good planets I have nearby. If I got only 1 useful asteroid 1pj away then trade if there are some good planets then culture. I also want to optimize my trade line so i might wait with culture until better planet for culture centre is colonized.
anyonee made noise to the fact the illuminator can only fire with 2 banks from its turrets at long range.. DPS is low so it should cost less?
I don't get 1 thing.. was the illuminator bug a bug and was the fix just a nerf? Really think theres a conspiracy behind all this.. What was the damage output before the fix? Anyone remember
If i remember correctly ilum had shadow damage. What I mean is that there was some lingering damage that was effective over time. I think it lasted 2 sec or so.
And iluminator works best when surrounded from all sides so you need to micro it.
Most ships have "backloaded" damage....this means the damage occurs all at once after the graphics effects...logically this would make sense for something like a missile that does damage only after the projectile has reached it's target (something that takes quite some time)...
Illuminators have "overtime" damage...this means that DPS is done during the entire effect...logically this would make sense for something like a beam that is hitting its target for a period of time...
An advantage of overtime damage is that it can be easier to kill targets with very low health that are just about to phase jump..."backloaded" weapons would suffer from a delay that may allow the target to escape...in practice however these effects are pretty much negligible...
The illuminator bug lied with how the game treated "overtime" damage...basically, damage was done for a longer period of time that it should have been, resulting in more net damage...IIRC this bug affected all weapons with the "overtime" flag, which would include all Advent beam weapons (so actually, Advent bombers would have been more powerful too)...
This is at least my understanding of the bug...if I am wrong hopefully someone will correct me...
This bug was fixed, and the illuminator now works properly...the illuminator was not "nerfed" in that its stats were not changed...rather, it simply no longer benefited from a very powerful bug...
LRFs in general are the single most damaging ship type; they are second only to ogrovs in their ability to destroy SBs, and are the best counter to capital ships...this puts the illuminator at a huge disadvantage, because only half of its damage is frontal...if LRFs were only meant to counter a certain type of frigate (say, only LFs), then this wouldn't be so much of a problem...
There are other issues with Illuminators...for one, both the LRM and Kanrak have abilities that make them do more damage...the Illuminators ability, however, does not increase its damage output in any way...in fact, the illuminator's deceptive illusion in general is just awful...
Illuminators also have far less range than kanraks and especially LRMs...that Illuminators require 3 mil labs just makes the entire ship pretty pathetic...
What the Illuminator needs is more frontal damage...I believe the best solution would be to keep the illuminator's overall DPS the same, but to transfer some of the side damage to the front...basically, illuminators should have almost as much frontal damage as LRMs, and the rest of the damage would be from the side beams...
Illuminators would still be inferior to other LRFs, but at least not by as much...
it has its uses
1. units with multiple banks dont know who to fire at with non-main banks. (starbases, flak, illums and cap ships)
2. takes up enemy micro time to hit *real* ships or lowers their dps for players that don't micro well
3. I think abilities are just as likely to pick a fake ships as a real one (demo bots, malice, distortion field, charged missile and others). (not sure, just assuming.)
4. If someone sees illums blowing up they may assume they are doing better then they actually are.
5. You cant tell how many illums the enemy has at a glance you must look and waste more time.
Deceptive illusion grants a 60% chance that all targets shooting at the illuminator at the time of ability activation will change targets...so, first off, it only draws some of the fire...furthermore, the other 40% chance simply is the chance your enemy will pick another target...most likely, that other target will not be an illusion copy...
So yes, there is some inefficiency resulting from selecting new targets (which may not be damaged yet) but in general its not going to make that much of a difference...
Most importantly, there is a crucial consideration that must be made with deceptive illusion: the illusion copies themselves temporarily consume fleet supply...
This means that if you go into battle with many Illuminators and they use this ability, all your free fleet supply just disappeared for 2 minutes (so no queing up ships)...furthermore, as you lose ships it is possible that additional illuminators will call the ability, limiting your efforts to que up replacements for a long period of time...
If you do go into battle with no or very little free fleet supply, then the illuminators will not be able to use this ability, making it useless...
In one case, you get penalized by the ability...in the other case, the ability is useless...
Considering that Advent's inherent problem with Illuminators is there inability to kill high priority targets, Advent more than anyone needs an ability that increases firepower...
Deceptive illusion does have advantages, but it also has some very serious drawbacks...even without those drawbacks, I would argue the ability is still inferior to cluster bombs and charged missiles...Illuminators don't need more survivability, they need more frontal damage and this ability doesn't help in that regard...
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