Basically this is for all the players that wish they could of been in the first dominion 3 game and missed the chance or had some bad luck and were knocked out of the first game.
Guidelines:
1) yea,its a noob game,so lets see if we can keep it to under 10 MP games played. Naturally exceptions can be made hence the guidelines category. just please be honest and state your experience level upfront.
2) We'll vote on a map to use and what mods if any.
3) Feel free to suggest away here,I'm just starting the bandwagon not trying to be the band leader.
Players:
1) Abysia player........... EmersonPF
2) Arcoscephale............. Rasael
3) Caelum.................... louist
4) C'tis........................ ghostwes
5) Marverni.................. Tophat
6) Niefelheim............... Elana
7) Sauromatia............. bpalczewski
8) Ulm....................... Shadowtounge
10 MP games? I think I'm actually under 10, or right close to it, but no, I don't think I fit the criterion of a noob
Of course I haven't played MP in 2 years either.
Ahh well, good luck getting people in, and I'll join if you want, but I'm fine if you don't feel I'm a good fit either.
I don't think I've got time for another one, but I've got a buddy looking to join. I'll send him your way.
I will get in if it can be late era, and if I can play R'yleh. Otherwise I will wait until I have time to create another game. That is the next race I want to try, and if I get involved in another game, it will be a while before I am free to add another.
How newb do you want it?
The easiest for new players would be a map that came with the game (or at least the map image), no mods, and direct connect (instead of pbem or some other method). But if you are running the game then its up to you.
I would suggest having people with two or less games of MP under their belt instead of ten. I know from our ongoing "Elementalists" game that the people who have played a few games already seem way above those of us who have not. Anyone who has played as much as ten MP games is very far from being a newbie, and I would hate to see the effect they had on a game with complete newbies. I'm certain that would be demoralizing to the newbies to say the least.
I think I'm content to stick with "Elementalists" for now but good luck with your game.
I mostly agree. with one exception...
If the 'vet' (s) are not playing to win so much as to help. I've done games where one player pretty much acted as a kind of guide for his 'partner'. But, that's not necessarily the idea here. I've also seen games where the 'newbs' are able enough to band together to take down the 'vets', and games where 'vets' are not allowed to NaP each other...
Though on the other hand, getting your ass kicked competently is a great learning tool as well. Newbs bashing on each other produces a winner too, just that the lessons learned may not be as helpful as otherwise. But still, to break the ice it is of course fine.
Mods and maps are really pretty trivial though in Dom3, I wouldn't worry overmuch about limiting either, well Maps in particular. Mods, probably just go vanilla, though some will argue that CBM should be the standard anyway. Doesn't matter that much really.
Well, I'm definitely in. I've done 2 MP games, and lost both horribly, so I'll qualify regardless of the criteria.
At this point with EmersonPF and myself we have 2 players. With 2 confirmed players I don't see a limiting what the definition of a noob is argument as productive.
Thranite,please direct your buddy to this thread.
Wonderloss we can put it to the group when we have a group. Map,time period and mods if any are all things up for discussion.
shadowtounge I tend to agree with you about learning more from being smacked around by a better player. I haven't had the true joy of getting my butt kicked by a Dom 3 vet,but I think it probably just a matter of time. i have no objection to you joining our merry little band.
ghostwes I am a more the merrier kind of guy. Right now we need more players to make this come off so we can be merry. The noobs aren't dropping all over themselves signing up.
GP1628.......Loosely noob oriented seems where we are headed. You interested in joining?
First map idea for us,how about the Faerun map? We want a map where there is enough dispersion that player empires are not on top of each other. Some room for expansion and getting into the game for all players.
Faerun?!?!?!?
Isn't that the 400+ province map???
I mean space is good, but that's... well crazy
And I'm more than happy to play in any capacity the other players feel is interesting, including not playing at all if you get enough noobs who don't want me there, even in a more 'coach' position.
So for some ideas on mods/maps/...
Mods, I'd say either CBM1.84, or vanilla. No point in adding different nations, no point in messing with various other 'cool' things in a learning game. And for what it's worth, since I've not played in so long, I'm not up to speed on the changes in patches or in 1.84, so no real advantage to me there.
Map... well actually I think that smaller is better for learning, else you can get overwhelmed by the mirco of having moderate to large empires. now that doesn't mean starting on top of each other, but 15 provinces per player is plenty, 20 is already a lot. And it's fun to have a 'big' game with lots of players, but it's not necessary for learning, indeed, as people get bigger the time investment in running the empire gets larger, and, well, might just be better to think 'small' to start.
With that in mind Aran (which is an included map) is pretty nice for 5-6 players, but not great for anyone who wants to play as a sea nation. Otherwise there are tons of custom maps of various sizes we can look through. Otherwise I'd stick to default settings for which ever age people like (I have no preference there, well I like EA, but meh, I wouldn't play Niefel in this game anyway).
Anyway, my thoughts, but I'm incredibly flexible
If you like the Faerun map for the specially designed theme provinces that are such a nice surprise, then you no longer have to use that mape. There is a program called Semirandom which will scatter those provinces and more into any map you choose.
As far as mods I agree that its EITHER CBM or vanilla. CBM1.82 has 13,703 modding commands. Its become either learn to play with Vanilla OR learn to play with CBM because its too confusing to try and do both.
I was wondering how the game would be setup. Personally I find PbEM a pain. Direct connect to a server is more like solo play so it seems easier for newbies.
I just thought Id be helpful. Im pretty sure I dont qualify for a newbie game.
I'm not sure those faerun provinces are a good idea for a noob game. I also have no interest in playing on a map that big
CBM does change quite a few things, but the number of which a given nation will have to deal with is not that huge. It's not as though a player cannot play in either, but obviously you have to pick one or the other, I don't have a preference.
PbEM or direct, either is fine, llamasever is the way I used to play it, and that worked just great, don't really know how it's done now though.
As to being a noob... well clearly it's a question of what you want out of the game, and what you're willing to put in it as far as 'helping'. It's great to waffle stomp weaklings, but it's counterproductive when they are noobs
I won't be playing a blitz nation, or a 'power' nation, assuming I play at all
In my opinion, there is no point in forcing anyone making bad moves just to "help the noobies".
As far as learning goes, it's the same think as with chess - if you don't play the best moves, you just nurture feeling of false safety in the new players, and help build false self-confidence that is bound to be shattered later when other players will move against him without these artificial restraints. Moreover, you are twisting the balance of the game, because rush nations need to kill early to capitalize on their advantage that is bound to vanish later. Everyone has single player for learning - there you can try builds, spell combos and equipment against a semi-dumb AI as much as you want. But you enter multiplayer to test what you learned here, so what would be the point to expect semi-dumb human player?
Moreover, how can you feel happy after the game, when you know that you won just because someone went soft and nice on you? When you die early due to a mistake, at least you can learn from that and not repeat it in later games (and yes, when you die early, it's most probably due to a mistake). You save a lot of time by not pursuing a false victory you don't desereve anyway, and you can try again immediately.
And if you expect "niceness" from others, how far should it go? Should someone be nice enough to lose only to keep you in the game?
Honest competetion is much greater gift to you from your fellow players than false softness that only distorts the game. When you are new, expect to lose - it's true in any game. When you enter a poker or chess tournament, no one will play badly only to make you feel good, and nobody sane expects that from anyone.
Just my 2 cents.
Well, I think there is a difference between a vet playing his best, and a vet who gets involved in a newb game so he can wipe the floor using overpowered tactics that are difficult for the inexperienced to counter. Of course, it is a fine line, and not something an observer can really judge. As you said, certain nations rely on an early rush to get started. Only the vet in question would know his intent. I would like the think that people here are respectful enough that a vet would not crash a newb-targeted game with the intent of being a dick, and stroking his own ego with an easy victory.
Perhaps an interesting compromise would be to let the veteran play whatever he/she wants, but then have all the newbs working cooperatively to take said veteran down. Give the veteran a few turns head start maybe. I think that might be a fun way to address balance issues, in both experience and nation strength.
Hmm...
Not sure where you get the 'make bad moves to help the newbies' from, I look at it more as a coach, giving advice, pointing out things. Whether as an ally or foe, the dialogue is what's important for learning, as much as the result. And by no means am I trying to make myself out as some kind of godlike Dom3 player, I'm just someone who has more experience, and thus more familiarity with different nuances. Yes, I have won a couple MP games (non noob, but not so stacked with great players either), but that doesn't really mean that much necessarily, considering how much the element of luck plays, as well as diplomacy.
I expect most people in a noob game to 'feel good' if they learn from the game, and enjoy the process, win or lose or wherever in between they land. But yes, there are mechanisms to keep losing players in the game which don't involve anyone else playing badly, sort of against the point of pretender gods, but meh, their human avatars have other goals sometimes than pure domination
I'm not a huge fan of the 'take all comers' either, but it is an option I'm not opposed to. Though it depends on the odds. Usually more interesting if there are 2 'vets' who can't work together, but at least to spread the pain around a little. Also not necessarily ideal for a 'learning' game, unless the vet really is so nice that they are going to give you advice on how to crush them while you are actually trying to do it That and it does more or less force the 'vet' into a rather aggressive play style, which may not be that interesting for whichever opponent he finds first.
I guess I look at this game as being an opportunity for me to ease back in as well, not taking a rush nation, not worrying about whatever particular power combo, and just playing a new nation in a new way to see what I can manage. If that's 'playing badly' then I think you need to relax and not worry about how other people can enjoy playing a game, other than just completely optimized crushing of everyone....
Well, you did pick Hinom in the other game... I should have known
Hmmmn,interesting discussion here............still don't see many new players though. In terms of a map,bigger with some breathing room is better IMHO. Then again as i said off the bat its open to the players to decide. If a large map makes rush tactics difficult,then TDB from my perspective. I have no interest in rush games whatsoever.
As far as mods go,I think on doing a good deal of reading that you gentlemen are correct and its vanilla or CBM. For a noob game I'd stick with vanilla as CBM changes the game a good deal. Though in the long run I'll probably become a CBM player.
And yes there are ways to have vets in a noob game and keep the game competitive,thats what I'd like to explore as there is a significant lack of noobs to make up our numbers here.
Map size is important, but the measure should be provinces per player, not just total provinces. I'm not interested in a blitz game, but not everyone will agree on what a rush is.
Anyway, my vote is for no more than 20 provinces per player, else the game will muddle for those who manage to grow past their alotted 20. Noobs don't need to deal with the micro of running a largeish empire in my opinion, they need to figure out how to get there, but it's not much fun once you are there, because that's one place where the 'vets' will have an advantage, just in not getting bored scripting and issuing so many ritual/forge orders every turn.
I'm open to anything relating to how vets interact with noobs in the game as well. I'm open to starting the game with as few as 5 or 6 as well. Big games sound really cool, but they are fraught with many issues as well, just due to having more people who might flake.
That is a very valid point,people who might flake out and just drop,basically spoiling the game for those who put the time into it.
Some 20 provinces each max per player sounds fine,you are correct in noting the micromanagement problem. And looking at the Fearun map,it has a ton of provinces.
I think trying to stress diplomacy will help put a break on noob bashing. Then again if the fates align against your empire,well its an unjust and deadly world out there.
So lets hear from some people who want to play........
indeed, I would prefer less than 20, but have no interest in more than 20.
So long as the map has balanced start locations you can manage with fewer and still have time to expand, fool around, before winding up in it.
I have played one game, essentially wiped out on turn three. Would be interested in a a second game... but I feel someone who has played 10 games, MP is probably way too advanced for me to consdier playing. I am looking to learn how to play against people- not to provide opportunity for the chess player types to stroke their egos. If a newby game comes up... I'm interested - but 10MP games - that seems, in my subjective opinion - to be a more expreienced 'newby' than i'm feeling comfortable with.
Wiped out on turn 3... exactly how did it happen that fast? I typically haven't even met an opponent by turn 3 in the few games I've played. Did they do a double bless, start right next to you, and just rush right on you?
How did i get wacked by turn 3?
It happened because i attacked a neutral province adjacient to my home castle. I won, but took many losses (support troops, not leaders). The very same turn Hinnom rolled in and attacked the province, now defended by my weakened forces (with no PD to help). My pretender and HP were killed. Almost everyone in the game (except the player who benefited from this) agreed that the initial set up - especially with the water player dropping out at the last minute (and this giant player being on that coast!) - was unbalanced. They also agreed that it was 'unlucky.' My position wasn't actually totally eliminated for several more turns. But losing 70% of your position, by turn 3, and not being able to even generate points to get the pretender 'resurrected,' definatly made any continued play, merely an exercise in pleasing the other players by 'putting up a fight' with almost no choices... just like a mosquitoe dodging a sledgehammer. I had promised not to drop out, if losing, and to put up a fight. So i kept my word and put up a fight. Since i had almost no income, and few effective troops / leaders of any sort - I resorted to using words to continue fighting off that player (Ala Diplomacy) - and trying to provide resources to othe rplayers in such a way as to bolster them. but I never actually had opportunity to even attempt to develop a position, and do anything. ALL the items I had read on line indicated that your home castle and adjacant provinces were 'safe' for 5 turns or so. I actually feel i did not play Dom3 MP, but instead a 'mod' of diplmacy - a game of words, and misdirection. It is what it is.
What did i learn? (1) If you start right next to one of the three overpowered nations, (the three giant positions) playing without the balance mod, (and not a giant nation yourself) you are done for, no matter how clever, sneaky, or wise you are. (2) I probably need to play (and study) like 2,000 solo games so i can have a chance against players who seem to have memorized the manual, and the stats on leaders, troops, spells. (3) If I am wacked again before turn five, I will totally hole up, and have even more fun with the roleplaying aspect. i love writing, so why not practice?
I had thought playing against to AI to be less fun. Howeveer, if the experience of my first 'game' of Dom3 is indicative of how it plays generally, then either the intiial set up needs to be better balanced, and/or the balance mod should be used. Othetrf brand new players should not have to experience what I did. Perhaps i need to always take one of the three overpowerd pretenders, and 'drop out' before the first turn, if I don't get one of the three. Also, perhaps, for the sake of playing, players might be proscribed to a reduced list of nations, to eliminate the initial player rush, and keep all positions viable for a little longer. This way the opportunity to actually learn will be extended without making 'some' players 'hold back.' Yes, it would eliminate one aspect of the game... but that can always be used in another game, yes? I'm just thinking of ways to set the initial game in such a manner that newbys get a chance to actually play some, before they get nailed, and get some real, actual, experience playing Dom3 MP, (and not just Diplomacy - the game). I definately don't want a game where some players are holding back.
The best chess games, for me, are against someone who is a little bit better than me. Anyone who gets checkmated in 10 moves, just doesn't know how to play at all. But a chess game against someone who is significantly better than i becomes boring. Oh, I play cat and mouse, and make them pay for every positional advantage they attempt to gain. Also, a game against some one who is much less skilled than I is also boring. I think I feel the same way about Dom3 (as i do other games). This Elementalists Dom3 game was my first foray into playing any on line game. I sense it was not a typical start, but neither was the result caused by stupidity.
I have no problem learning the balance mod, since so may threads (on other sites) indicate that it has widespread acceptance as an improvement to the core game - even though, as somebody noted above, it does change the base game significantly.
I've played some Single player and I'd like to try mulitplayer. Could I play Arco?
CPB is good although I don't really know the differences between it and Vanilla.
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