I must confess that I actually thought I hated this man and everything he was about until I started experiencing an overload of inaccurate and fictitious information the USG keeps pounding out and calling it the truth … so I decided to try an independent review of what I thought I knew and didn’t really. So I never watched or read anything Moore was involved with but I was more than willing to tell you how screwed up he was. So I rented the movie from Netflix and watched it … and I was amazed.
I have watched it twice now and I cannot find one shred of much information that is not factual or accurate. Beyond some idiosyncrasies in his sense of humor (they are funny); he presents very valid arguments and backs them up with documentation and interviews. He brings to light many of the things I have discovered in my own research into deceit, terrorism and the USG.
When I was a liberal (before I knew better) the only accurate information had to come from another liberal else it was a lie??? Later when I made my second mistake and became a conservative I learned the error of my ways … the truth could only be had from like ilk … so imagine my confusion when I called the neolibs and neocons for what they are and went independent. Suddenly, I have no source of valid information at all now (seemingly hehehe). I have had no success at all trying to walk the moderate tightrope between all the sharks without one side or the other dragging me down, go figure.
As far as Democrats/Republicans are concerned, their only care about the independent majority is how many they can acquire each election. But no matter which side is the best recruiter or who gets most independent votes … matters that concern the moderates will largely be ignored or sidelined and the neo-politicians will go their own course virtually unrestricted and completely unaccountable.
Problem is BOTH will lie... but only one will lie for the right reasons.
I've seen too much fabricated "evidence" far too late for me to be convinced of all this conspiracy theory. If it wasn't published within a few years of the event, then it has been spun. Even computer modeling and rendering can be done within that time frame, and was done. ( I know, I DO that type of thing )
The only questions I have are in relation to Enron and building 7? Too convenient for all that evidence to simply be destroyed. Now that is where the theory can go ape wild....
Michael Moore minces everyone's words right and left.
FEAR - The greatest propaganda tool ever to be used. The more fear creeps in the more rationality pours out. In other words a little fear goes a long way. As far back as I can remember, we as Americans have been herded through the manipulation of fear. How many years was the “communist threat” used and it never happened. Gosh, they are among our best friends now, go figure. There was the imminent threat from Granada; there was the imminent threat of invasion (?) from Nicaragua, and of course there was the Taliban in Afghanistan that threatened the USG? We all know about al-Qaeda, hum … or do you? Saddam of course was presented as a dire threat to the USG and the world at large and with his al-Qaeda connections and all, but only the patriotic American sheeple believed this. The following clip does a good job of explaining this much better, but I do try, hehehe. I believe 'a clear and present danger' was the term of old.
Actually, you, BoobzTwo, are missing half of my statement, "flatly refuses to show any footage of Iraqi military causalities when they far out weigh the civilian ones, and disrespects the United States military, that fights everyday to keep the United States of America safe, by showing a military funeral and a military amputee without the consent of the family and soldier, respectively." The disrespecting the US military part of my statement goes with what is after it, not with the part before it about Iraq. Michael Moore misrepresents Iraqi military targets as civilian targets, when civilians couldn't go anywhere near those places, the list goes on and on. I did read the entire list of 59 deceits.
This is a good example American hypocrisy. American lives are important and Iraqi (Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Libyan) non-combatant civilians are less so? We can go to their countries and blow them to bits and if they fight back they are terrorists and we will crush them and kill most of the fighters that would have been needed for internal protection. I am tired of this self-righteous attitude that Americas’ shit doesn’t stink. Where have you been? Look around you at the masterful and stink less way the USG is taking care of its own people … and they care about someone else’s people, give it a brake.
If you respect the military of this country, you are a bigger fool than even I thought. The men and women that do all the dirty work (not their fault) for the USG, but they are the best in the world, Moore expresses this in his movie that you watched. Forgive me for not knowing what goes with what, before or after, it still makes no sense. And of all my mistakes, I should have searched you out for the strategic targets to be hit in Iraq, when all I did was look at the death tolls, go figure. Knock the chip off your shoulder and face some facts. Moore does not impugn our soldiers; he is going after the USG for fabricating the reasons for sending our loved ones there in the first place to die. Then you wouldn’t have to be so concerned about showing caskets and whatnot of which I care little. You are not going to gain any actual knowledge of your own until you stop getting your information from lists and doing some of the research on your own, is all.
We don't show Iraqi or Afghanistani military casualties on TV either.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
Burden of 'proof' is on the conspiracy nuts. Rational people don't waste too much time defending reality.
I'm not going to say that I disagree with you outright, but I just don't trust anyone who looks at war in purely black-and-white terms like this. War is a costly, bloody, unfortunate business, but that doesn't mean that wars aren't worth fighting.
I think that it's important to note that something like 30,000 French civilians were killed during the Allied invasion of Normandy, many by US naval and air bombardment. Tragic? Yes. But I'd still say things would be much, much worse today if the US hadn't entered the war.
Having said that, WWII and Iraq/Afganistan were entered for very different reasons, and I absolutely respect everyones opinion about their worth, and wouldn't particularly care to divulge my own.
People die in war. Some of those people are invariably non-combatants. It's been the case in every war since the dawn of time.
Abraxas hit the nail on the head. Civilian casualties are part of warfare, and war isn't a pretty thing. BT, you seem to subscribe to the idea that war is a somewhat gentlemenly affair when prosecuted for morally correct reasons.
Which is total bullcrap. War is messy, it is costly, it is a very unpleasant and unglamorous thing. That's reality.
FACT: Some windows near the impact area did indeed survive the crash. But that's what the windows were supposed to do—they're blast-resistant. Sooo, the fire was so intense that it vaporized the titanium, steal, bodies, aircraft among many other things like 9 feet of steel reinforced concrete … but them damn windows sure are tough, come on. I haven’t found anything there besides the USG version of things.
hypocrisy
Try looking at the clip here ...
First, thank you, I always appreciate when these threads turn into a civilized discussion.
And yeah, I do know what you mean. But, I think that if you look a little bit, there is a fair analogy to be made between the Jewish population of Germany/Poland/elsewhere and the Kurds of Iraq. I'm not sure how the numbers stack up, exactly, but both populations were the target of chemical warfare, and both populations are significantly better off post-US intervention. The Kurdish North of Iraq has been surprisingly prosperous and stable the past four or so years. It's not something that you tend to hear about in the news, but it's a significant consideration, nonetheless.
Ok - time to get back off topic. What comes first, the chicken or the egg?
The egg. External fertilization of eggs was present long before the modern chicken had come around.
Geez.
How about this one: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
If it's Woodchuck Norris, all of it. If just an ordinary woodchuck, the equivalent of a one pound coconut.
The invasion of Grenada, for one.
Oh man, I love this thread! It provides me so much entertainment for me every day! Conspiracy nuts are my favorite kind of crazy
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