Well, I knew it was inevitable that the crazies would take over. At least we got a good, thoughtful discuiion in first....

Why do one-in-five American voters now believe Osama bin Laden is still alive? LA Times

So 1 in 5 Americans are "Crazies"? ROFL, glad I don't live there.   "thoughtful discuiion" LOL again. Quote me some of this thoughtful discuiion. The above poster is probably the most thoughtful of the lot no matter what you believe.

 

You know what my view on Ivy League education is?  That's funny, I don't recall making any statement to such effects as my personal opinion on Ivy League education or that people are infallible if they receive that education.  Are you putting words into my mouth?  I am shocked and appalled by this since you basically told me not to do that to you.  Damn son, still not playing by your own rules or are you just choosing to only selectively apply them when it suits you best?  I know I said Bush's brother was Ivy League educated, but that in no way, shape, or form indicates that I believe it is superior to any other or makes a person any better then someone else.  Being educated in an Ivy League school is purely a status symbol.  I know this, I assume you know this, and by your own words that other people think they are infallible, my original point still stands that your comment about Bush's brother simply being a security guard is still that it's pure bullshit.  I assume you agree with me on this, so I'm not going to beat it to death.



Whoa, one at a time here...

Ground floor explosions.  Well, since we're only dealing with theories here, I have one.  There are these magical devices, boxes really, that have doors and cables and counter weights attached to them and are pulled up or lowered by motors above them.  Some people call them lifts, others call them elevators...  In extreme heat, cables stretch and snap under heavy weight.  What about the brakes you ask?  Don't they stop these wonder boxes when they fall?  I'm glad you asked that.  Yes, they do, but as brakes heat up, they become less effective.  Add in the temperatures from the fires and the brakes are pretty much useless.  That is why you see all of those pretty little signs placed conveniently next to the car call button that say, "In case of fire, use stairs."  Somewhere down the line of development somebody got smart and realized elevators were pretty much a death sentence in a building fire and thought it was a good thing to warn the rest of us.  Thanks bro, who ever you are.  So my theory basically comes down to this.  The elevators fell, causing what looked like explosions on the ground floor when they hit the ground, and conspiracy nuts refuse to take a realistic approach and consider that possibility and just say bombs blew up to take out the foundation...  The tapes were bought by the FBI (do I need to spell out what that stands for?  No?  Didn't think so) so they could do their job and investigate?  Maybe?  Possibly?  Seems logical right?  It does to me.  People don't need to analyze the data to reach conclusions that are different because they already have.  You called them explosions and you don't have any idea of what really happened.

What about building 7?  Oh, you mean that it collapsed too?  Well, let's see, the original design was for a much smaller building, a power substation was built under ground in 1967 with supports to hold up a certain design of building to be built in the future.  In 1983, a building was built on top of it, well started to get built on top of it, one redesigned to be much bigger then the originally planned one.  Debris falling from Tower 2 started fires in building 7.  Two things you might not know, New York City's policy on water delivery is that the water utility only needs to provide enough pressure to get water up to the tenth floor, thus why all of the older buildings have water towers on the roofs and all buildings have pumps near the ground floor to pump the water up to the top, or at the top to pull it up there.  Also, in the event of any major catastrophe, utilities are usually cut off to the immediate area and only turned back on at the request of emergency personnel to add a layer of protection to the emergency personnel.  Gas pipes burning uncontrolled kind of sucks, water spraying all over the place from damaged pipes means less pressure to the fire hydrants and standpipes nearby as well as slip hazards down the stairwells where people are evacuating and emergency personnel are scaling, exposed electrical wires creating electrocution hazards to firefighters trying to spray water on flames really sucks...  So let's add some things up here.  Building bigger then originally planned, sitting on a electrical substation that wasn't ever intended to support a building of it's redesigned size and weight, fires being started in the building from debris from it's neighbor falling what?  40 something floors before impact?  That's a pretty good impact.  Lack of power to operate the water pumps resulting in poor water pressure above the tenth floor.  Fires burning uncontrolled and unchallenged because let's just face one simple fact here, getting people out of the upper floors of buildings 1 and 2 are slightly more important than trying to control fires on a building that was much more easily evacuated.  The fires burned for more then a full day which resulted in the same situation in this building as buildings 1 and 2, structural integrity was compromised due to the fire and much more easily so because of the larger, heavier building built on top of a power substation, which basically means that there was no internal support and all of the load was on the exterior, which had several large impacts on the South side was it?  So when the inside started to cave, so folded the building.

What about Dirk Kempthorne?  He was the governor of Idaho at the time...  Who cares, right?  Guliani wasn't swept under any rugs, he was a potential presidential candidate in 2007 and still goes around giving speeches.  Where have you been and how do you not know this?  Screwing mistresses do end careers.  The higher profile you maintain, the higher the fall when you screw up.  He was actually begged by the people of New York to run for mayor again after his terms were up (would have won) and he refused.  I can't say much for his character, but at least he did do the right thing in that situation.

See, the big flaw I usually see in these arguments is always, well the impact isn't strong enough to do that, jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to do this...  Yet people always seem to forget that buildings burn, and they burn really really hot.  Yes, absolutely, I'm willing to submit to the ideal that the impact wasn't strong enough to drop the twin towers or instantaneously vaporize plane parts, and jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to weaken steel...  But think about everything else that's on fire.  Paper burns damn hot.  They made a book about how hot, even titled it the temperature.  Plants burn, carpet burns, walls burn, ceilings and floors burn, wood burns...  They burn really hot.  More then enough to weaken steel and definitely hot enough to burn away aluminum...  You know, that thing that jets are made out of.  Light weight, yet strong is the goal of the airline building industry.  They have carefully calculated the operating temperatures of all of the pieces of the engines and built them according to what minimal amount of material will work and withstand the abuse and they use nothing more.  Saves on space, saves on weight, saves on cost.  It didn't get vaporized on impact, it burned the hell up.  Take one of those lighters to an empty soda can.  Hold a flame to it.  You burn holes through it like a hot knife through butter.  Aluminum jet parts with really hot fire.  Same thing.

As for the papers and the bodies, here's a neat little magic trick everyone with a little bit of guts can try.  Soak your hand in gasoline and hold it up all dripping wet.  Light your hand on fire.  You'll get a nice good flame but your hand won't burn, though you'll probably want to keep a tub of water nearby to put the flames out in a hurry.  Would you like to know why your hand didn't burn even though it was soaked in gasoline?  Here's why.  Gasoline doesn't burn.  Crazy right?  Not so much.  Armed with the knowledge that it's only the gas vapors that burn, you can do some really cool shit with it.  You'll probably want to dunk your hand in water pretty quick though, as gasoline turns to vapors pretty damned quick so your protection goes away really fast.  Also only try this in a controlled environment, with professionals.  Don't want to get a couple hundred kids lighting themselves on fire now do we?  Nah.  Anyway, fuels we use for internal combustion engines are all in liquid form for a reason.  Two actually.  First, it's easier to pump it to the engine as a liquid, but secondly, because in it's liquid form it's safe enough to be handled by your average idiot without killing everyone around them.  But back to the bodies and papers because I know you're so curious as to why I explained all of that...  There are two pretty solid general theories as to why papers and bodies didn't burn.  The first, as I already explained, soaked and/or lying in a pool of fuel prevented them from burning, or the oxygen in the trapped spaces was used up by the fires resulting in it's own suffocation, basically putting itself out before it had the chance to do any real damage.  As we don't know the exact nature to the conditions of these locations where these things were found, it may be one, or both, or just that fire just never got there in the first place.



Absolutely I did, which is why I said get your information from as many media sources as possible before making a decision.  And by that I didn't mean just flip through the channels on your TV, I meant, TV, radio, newsprint, internet, I'd even toss in schools, friends, and experts you may happen to be able to tap for information as well just for the sake of completeness.  But as to the claim of one man saying, "ahhh, he was dead a long time ago...."  You can understand that I'll remain skeptical of such a claim until further evidence presents itself.  Point being, people that write off a source because they don't agree with it are morons.  That is why I've always enjoyed a good debate.  I get to see/hear/read opinions that are different from my own and expand my own knowledge in the process.



I'll concede that I didn't read the statement as it was intended, however, your doubts aren't as clearly stated as you might think.  I'm a fairly intelligent individual and it still slipped past me.  But I extend my apologies on this one anyway since I should have seen it.  However, I've not once ever complained, merely counterpointed your arguments.  If you read it as complaining, that's you refusing to accept that my points are as valid as yours.  For someone who is clearly trying to get people to see alternatives, you're not responding very open minded.  I never once called you stupid either.  If you lump yourself into conspiracy nut category, then maybe I did, but as I stated in the very beginning of my post, I wasn't sure if you were a believer or just mocking it and for the most part, responded to conspiracy nuts in general, not to you specifically.



No, actually, it's extremely true and claiming anything else is just ridiculous as I'll explain in the next part.



And as per my statement, if we stopped voting in people who are groomed for or just made careers out of being politicians and instead voted in people who are older and wiser and know what it is to be an average person in the US, someone who's had to work for a living and is only running for office because they love their country rather then seeing a fat paycheck and political kickbacks, we'd be in a much better place.  Your little point there is made moot by my original point which I just reiterated, which is get these bastards out of office and put in decent, sensible people.  We wouldn't have to worry about this play ball or your out BS.  But these people either don't exist, or they don't run for office, if they did, I'd vote for them.  Besides, we vote them in anyway.  They can't not get reelected just because their peers in office don't like them.  It's us who makes that call.  Don't shoot off a lie just because it's convenient to your side.



Please, you're the one labeling yourself.  I was generalizing, if you want to lump yourself in with them, go for it.  My points are always backed up with more then just name calling, which I didn't really do.  If that's all I was doing, you wouldn't have had any reason to respond to me now would you?  See, got you on that one didn't I?  Maybe you should follow some of your own advice again and read it with a more critical mindset.



Never said there wasn't, in fact I did say it was okay to question your government.



I did attack your ideal, I did it again.  People...  Well, I'm not always PC, I really just don't care.  PC doesn't get anyone to respond unless they really want to take the time out of their day.  Got you to respond to me and no one else didn't it?



The discussion only just got started.  And I am being quite thoughtful as well, though not necessarily completely PC.  ;]  But I really am too tired to go on any further this time.

Hahahahaha.  I don't know if it's the lack of sleep talking, but that's damned funny.

Exactly.  Time to move on before they question the existence of the universe.

No, don't you see? The pharmaceutical companies want you to think the universe doesn't exist so that they can plant recording devices in our space heaters! It's all one giant double-cross!!

I read way too much of this...

if bin laden was killed - pro or con to produce a body?  If he was captured - pro or con to have a trial?  If nothing happened to him - other than to embarrass the amazing Donald (threat to the President even though everyone with common sense knew he had no intention of running) Trump, why run with the story? 

Side note - arguments about torture being super cool... also not substantial.  The odds that you could get someone to deny knowing someone without torture?  100%.  And that was the big tip off eh?  Guy get tortured and says he doesn't know X person.  The fact does remain that torture was used (ffs - have anyone that is waterboarded argue as to whether or not its torture).  And that intelligence gleaned from that was useful in finding and killing bin laden.  We can only speculate, tbh, if another method would have provided the same results.  Do the ends justify the means - tbh - I'd say yes.  If it was necessary to torture someone to get specific information (eg on sept 11, X flight will be hijacked to crash into the WTC), then I'd say yes.  Do it.  You can even call that person a hero.  But I also, sadly, but honestly, think the person that chose to torture is guilty of a crime as well.  Even if good came of it.  And that person - hero or villain - should be held accountable even if someone ordered them to do it. 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. But I don't think it's possible to torture specific information out of somebody without a means to evaluate it right there. They'll just say what they think you want to hear.

I wanted Bin Laden to be tried. The fact that they didn't hold a trial before killing him really annoys me. (Of course, Bin Laden need not actually be presant at said trial... International criminal courts can and do convict people in absentia)

I hired Sheik Osama Bin Laden back then when he worked for me under the direction of the CIA.

I continue to hire others like Sheik Osama Bin Laden.

I am a US tax payer.

-.-

We all support the establishment that recruits, trains and dispatches assassins in the guise of National Security.

We all support the establishment that is charged with keeping the people misinformed in all matters, foreign and domestic, that are relevant to us.

We are all guilty because we live subject to the monetary system.

-.-

Not really. I don't hold regular people accountable for the bad things countries do, because that information is usually not well known (if not actively hushed up). To be sure, it would be morally superior to renounce your citizenship and go live someplace that doesn't fund people like Bin Laden, but most people just don't have the economic ability to do that.

If you play the world trade center footage frame by frame there is one frame where an SR-71 can be seen high above pursuing a disk shaped glowing object moving at high speed.

That's a heckuva lot of coincidences.