Okay. I wanted to try TEC. So if you are a fan of the TEC maybe you all can help. I have a couple of questions.
1.) What ships and combo of ships do you focus on? What does you TEC fleet looks like?
2.) Economy. What do you research. In what order? What do you do to get that economy roaring.
3.) What do you do with diplomacy as TEC? If anything?
4.) I keep hearing that TEC is a fast starter? How so?
Any help will be greatly appriciated. I stink at TEC.
I don't know about before 1.2 but as of 1.2 I'm not sure that still holds true. I find it that if you can get skirmishers going with lvl 2 regeneration and you are not to far behind they will kill everything advent can throw at them early game. I find out that with tier 2 weapons upgrade and 2 skirantras with fighters with heal micro they are quite good against Ilums as well. That is as long as you have at least 3-2 ratio between them. Again I'm talking about very early game (30 -40 frig or less).
I've been able to pull advent close quarters vs TEC where the homeworld's were connected. Spam scouts, take out constructors. Play head games with them and try to take their early expansion asteroid. Spam like crazy and cry for early feed. target the frigate factory 100% no matter what the losses, and then hold his fleet at bay through delay tactics to rebuild forces to pick off the fleet one by one until you can face it directly. requires a bit of luck, the first person who scouts the other has an advantage, every second the proximity is unknown to the other player increases the other player's advantage greatly.
I got lucky and scouted him a full 30 seconds ahead of him scouting me. I also got lucky in that he had already built an akkan capital ship which would get cut to ribbons against my halcyon. i had already spammed a small fleet of disciples and scouts before he started building his forces. It was close at the beginning, but since i needed feed early my feeder gave me some after i had just taken his asteroid. after I got early feed it was a shut case as i kept the fact that i was getting fed by occupying harassing his HW's gravity well. Then I warped in my 10 illuminators to seal the deal.
Are you sure about that? The last time I opened with a Kol battleship, it was chaotic. It started out OK, with my little fleet (1 Kol, 10 Cobalts) blasting holes into the Vasari force nearby. But after about 10 to 15 minutes all hell broke lose. I know I set up the worst possible escort for the Kol, but it did the job until this point. The Kol needs more protection than it seems.
And thus ends my (feeble. . .) tirade.
I have opened with the Kol several times and won that game because when I make the kol, I make 2-3 colony ships to go in after my Kol and its small fleet go in and clear every thing out, I send the colonies in to colonize and make mining factories on asteroids while my Kol and company are workin on the next nuetral planet.
Very effective, and I never lost those colony ships or my Kol. It's just faster than Akkan in the beginning because you have to give the Akkan time to colonize when it could be off conquering.
Also, The Kol just soaks up punishment, so I could prob. send it off by itself to terminate nuetral colonies( I prob. wouldn't do that though, just an idea I wnt to try now.)
Sova clears planets way faster than Kol and can take on militia that are too difficult for a Kol to take down, Akkan will allow you to perform aggressive colonization jumps and defeat the militia with turrets. This will result in far faster colonization than is possible with the Kol.
I experimented heavily with Kol openers in a mod that massively buffed it, and it still sucked by comparison to what I could do with a Sova or Akkan.
I guess it's the way I play and stratagize. I also do that so I can move from planet to planet with my fleet without having to stick around on a quonquered planet waiting for it to be colonized. This works very great with small maps too and when you want to get a slightly better start than others, economy wise... just have to play it right.
This is how I describe the TEC capital ships. The Sova and the Akkan are both solid ships right out of the gate. The Kol, on the other hand, is simply a late game ship, best used in pairs, with a large escort fleet. The Marza and the Dunov are niche ships, also ideally used in pairs, that fill their role well.
I am rather fond of a Modular Architecture opening for discounted mines at my expansions, followed by fast Javelis and the other TEC early game staples. A Sova or an Akkan is my first capital depending on the situation.
I would guess that most of you here play SP games. If so kol could work if you can get it to lvl6. As for multiplayer building kol as 1st cap usually means you just signed a death sentence for yourself.
Wow... Am I the only one who thinks that a Kol opening is a good idea?
There is another one. He goes as Sire or king of the kings. But he also thinks that rushing HC is good idea.
The Kol is a terrible opening, the Sova and the Akkan are far superior choices.
That one can work, particularly if the map is big enough that you can comfortably jump to 5 labs after doing some colonization and economizing. Of course, don't expect to win with it if your opponent is paying attention, and be sure to diversify. If you so much as smell guardians or subverters, for the love of all things sensible get other combat unit types.
Pretty much anyone who plays multiplayer has utterly dismissed the Kol as a valid opener. It's a joke, you will die if you pick a Kol and get rushed because it's so bad in combat. If you came online, you'd very quickly abandon the Kol as a valid choice. It can work against the AI, but just about anything will work against the AI, and if you know what you're doing you can get way better results out of other choices.
The Sova can more than double the average damage output of a Kol, which means it will kill militia twice as fast on average (and for less antimatter) and has a much more dangerous presence in combat. The bottom line is that these guys aren't even in the same league.
Kol + LRM snipe is the best tactic you have as kol(which is easily countered), But I still stand by the fact that the kol is still better than the advent battleship. The kol offers a single tactic, and it can help against massed non vasari bombers in the endgame. The kol has a useful late game support option(flak, super tanking ability), making it better than the advent battleship which has a difficult to use and has a situation specific tier 6 ability. The advent battleship might do a bit more DPS for clearing grav wells, but most multiplayers know that you don't use battleships to clear grav wells.
For the record I am carpetbomb online
The Radiance is better than the Kol, because of Detonate Antimatter, which is one of the best abilities for dealing with abilities, and it isn't even an ultimate.
Indeed; the Radiance is about disrupting and cancelling enemy abilities. Very much a one-trick pony, but at least it's a slick trick. Personally, I don't find its ultimate worth using unless I have malice to combo it off with, which I usually do not. The Kol, I use exclusively for flak burst and raise it to suppress enemy strike craft. It fulfills this role quite well if you can put enough levels on it, but that's an unrealistic investment in most scenarios.
Kol vs. Radiance:
Let's analyze a level 5 of each ship (if nothing else, so that each has level 3 of at least one ability)...
Radiance:
Hull = 2200 + 90 x 4 = 2560
Shield = 1750 + 180 x 4 = 2470
Armor = 4.5 + .4 x 4 = 6.1
Shield mitigation = 65 +1.111 x 4 = 69.444%
Kol:
Hull = 3000 + 120 x 4 = 3480
Shield = 1250 + 135 x 4 = 1790
Armor = 5 + .45 x 4 = 6.8
Shield mitigation = 65 + 1.111 x 4 = 69.444%
Looking at just these stats alone (no abilities, cruiser protection, or tech upgrades), Kol clearly is better at surviving...it has better armor, more hull, and more HP overall...however, if we are testing resilience, we need to grant each capital ship its resilience ability...
Level 3 energy absorption grants +6 armor...that brings the armor up to 12.1, which is equivalent to a 1 / (1 + .05 x 12.1) = 62.3% damage multiplier....however, this only applies to hull, which represents about 51% of the total HP, so we could equate this to about an 80.8% damage multiplier overall...
First off, let's consider the armor of the kol which is equivalent to a 1 / (1 + .05 x 6.8) = 74.6% damage multiplier...applied to only the hull (which is about 66% of the HP), that is equivalent to about an 83.2% damage multiplier overall due to armor...I'd like to point out that despite having less armor than the Radiance, the Kol still benefits almost just as much from armor because it has far more hull....
Level 3 adaptive forcefield grants 35% damage reduction...though this is dependent on antimatter use, let's assume the kol is using this ability continuously (so damage reduction applies all the time)...this is equivalent to a 1 / (1 + .35) = 74.1% damage multiplier...compounding this with the armor bonus, that gives the Kol a .741 x .832 = 61.6% damage multiplier overall...
By considering just level 3 of each ship's resilience ability, the Kol again clearly comes out as the winner with an 80.8% (Radiance) vs. 61.6% (Kol) damage multiplier...even if the Kol can't use its ability at all, the Radiance then only marginally beats the Kol (80.8% vs. 83.2%) with its damage multiplier...
However, the Kol has more HP overall (5270 vs 5030) so actually when one compounds the total HP and the average damage multiplier, they'll find the Kol to actually be superior...to show this, one would analyze the "time to live", which in general is HP / (DPS x damage multiplier)...for any given DPS, you'll find the "time to live" will be higher for the Kol given the noted HP and damage multiplier of each capital ship...
To sum this up, the Kol is superior to the Radiance (with energy absorption) in terms of resilience even if one doesn't consider adaptive forcefield...while the Radiance has more armor (with energy absorption), the Kol has significantly more hull and has more HP overall...if one considers adaptive forcefield, then the Kol is clearly far superior to the Radiance in terms of survivability...
Now, let us, however, consider tech upgrades...
Advent:
Shields +30%
Hull +30%
Armor +4.0
Shield mitigation +4% (shield bonus)
TEC:
Shields +20%
Armor +6.0
These technologies result in the following changes:
Hull = 3328
Shield = 3211
Armor = 16.1 (includes energy absorption level 3)
Shield mitigation = 73.444%
Hull = 4524
Shield = 2148
Armor = 12.8
Shield mitigation = 69.444%
Damage reduction = 35%
Let us determine the damage multiplier first for each ship (for this, I will assume for simplicity that max shield mitigation will always apply)...our general equation will be:
Damage multiplier = [(% of HP that is hull) x (1 / (1 + .05 x armor)) + (% of HP that is shields)] x (1 - shield mitigation %) x (1 / (1 + damage reduction %))
Radiance = 20.5%
Kol = 22.5% / 1.35 (damage reduction) = 16.6 %
Again, even with technology upgrades, the Kol seriously outperforms the Radiance...
Let us consider the affect of early game support cruisers (hoshiko and iconus guardian)...
The Iconus Guardian absorbs 33% of all incoming damage, putting the Radiance at a 13.5% damage multiplier...the Hoshiko adds 15 hull/s, which we need to equate to DPS...using the inverse of the Kol's damage multiplier, we would find that a Hhoshiko essentially "cancels out" 90.4 DPS....to give some perspective, this is equivalent to about 11 LRMs (considering the damage table of Antimedium vs. capital armor)...
If one considers these support cruisers, at low levels of damage the hull/s is more useful while at high levels of damage the damage reduction from the Iconus Guardian is more useful...let us set up our equation by comparing the "time to live" for each ship...remember, time to live is Total HP / (DPS x damage multiplier)....let us use D to represent DPS...
Radiance ttl = Kol ttl
6539 / (D x 13.5%) = 6672 / ((D-90.4) x 16.6%)
If you do the algebra, you find that D = 531.1 DPS...this means that if the capital ship is taking more than this number, the Radiance + Iconus Guardian is better...if the ship is taking less than this number, the Kol + hoshiko is better...
Since 531.1 DPS is like 64 LRMs, I'd say in general the Kol is in better shape...in a situation where you'd face more firepower than that, you'd have to consider many other thinks like TK push, embolden, and probably a higher level capital ship (which means finest hour and +15 hull/s for the Kol)...
One final consideration is culture bonus...however, if we consider culture bonus, then I think we should assume a defensive situation, in which case I would consider repair platforms to be fair game....
Advent gets an additional +6% shield mitigation, but TEC has a much better repair platform (40 hull/s vs. 30 hull/s)...I'm not going to run the numbers, but the +6% shield mitigation probably would be better than the extra 10 hull/s granted by a repair platform...of course, a TEC advocate could argue that with cielo's embolden and a SB's docking booms, the Kol would be better...Advent could counter argue with a domina's +25 hull/s and a Progenitor's shield regeneration, and TEC could come back with Finest Hour's +15 hull/s 1/3 of the time and a Dunov's shield restore...and we could go on and on and on, not really getting anywhere...
In general though, I think it is quite clear that stand alone, Kol is unquestionably more resilient...even without the use of adaptive forcefield, the Kol is very competitive with a Radiance using energy absorption...I think late game with a full battleball, a Radiance would be harder to kill but any Advent ship should be harder to kill than its TEC counterpart if protected by a battleball...
The last important consideration is the phase missile block granted by the Kol...in a TEC vs. Advent matchup, the Radiance is only going to be more resilient if protected by an entire late game Advent fleet...however, vs. Vasari the Kol would unquestionably outperform the Radiance due to Advent's inherent weakness against phase missiles...
This is not to say the Kol is better overall than the Radiance or is more useful...however, I think it is quite clear the Kol is the most resilient of the two (and probably the most resilient single object in the game other than a starbase)...
I don't see your point here, Seleuceia. A Kol fulfills a very different role from a Radiance, so a direct durability comparison is a moot point. I don't think anyone here would contest that the Kol is a very durable capital ship, while most people regard the Radiance as average. The kind of Kol you describe is something only a fool would single out; no one is going to point all their guns at this ship until everything around it is dead, and its time to live is more or less irrelevant.
The Radiance is not a particularly durable capital ship, and simply isn't used the same way as a Kol. Its role is primarily a disruptor and disabler, and most of its survivability will be coming from repulsion and telekinetic push in order to swat away attackers and letting the injured Radiance withdraw safely. Its own durability isn't high enough to keep it alive in a serious firefight if the enemy choses to single it out. While the Kol (level 5+...) is a reliable strike craft repellant with enough durability to dissuade anyone from trying to pick it off, its actual contribution to a frigate battle is largely negligable since smart enemies won't attack it until they have the battle locked down.
Overall I'd say the Radiance is superior to the Kol. Not only that, the Radiance is a counter-pick to the Kol, shutting down all its abilities with a single use of detonate antimatter. The Kol doesn't have enough antimatter regeneration to come back online in the same fight unless you have culture bonus, and will sit around granting fairly low amounts of damage. The Radiance, on the other hand, will start disabling other units, and while its fragility may force it to withdraw, it will have a far greater impact on the outcome of the battle.
To top it off, the Radiance is effective and efficient in its given role at level 1, while the Kol simply doesn't deal enough damage with enough frequency to really control strike craft until it's at least level 3, but more likely level 5. The higher amount of investment to get a useful Kol is a big blow against this ship. That's not to say the Kol cannot be used well or isn't powerful in the right circumstances, but the Radiance is a more useful capital ship overall.
That one can work, particularly if the map is big enough that you can comfortably jump to 5 labs after doing some colonization and economizing.
Yes if you have economy to support it. but as he plays he never has. Also most moderate to skilled scout and they know exactly what he will do so.... Simple disciple or cobalt spam rush defeats that strategy easily
HC rushing is okay for Advent since they have a crappy LRF...but, just like the tier 0 spam, it simply is picking the least worst of your available options...I have done HC rushing as TEC before, but only as an eco player who needed to go aggressive to protect a teammate...if you are a frontliner, HC rushing will kill you for sure...
I'm also not trying to argue the Kol is better than the radiance...but, both ships are clearly riding on only one ability (flak burst or detonate antimatter), and quite honestly detonate antimatter isn't all that useful early on either...
Having an ability interrupt is fantastic mid or late game...great for dealing with SB abilities, missile barrage, or a really annoying capital ship, but early on I think there are better counters to most of the capital ship threats (mainly, having a carrier cap or more frigates)....
The thing is, if I'm building a Radiance or a Kol, I'm only building that ship for one ability (which is a huge opportunity cost in both cases) and I'd be really ticked if I lost that risky investment...it is because of this that I think resiliency should be considered, especially for TEC which sucks at protecting caps anyway...i mean, if I have to choose between a shitty capital ship that will survive and an awesome capital ship that will die in 30s, I might as well take the shitty survivor...
As a whole, the Radiance has greater utility, but you are less likely to lose the Kol...so while the Radiance may be a higher returning investment, the kol is a safer investment...doesn't necessarily make the Kol better or even comparable, but I do think there is something to be said for resiliency...there are enough eco players out there that go off with 3 or 4 capital ships early on, and if they build even one Kol that manages to get to level 5, that thing is going to be hard to kill...
In a 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3, Radiance is clear winner due to utility....but when you get to the bigger matches, role specializing (eco vs. frontliner) changes the risk value of certain endeavors significantly...the kol sucks but I think it sucks much less than people have made it out to be given the nature of large games (and I would stress the Kol is only worth it in large games)...in the grand scheme of things, the Radiance isn't that much better and not an option for TEC anyway...if I'm TEC, started with a Sova, and picking my 5th or 6th capital ship well...I'm not going to pick a 3rd Sova...
The thread started on asking about TEC strategy...I think leading with a kol is generally a bad idea, and building them in general is also bad...but I wouldn't write it off completely, because an eco player that builds a pair of kols and then throws them in to support an ally's fleet has provided SC cover no other TEC combo could if we're talking large late game fleets...
Using a level 1 capital ship to completely negate a level 5 capital ship is a pretty good deal. Two shots from level 1 detonate will clear 240 antimatter, which in practice should leave just about any enemy capital ship on empty. That's what makes the Radiance good; it works right out the gate and doesn't need to level up several times to be useful in battle.
Agreed; TEC's late game options for capital ships are much more limited. An Akkan is too fragile, a Sova doesn't bring anything useful to the table for a mid-late game unit, and the Marza remains a niche unit. The Dunov and Kol, regardless of their shortcomings, start to look a lot better by comparison.
Problem with iluminators is that you need to have suficient numbers to make them effective.
I always refer to the kol as the flak capital ship. Hard as a nut shell and needs micro-ing its abilities to time many incoming strike craft and take em down. Works best when u have a pair. Otherwise its useless
I'd like to clarify that I'm referring to early game, not low level...Radiance unquestionably is more useful at lower levels...but in the early game, detonate antimatter as a whole is not really an ability of great use or power...I'd say it's better than flak burst early on, but the only early game situation I can think of where detonate antimatter would be great is if your opponent rushes that 3rd capital ship...otherwise, a carrier cap is going to be a better counter...
But they can field a good numbers of bombers along with Malice or Telekinetic Push that kills HC real quick.
The Radiance is useless early game as the Advent since you want to avoid taking action to the enemy until you get a battelball built in order to deal the maximum damage as possible. They are better later during the middle game as fleet bodyguards useful for using Aminosity to deflect damage from your more valuable ships and stay behind when retreating so the rest of the fleet can escape.
Sadly yes
The Kol needs some lovin [e digicons]:'([/e]
Please devs?
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