Okay. I wanted to try TEC. So if you are a fan of the TEC maybe you all can help. I have a couple of questions.
1.) What ships and combo of ships do you focus on? What does you TEC fleet looks like?
2.) Economy. What do you research. In what order? What do you do to get that economy roaring.
3.) What do you do with diplomacy as TEC? If anything?
4.) I keep hearing that TEC is a fast starter? How so?
Any help will be greatly appriciated. I stink at TEC.
I just don't know whether to take these people seriously on consign them to the "troll" bin. Most capital ships will rip a Kol to shreds, and the three carriers will beat anything else. The only non-carrier capital ship in the game that even stands a chance in a straight fight with a carrier cap is the Kortul.
Kol is a joke; it's a battleship-class with poor damage output, no special qualities, and merely above-average toughness. I don't know why it gets the loyal following it does; I've seen mods that have buffed it to absurd levels and it still gets outperformed by a standard Sova opener.
Because its the Human Battleship; so most players probably consider it the default capital ship.
The Kol is the only TEC capital ship I hate, because it is so pathetic in comparison to every other capital ship, especially its contemporaries, the battleships.
I used to like the Kol until I learned how useless it is. I still like the look of it but hardly ever build it even in SP anymore.
Heh, not biased at all. Send the kol in to close range with the enemy capital ship. once in range send in your lrms. Time your shots so the kol will keep the cap locked down. the enemy has only one choice to prevent you sniping their capital ship, to try to counter snipe the kol. This WILL give you more time to dps any capital ship.
A smart player will retreat to avoid the kol initially as it tries to close range, but a player who thinks the kol is a weak starter will let it close range. The lrm surprise is easy to execute, and therefore effective.
Do both ships need to be buffed? yes.
Looking at just the numbers limits the amount of variables that you are looking at, which will give you a distorted view. I know the kols dps isn't as good as the radiance. The kol isn't supposed to be a dps machine, but a tank.
kol cant lock shit down.
dont forget wierd sins stacking means that -50% speed = -33% speed. -100% speed = -50% speed.
in a similar way, adaptive force shield lies about its damage reduction. 25%? try 20. 35%? try 26.
If you try that trick vs a carrier cap, assuming equal dps from lrms from both sides... the kol will die first. in any case, the second the enemy commander notices the focus fire on his cap, hes going to run it. a -33% speed reduction part of the time aint going to slow it down nearly as much as say... an ion bolt, grav bomb, phase out, blackout, so forth.
Using your own frigs as road blocks is more effective than a kol at stopping enemy caps from running.
Not if your enemy knows the click-spam trick. Blowing through enemy frigates is easy.
heh I never said the kol is locking a ship down. I have been saying that it is able to give its lrm support fleet enough extra time to kill any cap in the game before it will get killed. thats all.
so, i am making a balance mod. aptly named "sins of the developers". if you could give suggestions for capital ship buffs/nerfs, what woud they be?
Kol
GRG needs a debuff other than speed reduction...something like a penalty to shield mitigation, armor, damage reduction, etc...you have to be careful with your duration, cooldown, and stacking limit though so as not to make the debuff overpowered...
Flak burst is okay though if you want you can toy around with damage over time...that's what I'm trying to get balanced with this ability right now...
Adaptive Forcefield probably would benefit from being passive...this change alone would make the other two kol abilities more useful simply because only two abilities would be competing for antimatter...
Sova
In general, the problem with the Sova is that it doesn't scale well into the late game like the Halcyon and Skirantra do...nevertheless, it is still a fine ship and arguably the best cap in the early game...
Akkan
For balance purposes, this ship is fine...
Dunov
Shield Restore needs a secondary buff that it applies to the target...a bonus to shield mitigation would be nice...you may also consider having shield regen over time in addition to instant shield regen to make it more useful for frigates (though this is a little frivolous)...you can also consider allowing the dunov to restore its own shields
EMP I suppose could have better range/shorter cooldown/lower antimatter cost if you think its necessary, but its probably fine as is...
Magnetize could benefit from affecting more targets (note that the finish condition "targets destroyed" and the max number of affected targets are two very different things) and maybe from a greater range...a lot of people also would like to see this ability be cast on friendly targets though that wouldn't be good for AI usage...
Marza
Radiation bomb and raze planet are fine...
Incendiary shells needs a debuff...something like a small armor penalty or even hull damage...be careful with the stacking limit on this one if you add a debuff...
Radiance
Detonate antimatter is fine...energy absorption is fine though armor is not really an Advent thing, could go for damage reduction...
Animosity needs a secondary debuff...something like DPS or a penalty to accuracy/cooldown/speed...
Cleansing Brilliance needs to do more DPS and preferably in a shorter time period...you can shrink the column width if you think its becomes OP...
Halcyon
Fine as is...
Progenitor
Rapture
You could consider tweaking the cooldown/AM costs/durations of Vertigo and Vengeance but they are more or less okay...
Revelation
Reverie is fine...
Guidance is pretty bad...I'd consider adding another buff, like AM cost reduction or bombing weapon cooldown reduction...
Clairvoyance needs a secondary effect...maybe making the planet more vulnerable to damage, spawn culture, reveal mines, etc...just something...
Kortul
Fine...
Skirantra
Fine...SB is a little on the strong side but if you are making a balance mod one thing you should consider is tweaking bombers (which inherently puts this ability back in place)
Jarrasul
Marauder
Phase Out Hull could use some tweaking...maybe hull damage/heal (may want to reduce the amount of damage/heal)...be careful about making this ability OP though, you may have to increase the AM cost (especially for higher levels)
Subversion needs help...longer duration, easier to use (fire and forget instead of having to target planet), maybe damage over time to planet...be creative...
Warp gravity (or whatever it's called) could use a better range...
Vulkoras
PM swarm could probably benefit from hitting more targets...
Other two abilities are fine...
In general, I'd recommend changing the AI use time for the ultimate abilities from OnlyWhenEnemyFleetWillPrevail to OnlyInCombat...Resurrection could be changed to "OnlyWithNoOrders" (may or may not have an "s" on the end)...
Best of luck to you and your mod!
I like the idea of having instant shields and shields restore over time for 5-10 sec
I haven't seen any numbers (i.e. max damage at each level) on this after the patch came out but I'm assuming at level 3 with all 3 stacks it would do more then a vasari repair platform can repair. One thing you need to consider is that some attacks bypass shield mitigation and therefor do more damage then the equivalent damage from weapons.
I see that you say overall vasari caps are mostly ok while the other races need buffs to their caps? I would currently argue that vasari is the weakest race early and mid game and late game where they shine their strength doesn't come from cap ships but from phase missiles, star bases, phase gate jumping and support ships.
I'm not sure if you're stuck a patch behind or just disagree with me on these points.
Well, for one, I didn't really suggest any specific changes to any of the carrier or colonizing caps regardless of faction...those 6 ships are in pretty good shape right now...
Of the remaining 9, the only one I didn't suggest any additional changes for was the Kortul...that ship is considered to be the best of the battleships and by far the most competitive non-carrier or non-colonizing cap...
So, 3 TEC and 3 Advent caps need some help while 2 Vasari caps need some help...that's not really all that unbalanced....
The truth of the mattter is, Vasari caps are pretty damn good except for the marauder...they have a good carrier, and with the new patch, a very good colonizing cap....they clearly have the best battleship, and the vulkoras is better than a marza or revelation at sieging planets...the only weak cap the Vasari have is the marauder...
Advent caps are pretty decent...halcyon and progenitor are very good, and the rapture is pretty solid with all 3 of its abilities...even the radiance isn't too bad with detonate antimatter+energy absorption...the real weak spot here is the revelation which really only has one good ability (reverie)...
TEC are a bit on the weak side cap wise...the Sova and Akkan are excellent especially early game...the Marza is okay though not as good as the Vulkoras while the Dunov is just sort of mediocre...the Kol is just AWFUL...so, TEC are slightly at a disadvantage late game in terms of caps...
I think most players will disagree with you when you say Vasari have the weakest early game...Vasari have the skirantra and space egg (which is the best colonizing cap for early combat since it has nano-disassemblers)...Vasari also can grab neutral extractors faster and deploy SBs with greater ease...the only real set back the Vasari have early game is the cost of their frigates...both kanraks and skirmishers are expensive, forcing their rushes to rely more on caps than on frigates (which is why you'll see double or triple skirantra rushes with Vasari)...
Advent by far have the worst early game, mostly because they have the weakest LRF...scout+disciple fleets can perform well but it gives less cap sniping power than LRMs or kanraks, and it is also is pathetic against early SBs...
Late game, Vasari SBs are actually the weakest as they don't have any fleet AoE abilities like meteor storm or docking booms...the one thing really going for Vasari SBs is actually the hangar bays with phasic trap as those can really do wonders in protecting your SB from SC...Vasari do have a lot of power coming from their fleet and from PMs, but they also have the 2nd best economy and they have a good alignment of capital ships....TEC late game power comes from economy, novaliths, and dem bots...Advent late game power comes from guardians, damn good SBs, and capital ship synergies (not the capital ships themselves)...so, I'd argue that currently Vasari have the best-line up for capital ships (though only marginally so for late game), especially when you add on Overseers which can make them near impossible to kill for a whole minute...
The problem is that incendiary shells requires you to remain in combat constantly to get its benefit. Capital ships need to stay mobile and retreat on a hair-trigger. Often times if you have to begin your retreat before you even start taking damage. This makes an ability like incendiary shells extremely limited and it's simply not worth putting a capital ship on the front lines just for a small damage boost. You're much better off with radiation bomb (which is actually pretty mediocre now that the benchmark is set by the highly competitive carrier caps) which allows you to damage spike quickly and then get the heck out of there.
Overall, the Marza really only sells for "Raze Planet" and "Missile Barrage" these days. If you want damage output, get a Sova, it's worlds better than a Marza.
Sorry, but if you're losing to Advent in the early-game as Vasari, you have some serious issues. Vasari can get rolled by a good TEC, but no more than Advent does. This is more a case of TEC dominance than Vasari inferiority.
In any case, I doubt anyone would complain about the Skirantra currently. The Kortul is an excellent capital ship held back only by the fact that it's a battleship in a carrier's world. I've long argued that all that is needed is a move speed increase so it can successfully close the distance with a kiting carrier cap and it would become a very potent opener, perhaps even eclipsing the Skirantra. The Vulkoras is easily the game's best bombardment weapon, and easily carries itself with this role alone. Still needs a buff to the otherwise pathetic phase missile swarm, though. The Jarrasul suffers from the slow move speed of other colony caps; you fix that and its fragility problems go away and it's fine. Antorak is the only one on the list I'd go so far as to call "weak", and like many other support-type caps it needs some love.
So overall, I'd say Vasari caps are in pretty good shape. Certainly better than TEC whose capital ships simply don't scale well into the late game. They're not a faction-carrying strength, but they're still pretty darn solid.
I never said I had any problems in a certain match up, all I said was that if i were to pick the weakest race early and mid game i would pick vasari.
While yes. in stats, vasari ships have the weakest stats... as far as dmg/fleet supply and dmg/cost in general...
their scouts allow easy neutal control, and the skirantra is quite enough to carry the faction till you get some basic lv 1 phase missle upgrades... which allows your assailants and bbrs to nom the enemy cap ships.
ya, if you try to lrm spam vs a tec, you will be quite behind in dps...
but vasari are designed to play dirty, not fair.
Hehehe....well said...
Advent loses to TEC early-game
Advent loses to Vasari early-game
I don't see how you're coming to the conclusion that Advent is better in the early-game than Vasari when they clearly get their ass handed to them by both factions. No question TEC is the strongest, but Vasari definitely comes down the middle. Mid-game I actually think the races are relatively balanced, but late-game Vasari is the strongest.
Darvin if you want we can test it, I will play advent you can play any race we can play on any map of your choice; I can start any time from 30 min to 5 hours from time of posting (or another day).
Darvin do you play online multi player?
If so you should know that Vasari against Advent (equal skill players) usually really struggles if he is not playing on a map with neutrals. Just tier 1 spam (disciples + scouts) with 1 carrier cap for bomber cover will lock vasari player to his HW or just overwhelm him if he doesn't SB it.
Only option for vasari player is if he goes directly for skirmishers with regeneration upgrade.
This option is very expensive and yes it works but it's hard to pull it off if players are less than 3-4 phase jumps away.
I have to agree with Greg's testimony here...granted, I'm not a great player, but early Vasari vs. Advent is much closer now that Skirantras aren't OP...the problem is the Advent scout ship, it just dominates over kanraks with early game PMs...
The best counter I could amass to fight against Advent's tier 0 spam is a combination of kanraks and skirmishers...the biggest mistake I made was putting bombers instead of fighters on my 2-3 skirantras...if I had gone for fighters, I probably would have been okay at least long enough to get to HCs...reintegration was a huge help but not enough for me...if my teammate didn't get crushed so quickly I might have been okay once it got into the late game, but if the odds are against you it can be a very tough fight dealing with so many scouts and disciples...
I still believe Advent have the worst early game...against TEC they don't stand a chance while Vasari vs. TEC is still even enough to make map/player skill more dominant...also, Advent are very limited in their early game options...you pretty much have to go with tier 0 spam and hope for the best, and if the enemy rolls out HCs, puts up an SB, or realizes what you are up to then you can be in for a really tough fight...Vasari may have a rough start but they have the SB rush option, are more prepared to counter SBs, and have a good battleship and siege cap ship to increase their early game flexibility...that PMs absolutely crush Advent caps, guardians, and SBs late game puts the Advent at a crucial disadvantage against Vasari...all a Vasari player has to do is last till the mid/late game and then it's pretty much over for Advent...
Even if an Advent player does have a dominant economic position, phase gates mean you don't have to SB as many planets...also you can snipe advent cap ships, something they won't be able to do as easily since Vasari have overseers...
If you are playing against vasa that is kind of slow you don't even need to bother with scouts just spam disciples upgrade their weapons to tier 2 and they will overwhelm assailants that vasari player build especially if he opted for 2 skirantras and you went only 1 cap.
Nice thing for advent is that scouts disciples and eventually flak if he managed to get 20+ assailants all use same weapon upgrades. Regarding early game they are almost as beneficial as phase missiles (- shield bypass) since all ships use them.
Off and on over the past year. I'll admit that I haven't been playing nearly as much recently as I used to.
I've been playing mostly 1v1's over the past 6 months,and 5-7 jumps is really the norm for distance there.
Definitely; the seeker remains a ridiculously tough unit for its cost. Maybe I am giving Advent less credit than they deserve, but the T0 approach doesn't have nearly the staying power that it used to. Overall, I feel the Advent vs Vasari matchup is similar in difficulty to the Vasari vs TEC matchup; not impossible, but it's an uphill battle. And unlike Vasari vs TEC, you don't have a happy-ending waiting for you if you can just survive to the late-game.
Thank you all very much for the feedback.
ya. thats something intresting about the advent vasari match up. Phase missles only get to thier devilish effectiveness once sheilds reach max mitigation. with disciples and scouts... you dont spend much time at those mitigations, hence lowering the effectiveness of the phase missle upgrades. mind you... a smart vasari player will be hammering yur halycon/progen and not the frigs.
In any case. in a frig vs frig match up...
before the scout nerf, i had some test results which concuded that a fleet of advent 50% scouts and 50% lfs would not lose to an equal supply of any tier 0-2 vasari unit combination. I havent bothered to retest since the nerf, but tier 0 advent ships with a haylcon giving fighter coverage, and +7.5/15% damage... which stacks multiplicitvly with the advent weapon researchs... and the units already have some of the highest dps/supply in the game (save lrms)... advent can be suprisingly direct.
Yes thats true Pb but the point is that he is focus firing your halycon while you are killing his frigates and leveling your cap. If you are good enough you will know when to jump back and repair your cap and at the same time build more disciples which in turn will widen the firepower gap since u are not loosing ships and he is.
Loose the battle but win the war.
To be honest against skilled player focus fire at his cap is a bad choice if his fleet is also present. First you need to kill his fleet to levels when you wont be loosing to much ships while focus firing on those skirantras.
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