In my opinion, the biggest issue in War of Magic is game pace. Some things we can improve. We can speed up the early game, we can even out the progression of spells, armor and weapons so it doesn’t feel like they obsolete older versions too quickly, but are still worthwhile upgrades. But the tech system is a giant pace imposing beast that cannot be avoided.
Which is unfortunate, because conceptually I like the tech system in War of Magic. It fits with the rule of 5, and I’ve been using the “breakthrough provides random options” in other parts of the game to provide some design consistency and make the systems feel like they all belong to the same game.
The big problem with the system is that there are 5 tech categories and the research cost of a tech is determined by how many techs you know in that category. The more Military techs you know, the more the next Military tech you are about to learn will cost. The reason for this is that since the player picks the tech after research is done, the game doesn’t know what they are going to research until it’s over. So it can’t have tech specific research costs.
We thought about a lot of ways to improve this and keep the current system. What if we have the tech’s research cost go toward the next tech? What if we have the tech cost be the highest amount and then allow the player to recover research they don’t spend? What if we give an option when the player has enough research to discovered one tech but he can choose to continue researching to get to others?
But in the end they were all flawed and too confusing. So we got out the torch, some kindling and marshmellows and said goodbye.
Then we made the Fallen Enchantress tech tree which includes the following.
1. Tech screen- A tech tree screen where players can plan out their research goals. Distant techs can be selected and the game will automatically queue up the research path to get there.
2. Tech based research costs- Now we can have the best armor tech in the game cost much more than the first weapon tech (previously if they were both the 6th military tech you picked they would cost the same amount).
3. Allegiance prereqs- Techs that are only available for certain allegiances, so even though there is only one tech tree in Fallen Enchantress the Empire and Fallen have different branches to follow. In general kingdoms have extra defensive military techs and empires have extra sorcery techs. There are civilization techs that are unique to each, the kingdoms get cooperation which leads to resources that improve their population growth and the empire get Domination which allows them to work their people to death. (we may update this to allow race specific techs for modders)
4. Random techs- Some techs have a percentage chance of showing up for a player in a game. Every time you start a game your tech tree will be slightly different. You may start a game and have masterwork armor as a tech in your tech tree (25% per game) that you can research at some point to be able to craft better armor for your armies. You may have a tech that allows you to recruit some unusual creatures. Some that grant access to spells that aren’t normally available, etc. This is one of my favorite features because I enjoy looking at my tech tree at the beginning of my game to find out what options are out there. It may change my research plans, it’s like dynamic faction strengths. You may play the Ironeers over again, but in one game they have 3 extra military techs, in another they have an extra adventuring and sorcery tech, etc.
5. Autolayout- The tech tree draws itself and its lines automatically. This was needed because the tech tree will be different every time, so it must be able to lay itself out programmatically. The good news for modders is that they can add techs to their hearts content and they will be automatically added to the tree right where they belong.
6. Cross category prereqs- Techs that require techs in other categories. You can’t rush to big weapons in Fallen Enchantress like you can in War of Magic. You need some civilization techs (blacksmithing) before you will be able to produce metal weapons and armor. You need Literacy in the civilization category before you can learn the adventure tech Ereog’s Journals.
Won’t don’t techs do now? They don’t spawn resources, monsters (monster get tougher over time, but it doesn’t matter what techs you research) or champions (though it takes techs to recruit them). In general everything is on the map at the beginning of the game.
We will talk about the world later, but this is a part of the new design. Explore the world, because you have to find out what’s out there, it isn’t going to be given to you as you research techs. If you don’t have metal near your starting location you may need to find someone to kill to take it (or look into the other 4 ways to control the world). You can’t always come into the game with a plan, you have to adapt a plan based on your starting condition. Techs are a big part of that.
How about a simple toggle that turns randomized tech trees on and off.
Because me, I love being forced to work with what I'm given. I want to be able to research caltrops in one game and slaughter an entire mounted army. I want to come up against a mounted army in a different game without caltrops and say, "damn, caltrops would have been really helpful. Oh well, this time I'll use (insert unique tech for that game)".
Hopefully the AI will be such that you are presented with dangers that force you to adapt to a specific threat, and another threat will come along that you are wholly unprepared for, forcing you once again to adapt and (hopefully) conquer. I just do not think that having things completely locked out to you is an effective way of making you work within your boundaries.
Core features should not be optional.
Sword of the Stars also gives the ability to unlock techs later (salvage and science missions). In SotS II it is planned to have the availiblity of techs be even more fine grained in some way (exact details have not been released yet).
Thanks for the update Derek.
I don't see why these alternatives couldn't simply always exist. That way, the choice to pursue them or not would be up to the player. The decision to choose one alternative over another would then be determined by player skill and ability rather than random chance. How am I, as a player, supposed to know whether I am improving? Did I win a game because I actually got better or because a random tech appeared and I took advantage of it? Regardless of how well I use a random tech to my advantage, it may not appear next game and ultimately my skill level will stay the same. As I play more and more games, the only thing I will (and can) get better at is the act of choosing a tech, rather than how I actually use it. Knowing how to use something is a skill that exists on a much deeper level than simply knowing what to use. Random chance stifles this attempt at bringing depth to the game and should therefore be avoided.
There are better ways of creating unique experiences than using random techs. For starters, make unique experiences be based on a player's actions and decision making ability rather than chance. That way, a player who improves and gets better at the game is rewarded with unique experiences. Anytime a player experiences something unique, they should ask themselves why it happened and how they can learn from it. Random techs do not create an opportunity to do this.
The game does not exist in a vacuum. This is something that a lot of people that always ask for toggles don't understand. Matches with random techs toggled on will be fundamentally different than those with random techs toggled off. A game designer will not be able to provide a consistent gaming experience nor any semblance of balance with toggles - especially toggles for fundamental game mechanics like tech trees.
It sounds to me you're more interested in "gaming" whilst I'm more interested in an experience. I don't care if I'm getting better or if I just got lucky with a tech showing up. Not that I'm saying my perspective is any more or less correct than yours.
For me, I'd rather play a game against an enemy AI, that ends up being limited to a set number of weapons rather than fight against an enemy that is just continuously researching the counter to what ever I'm using - not because I don't want the AI to be a challenge but because I want that specific game's instance of the particular AI to have some character. That way, as I come into contact with more opponents, each one will have a specific flavor in a sense: "Oh those are the guys that ride wargs and are fond of poison; oh no, that approaching army is the siege-engine happy civilization" etc. This also prevents all the enemies from blending together in the late-game, once everyone's had a chance to research their entire tech tree. *Which reminds me
Which is why I said perhaps it would just be nice to have a toggle that allows randomized techs to be on or off (despite Gwenio1's opinion). I mean, why have mods at all - the core mechanics of the game should not be modded... right?
*Derek or anyone, regardless of how random or not the tech tree turns out, would it be possible to implement a rather simple "infinite" tech tree so that those with large, research heavy civilizations can't be entirely caught up on by opposing civilizations in the late-game? By infinite, I allowing the player to infinitely improve any (real-world) researched item already. For example such as specific armors or weapons or building improvements. It could be done on an extremely basic level, just anything little addition would be better than having all civilizations at the same tech level after a certain amount of time.
I have no idea what vacuums have to do with anything I or you just said. That aside, I understand completely what I was asking for, not only on a balance and game design level but also on a technical level as well.
If the technologies are balanced to begin with (meaning that when randomized, people aren't at a drastic disadvantage or advantage based on what tech paths are available) then there would be no drastic change in the balance of the game if the player chose to remove the randomization. Oh sure, the game would play quite differently and have a different feel - but no one opponent would suddenly be able to steam roll everyone (again, if techs are balanced).
Considering other people replied by talking about only being able to see a tech or two ahead in the tree and so on, it's pretty clear that I'm not the only one who didn't take it that way.
There is no world where adding more game mechanics that encourage players to stare at loading screens until they get the start they want is a good thing. We already have that with starting locations, adding ANOTHER random element that has a major impact on how the game goes will compound the problem. Players will do it, and will also complain about feeling forced into doing it to get the right techs.
With more minor random techs its nowhere near the same level of trouble.
It's called variety if you don't like it... then tough, means you need to get out more and try new things
I think you're artificially creating a dividing line where one does not actually exist. What you and I want is not mutually exclusive. I am simply saying that there are better ways for a game to provide whatever experience you are looking for than through the use of random techs.
In your game, the AI is using wars and poison because:
I would argue that my game, where flavor is achieved through decision making ability rather than random chance, is more enjoyable than yours.
By vacuum I mean that the random tech mechanic itself does not exist in isolation but interacts and is dependent upon other mechanics in the game. For example, when designing the game and deciding what monsters spawn in the game world, Stardock would take into account the random techs that a player could get. It is a lot easier to balance and provide an enjoyable experience for a game when the game designer isn't inhibited by random chance. With random techs, it is nearly impossible to create a captivating experience because you would end up trying to cover all of the extreme cases where players would get random techs that totally favor them or totally work against them. By having a toggle, you present a game designer with an impossible task of making a game fun.
I agree, having some random techs shown at start and some shown after certain conditions are met would be good and possibly allow the best of both worlds.
Best regards,Steven.
The idea sounds great, but I believe maybe the tech tree shouldn'd be entirely visible from the beginning. I rather see its development being a surprise as the game progresses. Maybe one should be able to foresee the next two branches of the tree as techs are descovered.
That would add a constant element of surprise during the game, while not completely bring possible bad news at he last minute!
In Age of Wonders new spells become available for research in the spell book as the old ones have been obtained. They are random and that system seems to work for most people. In multiplayer games, that becomes an important element of surprise, where having bad luck is not a game breaking element, but certanly has some weight on the overall balance of forces.
IMO this game needs variety and surprise, and players must adapt to the uniqueness of the world as they progressively discover it. Also the fact of not being able to entirely foresee the future of technology is a totally realistic feature.
I would like to see some technologies restricted to specific races/kingdom. If you capture a city that kingdom or empire you may be able to research these technologies, though the full extent of these new technologies may not be fully revealed.
Being modable is not the same as having a toggle for it in the vanilla game. Toggles are an attempt to please everyone, and that simply does not work. If they took the time to make random techs work well and make it optional, all the time spent developing them would have been better spent elsewhere.
@ marlowwe
Random techs is about having the player make do with a less than optimal situation. Even if the selection varies due to the situation, the optimal path will be choosen every time once it has been identified. Having various without random techs situations only makes the player find one good solution for each. With random techs they will at time have to find other ways to deal with it. And if done right some solutions that will get tried are things that would never have been thought of otherwise.
One way to take out Locusts and that Swarm in Sword of the Stars if you do not get Point Defense (the hard counter) is to send in refinery/tanker ships that will do lots of damage in a large area upon death. No one would ever do this if they always had PD.
I think you are greatly simplifying the issue. Perhaps this wasn't clear before, the reason that the random tech tree in Sword of the Stars works so well is because:
A ) "core" technologies are ensured to be available for everyone.
B ) There are so many technologies and available paths that players still have to make choices despite the fact that they don't have all available technologies. The process of choosing what to research isn't simplified to "Do I select 'Tech A' or 'Tech B' now since 'Tech C' isn't available" but instead is "Alright, I have Tech A, B, D, F, G, and M to choose from. Which would benefit me most now?"
So no, in my game it isn't just an extremely over simplified issue of being awarded those technologies. The player would still have to weigh the warg and poison technologies against others and their situation because there would be many more technologies to choose from.
Lets say for example, based on faction / race and everything, the player has the following technologies available:
This would be ignoring upgrades such as Iron to Steel to Crystal or what have you, poisoned weapons, barbed arrows, boiled leather, etc. Despite all these technologies being available, the player doesn't have access to things such as Long Bows, Recurve Bows, Light Crossbows, Heavy Crossbows, Chainmail, Scalemail, Mauls, Pikes, Halberds, Short Swords, Long Swords, Bastard Swords, Claymores, Horses, Hunting Dogs, Siege Towers, Catapults, Trebuchets, and etc, the player still has to make informed choices.
Now, I would hope that FE actually has more technologies than I've listed. If it actually has significantly fewer, not only will I cry but then the randomized tech tree should be removed because there will be so few choices to begin with it will be rather restrictive and pointless.
To give some insight into the Sword of the Stars tech forest: http://ouroborus.org/sots/map.html
The numbers on the lines indicate the chance you have of a tech becoming availible when you reseach another. Clicking on the tech icons tells the actual chance of getting it over on the right hand side of the page.
Until the developers understand the importance of an extended multiplayer experience all those details will be useless. What's the point of not building a specific item next to an enemy territory if the AI is unable to exploit it fully anyway?
Once you try MP in this kind of games you can never go back (meaning complex strategic games where programming the AI is really tough)
If we DO get random techs (which we obviously are) they are likely to be fringe technology and never core mechanics. Because random core technology is insane, and random fringe technology makes for interesting games. Also the way I see it, it is not a matter of getting a specific tech or not. It is a matter of getting ONE TECH or ANOTHER.
I don't see it as getting denied one technology. I see it as getting only one set of loot from the chest at the end of the dungeon. I'm drunk.
Listen, I hate to be negative at all after you took the time to put something together for us to look at... But, the old tech trees just screamed 'bland'. And while I like everything that you're doing here, I think that a little bit of flavor text, less utilitarian titles, and more nuanced tech function would go a long way.
Because, honestly, right now you might as well name them 'Unlock Game Mechanic 1', 'Unlock Game Mechanic 2', 'Unlock Game Mechanic 3', et cetera. I think that the Civ series did it pretty well (and AC, obviously). Taking a look at this (and I recognize that it's an early look), I can't say that I would be in any danger of actually feeling like I'm rebuilding a civilization, rather than messing around with an electronic toy.
Derek, what do you think of LightofAbraxas' point?
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