In my opinion, the biggest issue in War of Magic is game pace. Some things we can improve. We can speed up the early game, we can even out the progression of spells, armor and weapons so it doesn’t feel like they obsolete older versions too quickly, but are still worthwhile upgrades. But the tech system is a giant pace imposing beast that cannot be avoided.
Which is unfortunate, because conceptually I like the tech system in War of Magic. It fits with the rule of 5, and I’ve been using the “breakthrough provides random options” in other parts of the game to provide some design consistency and make the systems feel like they all belong to the same game.
The big problem with the system is that there are 5 tech categories and the research cost of a tech is determined by how many techs you know in that category. The more Military techs you know, the more the next Military tech you are about to learn will cost. The reason for this is that since the player picks the tech after research is done, the game doesn’t know what they are going to research until it’s over. So it can’t have tech specific research costs.
We thought about a lot of ways to improve this and keep the current system. What if we have the tech’s research cost go toward the next tech? What if we have the tech cost be the highest amount and then allow the player to recover research they don’t spend? What if we give an option when the player has enough research to discovered one tech but he can choose to continue researching to get to others?
But in the end they were all flawed and too confusing. So we got out the torch, some kindling and marshmellows and said goodbye.
Then we made the Fallen Enchantress tech tree which includes the following.
1. Tech screen- A tech tree screen where players can plan out their research goals. Distant techs can be selected and the game will automatically queue up the research path to get there.
2. Tech based research costs- Now we can have the best armor tech in the game cost much more than the first weapon tech (previously if they were both the 6th military tech you picked they would cost the same amount).
3. Allegiance prereqs- Techs that are only available for certain allegiances, so even though there is only one tech tree in Fallen Enchantress the Empire and Fallen have different branches to follow. In general kingdoms have extra defensive military techs and empires have extra sorcery techs. There are civilization techs that are unique to each, the kingdoms get cooperation which leads to resources that improve their population growth and the empire get Domination which allows them to work their people to death. (we may update this to allow race specific techs for modders)
4. Random techs- Some techs have a percentage chance of showing up for a player in a game. Every time you start a game your tech tree will be slightly different. You may start a game and have masterwork armor as a tech in your tech tree (25% per game) that you can research at some point to be able to craft better armor for your armies. You may have a tech that allows you to recruit some unusual creatures. Some that grant access to spells that aren’t normally available, etc. This is one of my favorite features because I enjoy looking at my tech tree at the beginning of my game to find out what options are out there. It may change my research plans, it’s like dynamic faction strengths. You may play the Ironeers over again, but in one game they have 3 extra military techs, in another they have an extra adventuring and sorcery tech, etc.
5. Autolayout- The tech tree draws itself and its lines automatically. This was needed because the tech tree will be different every time, so it must be able to lay itself out programmatically. The good news for modders is that they can add techs to their hearts content and they will be automatically added to the tree right where they belong.
6. Cross category prereqs- Techs that require techs in other categories. You can’t rush to big weapons in Fallen Enchantress like you can in War of Magic. You need some civilization techs (blacksmithing) before you will be able to produce metal weapons and armor. You need Literacy in the civilization category before you can learn the adventure tech Ereog’s Journals.
Won’t don’t techs do now? They don’t spawn resources, monsters (monster get tougher over time, but it doesn’t matter what techs you research) or champions (though it takes techs to recruit them). In general everything is on the map at the beginning of the game.
We will talk about the world later, but this is a part of the new design. Explore the world, because you have to find out what’s out there, it isn’t going to be given to you as you research techs. If you don’t have metal near your starting location you may need to find someone to kill to take it (or look into the other 4 ways to control the world). You can’t always come into the game with a plan, you have to adapt a plan based on your starting condition. Techs are a big part of that.
Thanks for the great dev journal Derek. Its been a little too quiet around here lately.
I'm just going to propose a small suggestion. As for random techs being "visable" in the tree. You could always have all random techs visible from the start and denote them with an icon (Dice maybe, question mark). Then when the prereq's have been met, the tech will either fade signaling that it was not available or it will be researchable.
Just some thoughts.
Dear Devs,
Might I ask whether it will be possible for modding to make different technologies cost different resources? (treating research points as one such resource, in this case) I've long been hoping to make a mod that differentiates between different types of research capability (beyond the traditional magic/science split), but it seemed completely and utterly incompatible with WoM's tech system (and I've been leaning towards trying to hack such a thing together with Civ instead).
Thanks,
Rapidly, the things I did not like about the War of magic tech system was:
A- Some research field has 2 or 3 times more technologies than other fields (ex: warfare vs diplomacy). In my point of view, the amount of tech in each field should be relatively close.
B-Warfare simply had too much techs.
C-Making magic part of the tech tree prevented to create a dual path to victory: The tech way or the magic way. Now it becomes, tech is essential, magic is optional. Which is the same problem encountered in many fantasy games like age of wonders for example.
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I think that it will work it self out and won't be a problem. a good game evolves itself throughout the span of play. a smart player won't just go down a single path, especially if they are playing against a smart opponent. if you spend all of your research points going down a single path then you can be easily countered and will prob have a hard time recovering. as long as the game has enough tech to allow a large amount of flexibility I don't think anybody will just put all their eggs in one basket.
also there should be some forgotten tech paths that you find on quests as well. when you find say a lost volume, it opens up a new area on the quest tree. these should be game changers i think, and would go along way to making the tech a bit more random as well.
example: on a quest you find the third volume in an ancient 5 volume set. when you collect all 5(by quests, trade, treasure etc) it opens a new tech path in the area of Golem making. this allows you to research the golem unit and golem factory. down this path you will be able research new types of golems, golem abilities, and enhancements.
while this tech would be powerful there are only 5 books in the game. if 1 player has 2 books and the other 3 then they would have to trade them to each other, hire an independent agent to steal it from the other player, or outright go to war over it and to try take them by force.
Great, but can anyone please tell me when does 1.2 will be out. I just want to play the game and not have to reboot it every turn.....
A lot of discusion about adding random techs and how. But this is all focusing around game mechanics. I like to take a different aproach. Whats is the world you want to decribe/simulate. We do not live in a fully known world (boaring) and nothing is fully planable. A lot of fun in civ (iv) for example is due to the fact that you discover very late in the game. -- S*** got no oil on my territory! -- and need to act from there on. So life is not fair, ok deal with it.
If everybody is just free to tech what he wants it reduces all to holding (more) citys. Additionaly the only limiting factor to keep teching slow enough is to increase the research cost more and more. So basicaly you only have one chance. Grow so you can tech more. This is not the world i would prefer, i would like a world which requires you to go out and do stuff and then have a relative fast research. Or stay at home and maybe have nothing to reseach becourse you discover nothing new.
Finally, another dev journal from Derek. It has been too long.
Tell me if I got this right: You scrapped the old tech system an replaced with one very much like Civilization in terms of look, tech costs, and prerequisites.
Also, sorry for being nit picky, but about the picture of the UI you posted in the OP, how are we supposed to scroll the tech tree up, down, left, and right?
Go on. Go on.
Speaking of balance and tech, there is one thing that always nagged me about TBS games: large factions have a large advantage at producing tech, leaving small factions lagging far behind. In Civilization terms, I'm thinking tanks and helicopters vs. musketeers. In FE, how does the little guy remain relevant in a game with large superpowers. Are small factions fighting a lost cause because they cannot build as many... libraries as the larger factions?
Exactly my point.
Next week - see the OP here (the subcomment below the subject line): https://forums.elementalgame.com/408167
I haven't played elemental so I can't make a direct comparison, but I feel like this new tech tree concept is a bad direction to take.
I am a big fan of MoM and AoW and neither of those games even have global tech... its all per-city.
I think that having global tech is fine... but the civilization route of researching a building, then constructing it is a bit dreary. One of the cool things about MoM is that you can gain technology by conquering. You can take over neutral or enemy cities and use the buildings there to make units you normally couldn't build. This adds an extra dimension to warfare.
Also, I think the research one thing at a time approach is a bit dated. Yes, it simplifies the experience, but it also is totally unrealistic. More than half of all our major scientific inventions came about through chance or independent research, not state sponsored efforts. I think that you should create a model where progress is inevitable, inventions pop up somewhat spontaneously, and instead of meticulously guiding your scientific pursuits, you simply steer it towards your intended destination.
I also encourage you to put a strong emphasis on the spread of technology using caravans, diplomacy, trade agreements, experience in combat, theft/espionage, and military conquest.
You can have your simple choose one spell and learn it system for the magic research.
Ya this always bugs me as well.
Derek, just wanted to say that after reading the OP I thought I'd like parts of the tech trees to be hidden away to give more excitement and randomness, but after reading your two replies I became pretty convinced that it's better the way you have set it up currently. Thanks for the journal and replies, info on FE is pretty scarce.
Modding is not an excuse to do things wrong in the base game. Neither is multiplayer. Making god-mode random techs is a very real SP problem because we know from decades of experience in gaming that people will figure out how strong they are, and then will keep restarting games to get the ones they want.
That's a bad thing.
But since only a part of the tree is random, the rest is fixed. That means players will learn it. By hiding something I already know is there, all you're doing is making the tree confusing for newbies and the UI more cumbersome for experienced players. It doesn't give you a game mechanic. You *could* hide the randoms, but hiding fixed stuff is just pointless.
Auto-pathing down the tree also isn't really a problem if the trees are all useful, because there will be cheap things you'll want in all of them as the game evolves. That only happens if you can really get to master +2 holy avenger sword making without wanting things from the other trees aside from the necessities.
But in a good game you'd want some stuff anyway, so you can have casters with spells, or magical defenses, or research centers, or recruits, etc.
Age of Wonders does not have tech research.
I thought having static techs be visible was something not worth mentioning because it is so obvious.
Another thought would be to have quest that make special techs availible or can unlock random techs if they are not already availible.
My concern with the randomized tech system currently, is that the "randomization" seems like an artificial way to present choice, and non-linearity. I fear that starting off with all of your faction's intrinsic techs, and the randomized techs already known to you, will seem too regimented to the player.
This, to me, has always seemed to be an occurrence solely contained within the realm of games. As you well know, research in real life is not based on the presupposition that we know what the outcome will be.
Anyway, my partial solution is to have randomized techs have a chance of "unlocking" when you finish researching a faction inherent tech. To expound, the random tech would be tied to the specific research tree that you are currently researching in, id est military, social, et cetera. As a result, the tech tree would always be branching, leaving it up to the player to reach the end of the branch, or to continue along the trunk to see what other branches may sprout.
I would also be sure to construct the technologies in such a way that all of the techs that are available to your faction be available in a single game. This way, no player is left wondering where some of the things that were available to them in a previous game went. Players can also be presented with a sense of choice, and will also let players specialize their empire as well.
Meh, better to not have everything availible as it increases replay value.
This might have been said already but:
Randomized tech trees are not about awarding players technologies that are more powerful than base technologies; it's about giving the player alternatives that may or may not be helpful depending upon how the game unfolds.
For example, many of the random technologies in Sword of the Stars are not simply "bigger guns" but instead are "different guns". One game, you'll be wishing you had a technology from the previous game, not because it was more powerful, but because in the specific situation it would have been helpful.
So I guess, in the end, depending upon the game's design and budgets etc, try and create distinctive paths in the tech tree (for each category) that offer something unique that the other paths don't. Then you can start closing off and opening the paths semi-randomly to ensure that each game is a unique experience.
I agree; however, what I proposed was that all technologies just be available in a single game, not that you research all of them in a single game. This way you have a choice without technologies being restricted for a whole game for no other reason than a roll of the proverbial dice.
The dev team could implement my suggestion in such a way that technologies could be tied to specific or random quests. The player then has the choice of embarking upon said quests, or leaving them to focus on other aspects of empire building.
*whoops, forgot about quoting
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