In my opinion, the biggest issue in War of Magic is game pace. Some things we can improve. We can speed up the early game, we can even out the progression of spells, armor and weapons so it doesn’t feel like they obsolete older versions too quickly, but are still worthwhile upgrades. But the tech system is a giant pace imposing beast that cannot be avoided.
Which is unfortunate, because conceptually I like the tech system in War of Magic. It fits with the rule of 5, and I’ve been using the “breakthrough provides random options” in other parts of the game to provide some design consistency and make the systems feel like they all belong to the same game.
The big problem with the system is that there are 5 tech categories and the research cost of a tech is determined by how many techs you know in that category. The more Military techs you know, the more the next Military tech you are about to learn will cost. The reason for this is that since the player picks the tech after research is done, the game doesn’t know what they are going to research until it’s over. So it can’t have tech specific research costs.
We thought about a lot of ways to improve this and keep the current system. What if we have the tech’s research cost go toward the next tech? What if we have the tech cost be the highest amount and then allow the player to recover research they don’t spend? What if we give an option when the player has enough research to discovered one tech but he can choose to continue researching to get to others?
But in the end they were all flawed and too confusing. So we got out the torch, some kindling and marshmellows and said goodbye.
Then we made the Fallen Enchantress tech tree which includes the following.
1. Tech screen- A tech tree screen where players can plan out their research goals. Distant techs can be selected and the game will automatically queue up the research path to get there.
2. Tech based research costs- Now we can have the best armor tech in the game cost much more than the first weapon tech (previously if they were both the 6th military tech you picked they would cost the same amount).
3. Allegiance prereqs- Techs that are only available for certain allegiances, so even though there is only one tech tree in Fallen Enchantress the Empire and Fallen have different branches to follow. In general kingdoms have extra defensive military techs and empires have extra sorcery techs. There are civilization techs that are unique to each, the kingdoms get cooperation which leads to resources that improve their population growth and the empire get Domination which allows them to work their people to death. (we may update this to allow race specific techs for modders)
4. Random techs- Some techs have a percentage chance of showing up for a player in a game. Every time you start a game your tech tree will be slightly different. You may start a game and have masterwork armor as a tech in your tech tree (25% per game) that you can research at some point to be able to craft better armor for your armies. You may have a tech that allows you to recruit some unusual creatures. Some that grant access to spells that aren’t normally available, etc. This is one of my favorite features because I enjoy looking at my tech tree at the beginning of my game to find out what options are out there. It may change my research plans, it’s like dynamic faction strengths. You may play the Ironeers over again, but in one game they have 3 extra military techs, in another they have an extra adventuring and sorcery tech, etc.
5. Autolayout- The tech tree draws itself and its lines automatically. This was needed because the tech tree will be different every time, so it must be able to lay itself out programmatically. The good news for modders is that they can add techs to their hearts content and they will be automatically added to the tree right where they belong.
6. Cross category prereqs- Techs that require techs in other categories. You can’t rush to big weapons in Fallen Enchantress like you can in War of Magic. You need some civilization techs (blacksmithing) before you will be able to produce metal weapons and armor. You need Literacy in the civilization category before you can learn the adventure tech Ereog’s Journals.
Won’t don’t techs do now? They don’t spawn resources, monsters (monster get tougher over time, but it doesn’t matter what techs you research) or champions (though it takes techs to recruit them). In general everything is on the map at the beginning of the game.
We will talk about the world later, but this is a part of the new design. Explore the world, because you have to find out what’s out there, it isn’t going to be given to you as you research techs. If you don’t have metal near your starting location you may need to find someone to kill to take it (or look into the other 4 ways to control the world). You can’t always come into the game with a plan, you have to adapt a plan based on your starting condition. Techs are a big part of that.
Oh just had another idear.
@Wilson You are right, all above would indeed create a better fantasy feeling and allow more "complex" quests. On more thought on that.
How about quests which needs you to research some thing. E.g. look up some stuff in the libary (like in the real world ) This would be a real comitmend for your kingdom. In general im a lot into mearging different game aspects into one adventure/mechanic:
Need a special place -> reasearch -> cast a spell (and pay mana upkeep) -> go through the portal ->kill monster -> get item ...
Same for spells and artefact creation. How about creating incrediants for spells (midnight stone?) so casting would be difficult/expensive.
This may favour balanced kingdoms over specialized, i know but cool anyway. I think combining different aspects would enrich the world.
Great to see. My biggest complaint of EWOM was the tech system.
Looks like you've been reading some of my old posts
I love this
and this
Looking spectacular!
Love the changes. The tech system in WOM was a huge problem with the game. It sounded neat, but didn't work.
Worries/concerns/ideas:
1) Random techs, keep no matter what, but I have some concerns
- Micromanagement: people will be scouring the whole tech tree at the start of the game. I'd like to see the hidden techs hidden until you research a prerequisite, so you don't know what you can discover.
- I'm worried the randomization might screw some games over, but I think this problem is worth the benefit. I'd include some sort of normalization system so all civs get the same value of random techs.
- I'd like to see quests/goodie huts have a chance to unlock extra rare techs down the road, though they'd still have to be researched and discovered (maybe a hint as to where this tech would be , like magic tree, adventure tree)
2) There are weaknesses with a more traditionally modelled tech system- such as big empires gaining too much of a tech advantage. Do you think that is a problem, or could be a problem? Way too early to tell this, and this is something that can be changed/fixed over time, so it's a minor worry.
3) I'd love to see Lost Libraries changed from providing +Tech to +Creativity (in the GalCiv 2 sense)
4) Scholars should be able to level up their +tech bonus, or should do it automatically over time.
5) "future tech" when the tech tree is exhausted, that should give a chance to unlock another hidden techs
6) We need another hidden techs in the game, that someone who plays the game for a year, is not guaranteed to discover them all, even if it means adding techs in via patch. Some rare techs should be 5% or less chance.
Nearly everything sounds good. It feels like in 2008/2009 when we thought WoM would be THE fantasy 4x TBS
I like the random techs but I'd say the techtree should be hidden so people don't restart over and over to get "that" tech.
Yeah we talked a lot about the risk of people restarting to try to get some particular random tech they want, or a combo they like. It's a smaller version of the risk of people restarting to get a starting location they want.
It's a legitimate risk. We are attempting to balance that by not having the random techs be to powerful. Things like Masterwork Shields, once researched, allows the player to make better quality shields for his units. But I don't imagine that people will be restarting because they feel like they need that. One of the diplomacy random techs makes a particular type of recruitable creature start at level 3 instead of 1.
But we will see, it is a fine line. If we overuse the mechanic it becomes exactly like you say, and people will be restarting to get the layout they want (which isn't fun).
As for knowing about the availability of random techs from the beginning of the game or not. Both options have their advantages. But the big one in my mind (understanding that random techs are massive game changes) is that players have to be able to plan out their long term strategy. The whole point is that players are given an opportunity where they may be strong in a particular area. Having that opportunity but no knowledge of it doesn't allow the player to account for it in his game plan.
And, as always, this is all open to playtest feedback. The really important thing is that we have a system that supports it. From here we can make techs random or not, adjust their odds, and build out the tree to make it as fun as possible. What happens during iteration (when you folks get to play and offer feedback) will certainly effect how it is used.
This sounds great, love the changes but my concern is with differentiating factions. Kingdoms and Empire have different tech trees which is good but what about the factions in each? Seems like Gilden and Altar will still basically be the same. Would be nice to have some different variations of the tech tree per each of these factions. Will there be any other things you guys are doing to differentiate the factions? Different look of armors? Some different building styles? I don't want every faction to look and feel like every other faction.
Nice changes.
Just a thought, you could have a high level (expensive) research "Mysterious Research" or something similar that would bring (potentially) in a random tech that you don't have but may need or want. That might alleviate the desire to restart somewhat.
Otherwise, seems good.If you could just make meaningful and surprising techs and not just Sword1 - Sword2 - Sword3... People are already living, they can make an axe, a pike, cut wood,... But techs improving the art of war (better logistics, better communications by flags or horns allowing to command bigger squads) or making new kinds of weapons by combining things (Egyptian war chariots with knifes on wheels, ha ha!), that is cool. And I'm just talking about military techs here, I hope the 4 other domains are equally interesting.
Or the ability to design factions with traits that allow them to guarantee they get certain random techs. So if they really want a certain tech they can get it for a cost without restarting.
What he said. It is a good compromise between knowns and unknowns, and would make for more interesting and varied gameplay, IMO. If something is too far advanced, it is beyond comprehension and impossible to beeline to. Think of a 18th cenury culture beelining to cell phones.
Personally, I want to see some game-changing if not game-breaking random techs. Without some muscle behind this mechanic, it's something people won't take into account, and then it becomes fluff. The downside is if they're the most fun techs, people will complain about not having fun every game.
I think if you have a huge amount of random techs, and some sort of equalization factor- then people will keep playing for that new thing they don't know about.
As long as it's moddable, people can change it how they want (it could even be an in-game option)
this is all very wise, a lot of thought has clearly gone into it.
my thoughts?
getting rid of techs spawning resources and monsters is exactly what the game needs. the problem with the resource system was that instead of encouraging players to pursue different, equally valid paths, it simply slowed or boosted you ability to do ANYTHING (ie, locked some factions in a situation where there was not enough food to grow and do anything else) and then, by the time you got to the mid game resources were made redundant by the fact that you could spawn resources that were actually more powerful than the naturally ocurring ones, defeating the stated objective of the system.
currently, the strategy in elemental is not the strategy of which spell to cast or how to design your units, or whether to recruit monsters or anything like that. it is instead a race to get the techs and food to grow the population to grow the income to research the techs to get the units, and whoever end up getting that working core civ first ends up winning. no one wants to go adventuring or research shard mastery when they can't recruit a spearman to defend their capital while they're away. this is the existing pacing problem.
the new tech system will be fantastic so long as
- the formation of that core, working civilization becomes something that just "happens," rather than something i can do faster and better than everyone else by diving straight after certain food bonus/housing or 2x research production techs
- the resource spawning is much better than at present. taking away spawnable resources is a good idea, but it can't stand in the way of getting that basic working civ i described. we can't have a situation where there are whole subcontinents of the map where no one builds anything because there aren't any resources there (happens already)
- there remains a certain amount of flexibility and ability to research your way out of a problem. so even if i have no metal or horses at the start, i should still be able to produce a small amount if i work at it. these are better as expensive city improvements rather than spawnable resources, and should never be a patch on natural resources
food is so key. atm the game is food > people > money > tech. food rules everything. i get the feeling there is a new food system coming in FE, but i can only comment on what we have. food resource spawning needs to be a lot more diffuse (maybe a simply food per unit territory thing?) to allow people to get that base civilization.
As I was never too fond of the original research system, this is indeed happy news.
No complaints, only a great desire for:
This!
REDEMPTION. It *is* possible. After months and months, I get to read these magic words. At last.
Now - please: stick to this plan!!! (Maybe with the exception of a few resources that couldn't be spotted without the proper tech).
There is next to no point in having random techs, if they're all nearly inconsequential. It needs to be a game-changer. If a tech is just "oh, I get this slight advantage this time" then it means nothing. It's just an added dice-roll to make the game slightly more about random chance, without really adding anything of worth. It needs to be something that will actually alter people's games. And it needs to be a significant portion of the tech you access. At least a quarter, in an average game. More would be better, if you can make that work. If you can play exactly the same with one random outcome as with another, then the tech tree might as well just be fully static.
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It's a balancing act. They shouldn't be so big that they overwhelm or are the key features of the game, and they shouldnt be so small that they are inconsequential.
It is the risk of dev journal releases like this where we focus on one aspect of the game. The tendency is to make that aspect seem like a large critical component of the game. But each feature only has a particular niche it should fit into. The trick of design isn't in coming up with ideas and features, but in figuring out how they balance against each other.
As with magical equipment. It can't be so big and common that it makes non-magical equipment worthless. But it has to be big enough that they are special, and common enough that the player gets to enjoy them. A balancing act.
In my opinion, random techs should matter, but they shouldn't overwhelm features like faction traits (if your random techs matter more than the faction you selected then that's giving them to much weight). It also shouldn't matter more than your starting location. I know it sounds better to talk about each feature as a key large mechanic, but random techs aren't that. They are feature depth, they add replayability. They are not intended to be game changing. we wouldn't, for example, want players to get used to simply looking at their starting tree for random techs they got and always rushing for them because thats the most effective way to play.
ps. When we talk about big crazy game changing things, that's another piece of the design pie, that aspect belongs to quests.
One of the things I always dreaded in my CIV games was advancing too far and loosing the positive benefits of some techs. It always made me think more about how much do I need certain techs to be able to win a game. Right now, there is nothing to lose by advancing in techs, you only gain. So I think there should be a system of obsoleting techs.
As for the quoted post, I like the ideas in BOLD the best, though all have some value to add depth to the game.
The idea of having good and bad results from advancement in techs would seem to me to be a very big item to have in the game.
Good thought. What if the random techs showed up only when the necessary pre-req was completed? Like for instance, you are researching the use of crystals in the creation of magic items, and when you complete the beginning tech there you get a random tech where one of the researchers noticed that normal light streaming through certain crystals could be directed and refracted into the pretty colors. So you get a random tech to research to 'beautify' your cities with refracted light adding +1 happiness.
You don't see the tech listed in the tech at the beginning of the game, but instead shows up when you researched the basics of the crystals.
I agree, making it harder to know what will be possible would be good and having no idea what will be availible is bad. Possibly hiding the later techs (beyond those immediately availible) and being able to launch special research projects (separate from and cheaper than normal research) to see what you will be able to get later on would be a good middle ground.
Definitely check out the Sword of the Stars tech tree. Masterfully done, and it looks like Elemental is definitely headed very much so in that direction right now. Random techs (which weren't revealed until the prereq tech), breakthroughs, etc. If Elemental used a similar system, I'd be quite satisfied.
That is true, there are no surprise windfalls or revelations in the tree. Those are provided by other parts of the game that will force players to reevaluate and adjust their research. They should come from diplomatic, military, adventure or magic opportunities that arise during normal game play and tempt (or threaten) the player to make changes.
Again a dev journal entry on a single feature is always a myoptic look at the game. And I agree with your opinion that we dont want player settling on a strategy in the first 5 turns and then riding it out until the end game. But the question is, what system should we put in place to make sure that doesn't happen? I don't think its hiding the tech tree (and I dont think revealing randoms tech later is a good way to reach that goal). we have other features that will accomplish that goal.
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