On another blog, a fellow JoeUser asked the following questions and made the following comments:
I am irritated with the closed-mindedness of organizations with causes. If there is only one way (YOUR way) to reach God … why are there so many divergent paths and religions making the same claim? What makes you think it is even conceivable that a paper trail in excess of 2000 years could contain much resemblance to the original fictions?
I am sure you have heard of the test that goes like this: Get a group of 10 people in a circle and whisper a statement to one person. Then they whisper it to the next and so on. There has never been a valid documented case where the original statement bore much resemblance to the 10th person’s statement. This is simply explained with the fact that people are different and they think ‘differently’. Organizations do not like this concept which they classify as ‘self-serving individualism’.
I must be a fool (as you are want to tell me) because I do not believe that the concepts of lying, deceit and conspiracy, power struggles, suppressing the masses, limiting real knowledge, murder, deception and intrigue are new to this century or any other for that matter. But of course, religious theology was not susceptible to human contamination … of course. I believe these concepts were in existence long before recorded time. Why would this befouling of the truth affecting all of human history, exclude ONLY Christian Doctrine? Only mind dead robots could believe this absurdity.
Aye-yi-yi.
First, it must be pointed out there is a vast difference between Christ and His Holy religion, Christianity, and Mohammed who established Islam around 650AD. There is also a vast difference between the way Christianity and Islam is spread to others.
Christ established His Church and commanded that she preach and teach His doctrines first to the Jews and afterwards that she "go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.". So that's what "my people", the Church, did! This is the way individuals became/become Catholic. It's called conversion. At the time of the Crusades, the people in Jerusalem, Egypt, Libya, all of North Africa, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Asia Minor had already heard about Christ, His teachings and became converted to Catholicism.
Read Mohammed's history, the Qur'an, and the imposition of Islam upon individuals throughout the ages. Islam means submission and not in a passive sense. Submission for the followers of Mohammed means to carry out the doctrine of jihad ...a permanent war to reign until Islam is dominant all over the world. Islam's domination of the world was spread by the sword and it nearly destroyed all of Christendom had it not been for the calling of the Crusades.
The fact is the presence of Christianity in the Middle East and Europe antedates that of Islam by more than half a millennium. So, it's Islam, the latecomer, the aggressive and militant force determined to uproot the religion of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, who first took up arms against Catholics.
Islam intent for domination is by no means over today. It's strong over a billion adherants around the world. They've taken over North Africa and parts of what was first Catholic, then Protestant, now secular Europe. Islam is on the move. It's a present threat and not to be minimized. Especially in England, France and the Netherlands. For the Catholics there, just as centuries earlier, it's about freedom to practice their religion.
EDIT:
Sudan is officially declaring sharia to be the law of the land -- and that spells trouble for Christians there.
The government is introducing an entirely Islamic constitution, which means a very strict form of sharia. President Omar Al-Bashir is quoted as saying the new constitution will reflect the fact that 98 percent of the people are Muslim. "The official religion will be Islam and Islamic law the main source," he stated on October 12. Al-Bashir had voiced similar warnings last December, before the secession of South Sudan. Jonathan Racho of International Christian Concern tells OneNewsNow that the Republic of South Sudan, which is mostly Christian and animist, will not be affected by the move because it seceded this summer. But Christians still live in the north, he cautions. "So if the government of Sudan introduces strict Islamic law, it means that the rights of the Christians in Sudan and other Muslims in Sudan are going to be compromised," Racho warns. But to what extent will their rights and beliefs be compromised? "People who are not Muslims who live in an Islamic state are not considered as full citizens and they are deprived of their freedom to worship," he explains. "That includes freedom to assemble together and worship the Lord and freedom to speak about their faith to others." The constitution would impact the Nuba Mountains, which is predominately Christian and a region that wanted to secede with the South but was not permitted to do so. Sudan has been bombing the region and destroying villages and churches.
According to Open Doors USA, Sudan is one of the 50 countries in which the worst Christian persecution exists.
The Dark Ages, nothing but another vain attempt at slamming the Church.
Why don't you try to find out the truth instead of taking for granted these assertions you come across? Is it because of prejudice and hate against the Church?
As regards to your estimate of the Dark Ages, 2 things are necessary when drawing conclusions from history. 1st...get your facts right and 2nd---get your interpretation of the facts right . You've done neither of these.
The "Dark Ages" is the Renaissance humanists derogatory designation for the Middle Ages. When I look up "Dark Ages" in my daughter's history book, I'm referred to "the Middle Ages". I note it describes the High Middle Ages as well.
Scientific historical research uncovered the rich development of the Middle Ages in the fields of technology, (i.e the wheeled plow, the horse collar and shoe, the crank motion and soap), in philosophy, music, art, literature economic expansion and education. I
The Church was highly involved in medieval architecture, music, painting and sculpture and education. Her monks founded schools and Universities all over Europe, copiously hand preserved the literature of the day. Professor Whitehead, a non-Catholic, said that the Middle Ages were pre-eminently an epic of orderly thought, rationalist through and through---forming one long training of the intellect of Western Europe in the sense of order."
You might want to go to the local library and check out the book entitled, "The World's Debt to the Catholic Church" by Dr. James J. Walsh. It will surprise you.
As regards to your estimate of the Dark Ages, I'm willing to admit from the moral POV, that the fourteenth and fifteenth century could rightly be thus called. Side by side of the revival of art and literature there was also a revival of pagan morality in place of Christian virtues. Intellectual interest in a sensual philosophy very easily ends in a greater interest in sensuality. Men, interested in pagan classics, absorbed immoral poison of what they contained and they fell into vices quite at variance with Catholic standards. Men began to write filth only to render their beautiful souls filthy. The Renaissance had very ill effects upon the religious lives of both clergy and laity, and rendered the times very dark indeed from a moral point of view.
It is no wonder that you cannot reason things if your thoughts are as jumbled as your quotes and responses. If there was any intelligence for your first three quotes … I sure don’t see it. All I said was that Catholic and European expansionism around the world (want to see the map?) resulted in countless deaths including the destruction of complete cultures. Not sure that has much to do with the Crusades though? If there is some lie or whatnot in your quotes of 199, 167, 181 feel free to let me know???
“In my reply 174, I said it's always been acknowledged that Catholics have killed and brought violence to others... “. I am sure you did, who cares. Seems like a small footnote though considering the scope and extent of the murders made in the name of god is all. Pelosi is a Catholic … that explains a lot, hehehe. I tried on several occasions to explain to you that the barbarism of The Roman Catholic Church was doomed and through its own stupidity, go figure. I believe your eventual destiny was sealed with the invention of the telescope and through the efforts of human patriots who defied the Church.
“I also asked a real thinking question......what does the sorry fact that Catholics have brought death and violence and destruction to others prove? It proves that you are a bunch of hypocrites or in the words of our own few Natives … you speak with forked tongues”. Why must everything be so final … Come on now, completely eradicated, save that one for the other extremists like your Jihadist friends. Yea, certainly cannot be Christianity or the practitioners fault … it must say this is so somewhere in your bible right, get a life.
“You are free to look at what atheistic regimes have done and are doing....yet that has gone without your notice or rebuttal.” Silly, how can I rebut something that has presumably gone without my notice? You are a wonderment so full of … surprises. You have no idea how silly you sound here (hahaha). Yea, Hitler, Stalin and the rest were probably heroes of mine too … because of what???
… But then again, who am I to question the unquestionable or at least to ask the unthinkable, God forbid.
Lula, I know that the Catholic Church has done many good things but the betterment of the human race never was and never will be one of their goals. But it is my opinion that the Church has done more harm than good throughout its existence. As far as I can figure the “Dark Ages” runs from the fall of Western Roman Empire in 476 AD to the 11th century whereas the “Middle Ages” runs from 476 AD to the 15th century. “Why don’t I find out the truth???) … You must be joking, geeze. I am not drawing conclusions (ok, some) but rather relating things that turned up in my research ... you know … kind of like you do??? You and I do not get our information from the same places for sure but it is nice to see that you can write without scriptures or mystical quotes from seasoned Catholics.
Maybe there are a few things we can establish so we do no keep this nonsense from getting worse. 1.The Catholic Church’s word (bible included) is the only word you accept to be true and correct. 2.All ‘other’ religions (or non-religions???) or religious practices anywhere in the world are all fakes or imitators. 3.All your research (knowledge) comes from the confines of Catholic (religious) approved sources. 4.You do not watch R rated movies because you find them offensive. 5.Your one God never wrote the first word in any of your books or literature. 6.You are a spokesperson for the Catholic Church and a true believer. 7.Only #5 and #2 (when you take out the word ‘other’) applies to me.
If you find that 1 through 6 apply to you … well then, there is the problem. Just because you have sequestered yourself behind the veil of the Church doesn’t mean there isn’t a wealth of knowledge available to the rest of us pagans. Yea, I like that much better than atheist if for no other reason than atheist means so much to you … none of which applies to me (beyond the obvious). Michelle, the pagan … I like that much better. And just so you know, I think the one God of the Torah, the one God of the Bible and the one God of the Koran (among others) are confusing at best but I leave that in your capable hands because they are all fakes IMO.
Sorry to hear about Sudan … Sharia law is most likely how the cave men lived (with nuke club in hand) so I guess it predates well everything. One would think that after 50,000 7,000 years they could at least get one foot on the evolutionary ladder of life … I guess not. Joking aside, just remember this. You told me that it was your duty no your obligation to take your Catholic religion on the road and you have of your own free volition. Many times I have told you about death and destruction precipitated directly from Catholic Doctrine. You have been at war with Islam (and just about everyone else) since your inceptions. You do know what war is and what results from it don’t you. So you convert some portion of the population to Christianity and things change. Just because you think it is your godly right to take dominion of the Earth, you have not done so yet and never will. Your people are in a no win situation and your Church has at best a few prayers for them. Personally, I would leave but that’s just me.
BT,
Your original statement was:
OK. Let's back up just a bit. European expansionism involves many more than just Catholics. So if you had said just "European expansionists have brought death and destruction to millions of people around the world", we'd be discussing a completely different topic.
But this blog is about different religions and so I've limited my responses to your slams against Catholics, the Catholic Church and the true Christian religion which is Catholicism.
As I see it, in order to make your point, that Catholic expansionism around the world resulted in countless deaths in the millions, you brought up the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Dark Ages. Here's the quote:
I've tried to make you understand that the actual historical facts about the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Dark Ages don't support your charge in 167 and 203. That's all.
The Crusades were a series of defensive wars against Islam jihadists undertaken in the Middle Ages between the 11th and 13th centuries. In war, people die. Had the Muslim jihadists won, it would have entailed the utter destruction of Christian society (Christendom) and its replacement with Sharia.
Madden, author of "A Concise History of the Crusades" wrote "If, from the safety of our desks, we are quick to condemn the medieval Crusader, we should be mindful that he would be just as quick to condemn us. Our infinitely more destructive wars waged for the sake of political and social ideologies would, in his opinion, be lamentable wastes of human life. In both societies, medieval and the modern, people fight for what is most dear to them...for medieval men and women, the crusade was an act of piety, charity and love, but it was also a means of defending their world, their culture, and their way of life."
As to the Inquisition, favorite bigotries die hard. But let's stick to accurate history. Modern scholarship asserts the correct number of people sentenced to death is between 3 to 5 thousand, not in the millions. Go to the Internet and google Wiki...it explains that "The entire populations of Europe would have been wiped out if inquisitors had killed in those numbers!"
In truth, 90% of the sentences were canonical, that is Church related penances...fasting, pilgrimage, increased attendance at Holy Mass, the wearing of distinctive clothing or badges, etc.
Most probably the greatest catastrophe that killed people at that time was called the Black Death also known as the "bubonic plague", the name derived from the Greek word for groin, (boubon); the lymph nodes were the first areas to be affected.
Estimates are that one-third of Europe's population died, about 20 million people.
So as far as your trite old charge that the Catholic Church and Christianity have wreaked death and destruction in the millions all over the world using the Crusades, Inquistion, and Dark Ages, I've tried to make you see the facts are quite different between myths, fables, inaccurate history, revisionist history and downright lies and actual history.
Maybe you are not convinced, but it isn't because I haven't tried.
You say this only because you truly do not know the Catholic Church. The late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said, "There are not over a hundred people in the US who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the CC, which of course is quite a different thing."
If you would have the right idea of the Catholic Church, you would not have your present prejudices.
If Catholics genuinely believed all that they are condemned for believing, they would indeed deserve to be dismissed.
for example, Catholics don't worship statues or the Blessed Virgin Mary, but that's one of the Protestant's favorite charges! But I digress...
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The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Catholic Church exists for is the eternal salvation of souls. That is her sole goal.
Throughout her existence, the Church has done no harm, however, some bad Catholics have. Pelosi is a prime example.
That's why I said, you don't know the Catholic Church. You have to separate the Church from her sinful members. Christ declared that His Church would be like a Net holding good and bad fish. But any corruption amongst her members is not becasue of the Church's teachings and doctrines, but against them and in spite of them. Despite the bad fish within the Net, the Net is quite good, even holy!
This is true only under certain conditions.
The Catholic Church's word, Scripture and Magisterium (Tradition), in matters of Faith and morals, is indeed the only word I accept as true and correct.
And for good reason.....because only the Catholic Church has received authority from Christ (God) to teach in His name and whom God has promised to peserve from error when the Pope and/or bishops teach in his/their official capacity (ex cathedra), doctrines concerning maters of Faith and morals.
Once you go outside the religious sphere of ex cathedra utterance of matters of faith and morals, you've gone beyond the scope of infallibility.
The authority of the CC isn't limited to infallible definitions only. For example, the 16 documents of the Vatican II Council were not pronounced ex cathedra and so therefore they are open for discussion.
True. Religion, being the principle of justice that binds man to God, embodies the obligation to worship God as He commands to be worshipped, if we know that He has commanded. Catholics, being assured of the Divine authenticity of their religion, submit their wills to the will of God, "by hearing the Church" that the Son of God established 21 centuries ago in 33AD.
Anything other than Catholic Christianity aka the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith, is a false religion, including Atheism, irreligion, heresy, or no religion at all.
The reason is there can be but One True, Infinite God, therefore there cannot be more than one true holy religion of God's making. The existence of all these other religions all claiming to be of god are, inferentially, a denial of the oneness of God Who is Truth Eternal and does not contradict Himself.
Not necessarily. In our discussion, I made my point on the Inquistion using Wiki and on the Dark Ages using my daughter's history book.
During the course of the Church's existence over 21 centuries, her Popes, religious, as well as the Church Doctors and Fathers and laity, have written a treasure chest of information, not only on the Faith, but on just about every topic there is. I think it wise to read their writings and then formulate my own ideas of things.
If I want information, advice, etc. on a certain subject, why go to Liberals (including Liberal Catholics), secular or atheistic Humanists? There is no wisdom coming out of their mouths or found in their writings. Especially so of late.
I don't watch TV or go to the movies that often. The last movie I went to see was "The Rite" with Anthony Hopkins. Don't know if it was "R" rated or not.
But yes, in general, "R" rated movies are offensive to me, whether in words or actions.
I try to keep myself away from occasions of sins and more times than not, "R" rated movies would put me in those situations.
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I note you wrote the word "in" here. Well, truth is there is one place in the Bible where Christ wrote with His finger in the sand. St.John 8:6. Interesting read; check it out sometime.
But no, God Himself never actually wrote the Bible or any books or literature.
Having said that, I believe the whole Bible is the written Word of God, that is they have as their principal Author, the Holy Ghost. Confusing? no, not really if one understands "inspiration". The Holy Ghost inspired the human authors of the Bible to write down in their own words in the manner and style of their day, what He wanted them to write down and He guided them to the extent that they wrote faithfully what they had been taught.
This working together of man and God in the writing of the Bible is called "inspiration". Inspiration covers not only matters of faith and morals, but extends as well to the facts of history as related, and to the whole Bible.
Now in Q.! I said how I know this is true and correct. I go to the Church and I "hear the Church".
So how do I know with 100% certainity Biblical inspiration defined? The infallible teaching of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
Pope Leo XIII, in his encyclical, Providentissimus Deus, explains how inspiration affected Biblical writers. "By supernatural power God so moved and impelled them to write. He was so present to them, that they first rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth the things which He ordered, and those only."
Also, Tradition confirms Biblical inspiration.
"Spokesperson"...ha,ha,ha...you're being politically correct, eh?
I'm not a spokesman for the Catholic Church any more than if you know something about cars, you would be a spokesman for the automotive industry.
Yes, I am a true believer in Christ, the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith. Catholicism is not just a collection of theological dogmas or propositions, but rather it is a way of life, a culture in which I have a coherent way of seeing the world and a way of discerning, judging what is right and what is wrong with it.
Catholicism is the way I get to know, love and serve Almighty God in this world so I can be with Him in the eternal next.
I don't know.
You can give the answer for yourself.
Ok already ... give me a week to gather my thoughts on all of this, hahaha. If I get too far behind I end up repeating myself and then the confusing really gets so. I am trying to write an article about my conceptions from childhood pertaining to The Catholic Church. OK, I'll start reading now...
The Sudan and all of North Africa had been Catholic for hundreds of years before Mohammed hit the Sharia law scene in 650AD.
The stories coming out of the Sudan, Senagal and Somalia, especially about the abuse of the children, are heartbreaking and chilling. There is no freedom there for these poor people.
If you, the pagan, and I, the Catholic were in the Sudan today, with the take over of Sharia law, neither one of us would be left to continue in our respective belief system. We'd be forced to submit to Islam, forced into servitude, cover ourselves from head to toe and bow down to Allah 5 times a day or else!
No doubt you've been following what has happened/is happening in Egypt and Libya. We now know who "the rebels" are. Militant Islamists. Sharia law is now being installed. Today on his show, Rush Limbaugh called Islam a "theological crime syndicate". Where is the wisdom of our so called leaders in ignoring what was sure to follow getting rid of Ghadaffi in the way that they did?
Response to Response # 205:
As usual you lost me with your jumbling around. If you could let me know what Catholic and European expansion around the world has to do with The Crusades, The Inquisitions and The Dark Ages this would be easier you know??? Lula, I don’t care about other expansions whatever that comprises of. My concern is the devastating influence The Catholic Church had in the new world and beyond throughout the Americas and Africa. So which is it; are we discussing The Crusades, The Inquisitions and The Dark Ages or are we discussing Catholic and European expansionism because I am not going to try following this silly back and forth nonsense any more.
You are so into yourself and your Church that common sense just bounces off you like … never mind. Take one Catholic and one Islamist and try having them discuss Catholicism, Islam or the Crusades, cowabunga! I hope they went through metal detectors for sure. I would surely like to get this on film, hehehe. I can be the ref because I think they are both nuts. Soooo … how do you think the conversation would develop? It doesn’t leave much for the imagination does it?
You have a book and somehow it tells you that The Catholic Church is the voice of your one God. Well the other guy has a book too and somehow it tells him that his one God is the only truth to be had. It just stands to reason that one or both have been lied to because both cannot be true. Have I lost you yet? Now I being the neutral pagan that I am have no problems believing the latter, but that is just me. Oh, I forgot to mention that their holy books also give them permission to conquer the planet, just food for thought. I can just see it ##4!&^ #%&H endlessly, hehehe!
As the story turns out, I did not go through a metal detector and I pull out my Kimber and ended the annoyance. I can think of little more annoying than sitting there while two idiots explain why they are both right and wrong (just depends on perspective). I have found most adherent Christians are frustrating at best if not chatting it up with another of the flock. Most will excuse themselves after only a minute or two of recruiting if you ask then nice. Others you have to just say goodbye and shut the door. Some are ever persistent. Guess where Catholics fall?
Lulu, you call everyone around you bigots when you guys take first place there. I don’t suspect you have had the ‘pleasure’ of telling a Catholic they are wrong … about anything? If you had, you would have no trouble redefining bigotry in a more worldly light. You cannot write or record history for the rest of us no matter how hard you try … Speaking of the Black Death, how was that manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church to fit prophesy and scripture to cull the people that can’t think for themselves. You forgot the Middle Eastern outbreak in 1347-1351. I count everyone and you concern yourselves with your sheeple. That is your way. So you admit 3,000 to 5,000 were murdered at the Churches pleasure … who said anything about millions ? Ok, off to wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition and what is the first sentence there … millions, hahaha. You do know what torture produces don’t you … confessions … but not the kind you would have us believe, geeze.
“The Inquisition, Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis (inquiry on heretical perversity), was the "fight against heretics" by several institutions within the justice-system of the Roman Catholic Church. It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy. Inquisition practices were used also on offences against canon law other than heresy.” Copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition ... First three sentences go figure.
You never did explain this: The 1578 handbook for inquisitors spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties: ... quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur. Translation from the Latin: ... for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit." (Same source) Yep, you guys are the cat's meow all right.
The world had around 450 million people and ended up 75 - 100 million less after the plague. You count the Christians and I count everyone even the Chi-Coms. If the statistics are right (hope so), then Christian death numbered less than ¼ of the guestimated deaths worldwide. You sure do live in a secluded environment. We would really be in trouble if you guys weren’t so merciful with your overabundance of piety, charity and love for your ‘fellow man’
Response to Response # 206:
Oh contraire madam, I know much more about your Church Doctrine and practices than I want. Why would anything the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen had to say be of concern to me??? Blessed Virgin Mary … Protestants … you must have me confused with someone who GAS besides, you always digress. So now I am supposed to just go after your sinful membership for you … because the people who gave them their marching orders are not responsible??? BTW, I stopped looking for proof of your one God for you just so you know.
Response to Response # 207:
Lula, I don’t care how lulu you want to act towards your beliefs and The Church you so admire. Why should I??? You guys have made your bed so stop bitching about having to sleep in it. Your mistake is trying (metaphorically) to get me into bed with you … and everyone else too. That is where the problems come in. I would like to think that you guys never expected resistance in your quest to dominate the Earth … but we both know that is not the case. The rest is just more Catholic gobbledygook.
Would I be wrong in guessing that your daughter goes to a Catholic school pray tell. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, you have mentioned it and you even produced some numbers that seem to come from there (I do remember some of those irritating [1] … [100] footnote markers) but I don’t remember anything substantive. Here I’ll spell it out for you: Your research is so Church/religiously biased as to be dismissed from consideration due to blatant hypocrisy and outright fabrications. I would caution you not to believe everything in an encyclopedia though as zealots always seem to infiltrate them to some degree. You have tried to tell me where I shouldn’t go for information to battle you and your Church with but … it might be simpler if you told me where I should go for it, hehehe … like the same places you look in no doubt … no thank you very much.
.
I'm ready to move on. You made your claim and I made mine in rebuttal.
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Exactly. The Bible versus the Qur'an. The religion of the Bible is Catholicism and the religion of the Qur'an is Islam and Sharia law.
No one with a sense of logic and a knowledge of history could accept Islam as a religion truly revealed by God. Mohammed founded Islam around 630 and blended Jewish, Christian and Arabic elements. His doctrines and the history of his religious movement cannot possibly claim a Divine origin in he light of critical analysis.
Absolutely agree.
No.
Interesting. Let's put that into a hypothetical. I'm Catholic and you are Muslim practicing Islam and Sharia law according to the Qur'an.
Let us suppose that we both live in a country that 95% of the population was Catholic --the other 5% Muslim. The Catholic Church declares that no one can be received into her fold against his will. The Catholic Church then, on her own principle, cannot compel the 5% to become Catholics if they don't want to do so. Therefore even in a Catholic state, they must be tolerated in the sense that they be allowed to worship God in their own mistaken way and according to their personal, if erroneous, conscience.
Now turn the scenario around --- we both live in a country that is 95% Muslim --the other 5% Catholic. Get my drift?
You have no idea how many times I have written to Catholic politicians like Pelosi after they have voted to promote abortion and called them what they are....hypocrites. Or to Catholic presidents of Catholic colleges, like Notre Dame, who invite pro-abort Obama to speak to the graduates! These people like to call themselves Catholic, but they do not walk the walk. They are CINO...Catholic in name only.These people are scandalous.
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Response to Response # 208, #209 and #210:
Have you looked at the world outside your sanctuary … and you are concerned that an R rated movie would make you occasion sin????????? This was not a guess on my part as you told me elsewhere, just a little truth checkup, sorry. You say the funniest things sometimes like … If one understands ‘inspiration’, exasperation is more apt … tradition confirms Biblical inspiration … oh this is silly. What in the world does tradition have to do with the truth??????
I will grant you leeway in reference to your Bible as long as you keep me (personally) out of it. I din't care what you do with the other 6,999,999,999 people that is between you and them. But the problem as I see it is when you make comments like this “The infallible teaching of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church”. Most human beings on this planet (like 6.999999 billion out of 7 billion) have never been made privy to it. You know this is a real sore point with one of your enemies, The Protestants … so are you claiming you have access to the documentation hidden from the world by The Catholic Church … or are you spreading hearsay from someone who heard it from someone else until someone wrote a synopsis for you peddle as the truth?
I know that you are supposed to be into the truth and all, so why doesn’t the Catholic Church open the archives to scholars (of all stripes) and other Christians … why that would be tantamount to some idiot running for President without a birth certificate. If there were any desire to be truthful beyond reproach well … show us the beef and quit trying to short sell the rest of us with plagiarized third hand information from important people, geeze.
From a cursory scan, I didn’t see much to complain about Pope Leo XIII although he is not on my favorites reading list. I have a little more interest in his predecessor Pope Pius IX. But here is an example of the hypocrisy of Catholic Dogma: Pope Pius IX lived long enough to witness the death of his old adversary, Victor Emmanuel II of Italy in January 1878. As soon as he learned about the seriousness of the situation of the king, he absolved him of all excommunications and other ecclesiastical punishments. Yea, justice for all and all for justice … that is The Catholic Church for sure. So what am I to think when I myself am doomed by excommunication alone and why … because my forced baptism as a child decrees it to be so, go figure? Hum, do they have to notify me about my being kicked out of your club or is it just automatic excommunication. Just curious is all, not looking for absolution especially from a bunch of bigots.
You know Lula, this was all rhetorical and only required a yes/no answer if any at all was needed, that would have sufficed because we both knew the answers already … that’s what makes it rhetorical, hahaha.
Just when I thought I was through for the night, oh well. Ok, move on I shall. It is my guess that a 2,000 year old feud over the dominion of the Earth is not going to go away in the even not-so-foreseeable future. I don’t care about Islam, that nonsense is between you guys and your god and them and their god. I don’t really have a big problem with Christianity (all things considered) as that is between you guys and I have no say. But I have many problems with The Roman Catholic Church as you may be aware of. I am quite comfortable with hypothesizing a confrontation between two idealistic know-it-alls on a fast track to murdering each other … Than I am with country sized complications including many millions of people. But in light of present worldwide religious complications … I get your point such as it is.
I don’t have much good to say about our politicians myself … but I think it is pretty naïve of you to expect political Catholics to toe the line. You know the Democrat Party is anti-church don’t you??? How could any real Catholic be a Democrat in the first place is beyond me especially considering your pet peeve, abortions and Planned Parenthood? I don’t have any more confidence in the Republican Party either as they remind me of Catholics who consider everything they do and say to be beyond reproach, go figure. Lula, I was talking about real Catholic Christians, not pretenders and ‘Sunday’ Christians. CINO now I like that …
""No one with a sense of logic and a knowledge of history could accept Islam as a religion truly revealed by God. Mohammed founded Islam around 630 and blended Jewish, Christian and Arabic elements"
So why should anyone believe Christianity is the religion truly revealed by god. Using logic and my knowledge of history I would have to conclude that maybe Hinduism or Buddism is the true religion since they came prior. Not Abrahamic religions of course but the mere fact that you write off every non abrahamic religion from the start of your posts and then proceed to back yourself up with a timeline is interesting. It is obvious to me why you choose to have no need to explain that however one thing I'd like to say is that the vast majority of religious folk I know from various abrahamic sects believe they are all talking about the same god but have different ways of practicing due to cultural factors. That seems to be one of the keys to religious tolerance to me. Personally I think anything that involves prophecy relates to snake oil, however I did go to church growing up and one thing I did learn there is that we are not perfect and do make mistakes in judgement and understanding sometimes. What I find interesting is how you keep trying to prove something with historical information (some correct and some incorrect)that can not be proven. The people I know who truly believe that their religion is more than just a control or teaching mechanism tend to say ultimately there is a "leap of faith". You on the other hand tend to try to explain that your sect of Christianity is the only true one by using some statements that are truly opposite of the some of the teachings of Christ. That amazes (however does not surprise) me.
Quoting BoobzTwo, reply 214Your mistake is trying (metaphorically) to get me into bed with you … and everyone else too. That is where the problems come in. I would like to think that you guys never expected resistance in your quest to dominate the Earth … but we both know that is not the case.
AGAIN, like I said, you don't really know or understand the Church or the Catholic Faith. It's never been about physical earthly domination. Rather it's always been about saving immortal souls...yes, including yours ...and entering the Heavenly City.
Catholics are to be "in the world, but not of the world". Catholic Christianity doesn't dominate the world that's for sure. You must be thrilled...for even Protestant America has given over to Secular and Atheistic Humanism (will Totalitarianism follow?) and Islam is making headway everywhere else.
But Yes, history shows we always expected resistance. From the very beginning of the world the lines were drawn. In Genesis, which gives us a synthesis of universal history, through a small, Semitic people to the coming of God-man which was the turning point of history, God told us there would be an epic battle between good and evil, life and death.
When the great power of God was brought to earth in the Person of Christ, Who gave us His Chruch and His teachings, what was the response?
It fell into 2 categories based on the object of their love. The Heavenly City, a society built up on the love of God and neighbor, or the earthly society built up on the love of self to the contempt of God.
Of this we have Christ's own words....
Christ said, He who is not with Him is against Him. He also said, If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me, before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but becasue you are not of the world, becasue I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Man has the power to choose: either by subordinating his will to the Divine order, or to the satisfaction of his own desires and making himself the center of the universe.
The struggle between these 2 societies constitutes the substance of history.
Yes. I see chaos, confusion, disorder, the evil of abortion, infanticide, parents killing their children, and vice versa, etc. etc.
People become evil when they depart from His holy will.
The Church has opened the Vatican Archives to the public....time and time again.
The Vatican Archives are open. The beef is there. You are a big fan of Google...check it out to your heart's content.
Yes, I expect Catholic pols to toe the line, but way too many of them don't and that's downright scandalous both to Catholics and non-Catholics. After all, you noticed and rightly so.
Oh ya. Known that for a long time.
On this point, we totally agree.
"real Catholic"! Ha, I like that.
Smoothseas, welcome aboard!!! I hope you enjoy yourself as much as I have … I would go one step further and say that anyone with a sense of logic and a working knowledge of history combined with science could not accept ANY religion as truly revealed by any God. As I explained, I don’t care that much about religions or the people who practice them … whatever floats your boat. What I do care about is the self-proclaimed superiority of the Roman Catholic Church. It was never my intention to slam ‘religion’ in general. The face that I do not believe in God shouldn’t matter to anyone besides me but that of course is not the reality I have faced here on JU.
In all honesty Lula, I do not make it a habit of following things I don’t believe in but I do keep up some. Genesis is interesting reading but I have to call your attention the laws of physics or is it your contention that these laws were not in existence from time ‘Zero’ you know, somewhere between 4.5 billion years to 7,000 years ago depending on one’s perspective. You already know I don’t put any stock in things that cannot be proved. Do you know how impossible it is to achieve even a potential gene pool from 50, 000 individuals let alone one, just a thought???
Anyway, you are starting to quote God again when in reality you are just reciting ‘scripture’ (hearsay). Your problem is that you do not have any confidence in the human being, period. If it is your opinion that we as a whole are incapable of anything besides bestiality and infanticide and other such anarchy … what makes you think you are any different from the rest of us as to making rational decisions? Are you not of the same gene pool as the rest of us incapable heathens?
Are you honestly naïve enough to think the Vatican (The Roman Catholic Church) has ever made all or even most of its archives available to the public, I think not. Are you simple enough to believe that your Church is incapable of errors considering that you told me that The Church was not responsible for their bad apples. Is it not logical to understand that if bad apples exist, they must exist at the top of the chain too? We are talking about people are we not? Thanks anyway but I do not have a soul to save … I have a heart and that is more than enough for me … a mere mortal.
I simply find it interesting watching how far some people will go to prove their moral superiority.
Not much different from a bunch of other religious sects that have self proclaimed prophets who have "received the true word of god".
JU is quite funny in that respect. A lot of what I see here in regards to religion and politics are people who resort to name calling or who throw out the race or religion card when dealing with subjects or queries for which they have no valid response.
What you don't understand Lulu is that it is not an either or situation. Subordinating yourself to your belief in the divine order might be the only way you can avoid becoming the center of your universe, but it certainly doesn't work that way for everyone. Some people don't need to believe in a god to realize that they are not the center of the universe or to realize the consequences that satisfying certain desires might have
Your perception of reality is very much biased Lulu. You live in a secular society, in a country whose constitution specifically mandates what many call a separation of church and state. You then look at instances of countries that do not have this separation so impose "religious law" on the people. So lets take a look at Vatican Law to see what a Catholic State might look like.
Art. 1 §1 declares that “The Supreme Pontiff, Sovereign of Vatican City State, has the fullness of legislative, executive and judicial powers
Not looking good from the start. Personally I choose to live in a republic, not a monarchy or dictatorship.
From there I can think of quite a few laws the pope might enact that would take away many of the rights I currently have.
So no I do not get your your drift because you don't even understand what your drift entails.
SMOOTHSEAS,
Thanks for joining the discussion.
Your opening question:
First, we should begin by agreeing on the definition of "religion truly revealed by God; of God's making". I stated the definition as:
Theologically, philosophically, or metaphysically speaking, what I mean by religion is an act of homage by which we render to God both privately as individuals and publicly as social beings, the honor, gratitude, worship and obedience due Him and in the way prescribed by Him. Religion, in the way prescribed by Him, indicates revealed religion by God Himself.
Throughout this discussion I have always asserted there is but one holy religion of God's making. The one holy religion "of God's making" narrows down the field quite a bit. It can't be Islam, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, or modern Judaism for they are all man-made. From that list, we can knock out Hinduism and Buddhism because they are pantheistic.
Modern Judaism was developed by Rabbis after 70AD, Mohammedanism (Islam) was developed in 650, the thousands of various sects that developed within Protestantism began in 1517. They all believe in One God yet they are four distinct religions with different doctrines and different belief systems. Reason tells us that since there is but One God, it is impossible to believe that God, Supreme Truth Himself, revealed such contrary doctrines, teachings and worship.
The one holy religion of God's making is Old Testament Hebraic Judaism full blossomed into New Testament Catholic Christianity.
Here's how I arrive at that and answer your opening question at the same time.
Man has always had a revealed religion taught by God. This religion falls into 4 categories or stages of development throughout the history of mankind.
One---the first stage of God's revealed religion is known as the religion of innocent man in that Adam and Eve were instructed immediately by God. God promised a Redeemer would come.
Two---after Adam's fall, Adam handed on to his children the truth about God and the duty of worshipping God as God had taught him. Thus Abel offered sacrifice. The traditions were handed on down through the ages through Adam's posterity, and as far as what is right and what is wrong, conscience dictates what is naturally right and this stage is called the Natural Law. However, God gave revelations to various individuals such as the Patriarchs, over and above the Natural Law, and this stage is often called the period of Patriarchial religion or the period of pre-Mosaic unwritten law. For example, by Patriarchs, Noah belonged to this stage.
Three---the third stage of God's revealed religion came with Moses whom God gave a cleared exposition of religious duties to be put in writing. This is known as the stage of the written law or that of the Mosaic religion....Hebraic Judaism.
All during this time period, God sent His prophets to tell the people of the coming Savior.
Four---Finally, God sent His own Son to give the more perfect law, the Christian religion which the Catholic Church practices and teaches n its fullness and will continue to do so until the end of the world when Christ comes again to judge mankind.
Catholic Christianity is Hebraic Judaism fulfilled. Christ said He came to fulfill the Old Covenant Law and the Prophets and He did. Hebraic Judaism was essentially a preparatory religion meant by its very nature to merge into its perfect fulfillment when Christ came. He gave us Christianity which Hebraic Judaism foreshadowed. In the New Testament, and in historical reality, Christ founded a Church and said the gates of Hell would not prevail against it and that He would be with it all the days until the end of the world. His Church and His religion therefore, must be still here and it must have been here all days since His time. That rules out all of the other religions named above. Only Catholic Christianity and the Church has existed and lasted in perpetuity since Christ in 33AD.
What I have just described is the complimentary relationship of Hebraic Judaism recorded in the OT to Christ's Church and His Holy religion Catholicism recorded in the NT.
The Jews as a distinctive people, as Israelites, stemmed from a convert, a Hebrew named Abraham who rejected the gods his father worshipped for the One, true God.
Abramam was the first champion of monotheism, that is of the unity of God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of the universe and all that's in it. It was through the 12 sons of Jacob, grandson of Abraham who God changed his name to Israel, that the Israelites came into being. Hebraic Judaism, is the first organic, priestly, sacrificial, divinely revealed religion stemmed from Moses and Aaron, who were born over 4 centuries after the days of Abraham and over 3 centuries after Jacob (Israel).
With the coming of the Messias, Jesus the Christ, (whom Moses had commanded to be heard Deut. 18:15-19), came the New Covenant which the prophet Jeremias said would supersede the Jewish covenant 31:31, when the promises in the Old Testament would be fulfilled.
The Messias instituted a new priesthood, and a new, unbloody Sacrifice, in place of the Aaronic priesthood and its Mosaic sacrifices. The Judaism of the OT fulfilled its divine mission; it ceased to function as the religion of God over 21 centuries ago, in 70AD, when it ceased to have a priesthood, altar and sacrifices.
Catholicism is man-made as well, in particular the Institution of the Catholic Church. Although I think all religions are man made for the sake of debate I will assume the teachings of Christ are the words of God. The Scriptures (Word of God) are wide open for interpretation. That is obvious as soon as one opens any version of the Bible. My interpretation is man made, Martin Luther's is man made, yours is man made and The Pope's is man made. The Roman Catholic church's self-proclaimed authority is nowhere written in the scriptures. It is a man made interpretation. And I only call it an interpretation for the sake of debate for in reality I personally think it is a manipulation not simply interpretation. Do you know the timeline for that interpretation? The reason for that interpretation? Or is it just another leap of faith you take?
Lula, I appreciate all your hard work, but all you are doing is alluding to Biblical Scripture and then telling me that it must be so??? Personally, I think the NT has more of a plagiaristic relationship to the OT … not a complimentary one. Throwaway religions, you guys are too much. I believe even semiliterate people are more than capable of deciding for themselves what God’s own words mean, sort of like … He … were actually doing the talking instead of you guys doing it for Him. If there is a one God as you prescribe and most Christians adore the same one God … there can only be one problem here and you already know it is true. From the very beginning after hundreds of years of revisions of course, the Church announced to the world that what the world wants doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference. And you guys have been at war ever since, go figure.
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