I don´t know if this posting is a good idea, but I just felt I had to say this.
I really do understand how some people may feel disappointed about Elemental not being the game they had envisioned.It happens when you really anticipated something.I was disappointed with Master of Orion 3, I´m disappointed with there being no Wizardry 9 or Might & Magic 11.
But being disappointed is one thing.The quantity of rantings about how bad EWoM was and how slim the chances were that the next patch or patches would make it a better game, that´s something that irritated me for some months now.And now some threads with such rantings were locked.Normally I would be upset about such "show of force" from the forum's moderation.But honestly - in this case I can understand it.
I don´t know Brad or any of the crew, I don´t even know much about them, but as far as I can tell chances are that they are human beings.Now imagine you had made a really big mistake at work. It would bother you not only because you blew it, but because you had really cared for that project.That would probably be the moment were you would just love to have people who supported you.And say, your family supported you, your friends, even the guys at work.But then random people on the streets would begin to attack you.You would walk home after work and someone would come up and tell you how much you sucked and that he didn´t think that you would be able to ever make up for the mistake you had made.At first you perhaps would be puzzled but would want to defend yourself while on the other hand listen and make clear that you wanted to try to make up.But these people would just keep on coming. Every day, for months and months."You ruined it for me!""How could you not see it?!""You´re still not good enough!""Are you worth my trust?"
There just is a time when you have to stop, when you have to let go.Even if you had spent hundrets of dollars, that wouldn´t give you the right to pay back the devs in gripe and spite.There are several other things though that you can do, and I guess they have already been said.1. Accept the loss and openmindedly anticipate what the expansions could bring.2. Accept the loss and walk away.3. Don´t accept the loss and walk away furiously. Or at least keep your anger for yourself. Or, even better, channel it into useful stuff like suggestions!
Honestly, being disappointed is one thing, using Stardocks benevolence to flood the forum with rantings like "When will the game be fun?", "Will the game ever be fun?", "I don´t think the game will ever be fun!", "This game took the fun away from me!", "I had imagined something else?!", "Why, Stardock, why?!?", etc. pp. is something completely different.To stay with Monty Python - it´s like the Spanish Inquisition, just that it´s not funny. It´s "running the gauntlet" for the developers.And what worth does it have to write how much you disliked that game? It has been made clear many many times that EWoM for many people is not as much fun as they would want it to be.If you wanna say something like "I hope AI gets improved in the next patch." or "I don´t like how armies are handled, I would propose a different approach.", do it, that´s cool.But if you got nothing more to say than that you don´t like the game - just keep it for yourself. Please.
Now I have my issues with EWoM too. I would love to communicate my ideas to the devs and to have the things implemented the way that I would think they should be done. But then I read in the forums and find so many people having totally different priorities and ideas, sometimes diametrically opposed to what I would want to have.And I´m thinking "Crap, how in the world should the developers be able to see that my vision alone would be the true and only one?". No, honestly, it becomes clear even to me that it´s nigh impossible for the devs to make the game the community wants because there is no such one game.This means that they are practically on their own, and perhaps that´s not that bad, because it means that they will develop a game that makes sense to them, that they made the plan of.They still have the forum to pick up suggestions, to filter out priorities that are widespread in the community.And for that I would like the developers to like to visit their forums and not to be put off by the 93th angry ranting.I would really like to let the developers work and see what they will deliver; if you don´t feel that way, perhaps getting a refund and focusing on another game would be best for you, me, the developers, and most probably quite some of those people that are still here with Elemental.
The problem here is that the new threads about it are being made by new people, who just bought the game. So I don't know who your rant is aimed at. Those people aren't going to read it, since they're not here yet. (At least, the ones that aren't about Gamestop buying Impuse are... because those ones are a totally different can of worms.)
Precisely. people are coming here for the first time and saying the exact same thing over and over. It's not like there's a "small vocal minority" who keep making new accounts and making new threads trashing Elemental. And to top it off, the forces that be, seem to have settled on the idea that it's not as bad as everyone says. All the problems of the game might be old hat to many of us, but there are still people discovering it and thinking... wtf. Now I've been very careful about what I say and how I say it because I am trying to be sensitive to the "human side" of things, but that doesn't change anything besides the fact I'm not making threads and posting in them about the fundamental problems with WOM anymore. Nothing has changed from the first time I tried it, except maybe I have a little less hope now. And yes, moving on is probably a good idea.
For what it's worth, no matter how much I dislike something, I will not sit here and attack Brad's character, or put up with it and some of the vulgarity and spastic ranting I've seen. But people expressing their honest and civil opinion, though it might be negative, well there's not a lot you can do about that.
The way I see it, they made a shoddy release. They apologized, and went as far as to say that FE and the next game will be free to the early players. Everyone understands that this means Elemental did not suddenly become a much better game.
Now they want to move on. The situation is played out. EWoM is now largely as they envisioned it, ie nearing how it should have been released. THEN players come in and start giving comments about how bad the game is. These people are not commenting on the release product, they are commenting on the patched game. And if you don't like how EWoM is today, you probably never will. Not every game is made for every player.
So I think it's a false assumption that the people commenting negatively about the state of the game today have as valid a critique of the game as we did when it was released. Their product today is a very different thing from what we played at, or before, the 0-day release patch.
I have not been on this forums for several weeks. I came back and made a post expressing pessimism about next patch, only as a counter for very optimistic post above me about next patch, and I just reacted on it because I really tired to see these unsubstantiated claims. The thread was locked, and Frogboy says that Elemental is not my cup of tea and I should look somewhere else (which is strange, considering that my favorite genre is 4X TBS, and my second favorite is fantasy based RPG). But whatever. I do not hold any grudge on him. He was polite enough.
Anyway. What people fail to realize is that the reason why we post this kind of posts is BECAUSE WE CARE. I DO care about Stardock - they are one of the best company in terms of caring about games and about customers, in terms of being honest with us. And I, personally, do not want them to have illusions about the state of their current game, because this is one of the worst things that can happen if they think (by locking all bad threads with criticism and pushing such people away) that their game is great and it does not need improvement.
This is why I will try this game again and again, and post my impressions, especially if they are not good. It is because I CARE!
@MxM111: Ok, in this case I apologize to you.Thing is... I REALLY am no fanboy, I never liked fandom as in "fanatical devotion".But when I look into this forum (Elemental - General), I see about 2/3 of the topics are some kind of rant about the failures of Elemental.We all do see this failures, and I am pretty damn sure that the developers in special do see them.In my opinion we have long past reached the point at where such rants could be seen as constructive, and with Frogboy locking such threads now, I get the feeling that he has reached the point where he is pissed, or better, where he decided to do something he normally wouldn´t do (as far as I judge him), to protect the morale of his crew.Cause that it does - it weakens the morale of the developers to look into the forums and see yet another "You blew it!" thread.
You and I, be both seem to be of the opinion that Stardock deserves our honest opinion, but because we care we should also stop and think about how constructive giving this opinion is right now.I mean, let's at least wait for the next patch to see how the game evolves, let´s give them a chance.Especially when we see how much the game could be improved - doesn´t that also mean that we know it will be a lot of work to get to the game that we wanted in the first place?
To the others:
As I see it, there are quite some people coming back to the game, being pissed by how it still doesn´t meet their claims, and then going to the forums and expressing how the game sucked since the first version.
And now I could really get emotional.I´ve seen so many studios going down the drain.I´ve waited so long for such great games to be continued, waited for others to be fixed, games that showed a glimmer of ingenuity but were flawed some way.Other games I´ve watched being dumbed down in the last years, when I had hoped for them to, at last!, be evolved to the next stage, the next level, to be made better at what they were already good at, to be expanded and not shrunk down.
Anybody still know Sirtech?They shut down somewhere around 2001.No Wizardry 9, no Jagged Alliance 3.New World Computing anyone? Might & Magic 11 perhaps?Origin? Wing Commander, Privateer, Ultima?Hey, how about this one - Master of Magic 2?Or Master of Orion 3 reloaded, or Master of Orion 4?And how do people feel about Civ 5 or Supreme Commander 2?Supreme Commander, based off Total Annihilation, but not as good as this indirect predecessor.SupCom 2 could have been what TA 2 should have been, but instead it was "mainstreamlined".
The computer games industry sucks nowadays, and I am ok with waiting some months if this results in a game with potential having the chance to truly develop this potential.I don´t need nor want another failed project, leaving a game that I see this glimmer of ingenuity in, and only that glimmer, nothing more.I waited twelve years for Wizardry 8, only to see it having been already published on a magazines DVD, and to read that the developing company has shut down and their will never be a successor to this highking of classical RPGs.I can wait another year or two for Elemental to evolve into the game that I love to play all the time.
Sure I can´t keep people from complaining.But equally I have the right to support the developers. A thing that I very rarely do... no, that I have never done before.But if there are half a dozen topics every page concerning how the game sucked, I do believe that it is ok to once in a while post a topic about how such criticism sucked.
The thing is, I have not seen even a single post with "you, supporters, should stop posting here", and locking their threads, you see what I mean?
But sure, I support Stardock too, especially, where it counts - I bought every Stardock related game (gal civs, all their expansions, sins, Demiogod, this game), and I was even buying games in Impulce over any other distribution channel, if I could. And I understand that it is difficult to see when your creation is criticized by majority of the players, including loyal players.
It is just at this point, I wonder, if it is even smart for Stardock to spend resources on trying to improve the dead horse (I am a bit exaggerating here) and instead focus everything on expansion, which will be free anyway for most of the elemental players. Please Stardock, prove me wrong with patch 1.3!
They usually sound a little more like, "Stop being such a fanboy". As for thread-locking, if it's the one you're talking about, that topic has been discussed ad nauseam and everyone is getting tired of repeating the same old arguments. If someone doesn't find the game fun and has already given up on what the updates might bring, then the game really isn't for them and they should try something else. What's the point in griping and bringing everyone else down?
There's nothing wrong with a little criticism but it's one thing to point out the areas which you feel are lacking (or ideas) and another entirely to simply bash the devs and game outright after so much has been given, apologised for and promised. And I do feel threads which are blatant attacks with little more than window-dressing "critiques" fall into the bashing crowd.
You're not the only one thinking that. Since so many people are getting FE free anyway, I'm not sure why they're still directing attention at WoM at all at this point.
FE is the make or break release for me.
I've largely been quiet on this forum, but I'll tell you why I'm angry. It isn't because WoM is disappointing or anything. I mean, it is disappointing, but that's fine - that's the chance you take with any game.
No. What makes me angry is that despite its flaws, I actually enjoy the game...BUT...the "suicidal sovereign" bug is, to me, game-breaking (how can it not be game-breaking to anyone?) and months have passed without it being fixed. Furthermore, I have asked - politely - on this very forum for Stardock to comment on the bug, and have been ignored. This one bug is all that's preventing me from playing and, yes, enjoying the game. But Stardock declined to so much as acknowledge its existence, let alone let me know it was being fixed.
Huw - please read the OP of this Frogboy post outlining plans for 1.3: https://forums.elementalgame.com/406430
"Death of a sovereign will cause the rest of the faction to go over to the faction with the best dynasty connections"
I've tested the strategic AI pretty heavily and consistently (along with bugs) the past few months. I know Brad and crew are both reading our posts and taking action - but that action has to be prioritized. How do I know this? Because arguments I've made along with others, supported by facts, have made it into the game. In this round of beta testing they did work on improving the suicidal tendencies and it's documented above what changes are planned if a player snipes a sovereign - the Empire/Kingdom won't just go poof. So they've improved sovereigns being stupid and have plans to remedy Empires/Kingdoms disappearing like the lost city of Atlantis.
They've been solely focused on OOM and bugs for weeks now. We're close. In fact, I think Brad made a key breakthrough today on OOM. Please see this thread, replies #16-24: https://forums.elementalgame.com/404664
Hang in there.
[Edit] AI sovereign improvements made it into 1.19d: https://forums.elementalgame.com/405696
Honestly - I think because Brad's gotten where he is today by following through on commitments. Just a gut feel.
May be we are reading different posts (and I admit I do not visit often this board) but I do not see bashing of developers here on these board, and if there is, it is very isolated cases. Unless you think that statements like "it is boring game" or "it is not what was envisioned in the beginning" constitutes "bushing" of developers.
AlLanMandragoran - many thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. While I'm not convinced, I want you to know that it's appreciated.
The improvement that sees a leaderless faction go over to the faction with the best dynasty connections doesn't address the initial concern that sovereigns basically commit suicide. Despite the best intentions of the improvement, the fact remains that the game will change, sometimes (I presume) drastically, because the AI did something so laughably brainless.
As for the threads you linked, lines such as "AI is more careful with their sovereign" sound great in theory, but I won't be convinced until I see it in action. I have to confess that I don't play beta patches, so I haven't been following those threads at all. I am somewhat mollified by your assurances that you've seen your feedback incorporated into the game. Basically I guess I'm playing a wait-and-see, as you suggest. There's more I could say but despite my posts I do genuinely feel for Brad and Stardock; this is clearly not what they thought would happen post-release.
Thanks again.
Cool deal. I certainly have a different perspective because I've been playtesting all the beta patches. I don't even remember what 1.1 was like. At any rate if you wait until 1.2 you'll see the changes I'm talking about.
"It is a boring game" and "it is not what was envisioned in the beginning" are not only two completely different statements (the latter not even close to a blatant attack) but cannot be argued out of context.
Speaking from actual experience, I can say that there are worse. And I'm definitely not going to touch the subject of who has more "isolated" incidents than the other. I can claim that fanboy attacks are isolated too and it wouldn't make a difference.
As I have understood it, Brad just thinks that people have the right to get a game that is fun for them, regardless of having the expansions or not.He even covered this explicitly, stating something like that he had a bad feeling whenever he saw GalCiv 2 (?) somewhere on sale, because he thought the game to be incomplete. Or something along the lines.This pretty much is what I wrote about games with the glimmer of ingenuity.He just doesn´t want to give up on EWoM.And I do think that´s fair, and the work going into patching EWoM is not wasted at all.I would guess that quite some of the work will at least we good practice for implementations in FE, if it can´t even be used directly for FE.AI would be such a topic; I´m pretty sure that nearly all work on AI will be directly used for improving FEs AI.
Sure, it could be a great effort to shape EWoM into the game once envisioned, and I don´t think that´s what is planned now.Else it would make no sense to work on standalone expansions, if work on EWoM would continue to a point where it surpassed it´s own expansions.I do expect EWoM to be heaved upon a level where players would say "This is an ok game."; nothing brilliant, but ok to play more than a few times.
I just hope v1.3 eventually gets here. The game has been on hold for me since release, and v1.3 is when I'll try it again.
Then it is even stranger when he is saying "may be it is not your cup of tea" to those who say that the game is boring in present state. Does he consider the game to be quite good and fun and no need to fix in present state? If yes, then we did not complain enough, if no, then I do not understand his response.
Then it is even stranger when he is saying "may be it is not your cup of tea" to those who say that the game is boring in present state.
Link an example please?
https://forums.elementalgame.com/407047/get;2915638
https://forums.elementalgame.com/407143/get;2916051
"Elemental JUST isn't a fun game"
Seems like he made his decision on Elemental in general, updates or no. And that's quite the leap from MxM111's, "the game is boring in its present state."
I'd also suggest that Owl move on. Clearly he's not having fun.
@MxM111: Right, Lujan said it.If someone doesn´t even get a glimpse of the game possibly being fun in the future, if someone couldn´t even imagine it becoming fun to play... what else could you say to this guy? Something like "Perhaps wait some millenia, surely a wonder will happen some time."?Apart from that, Brad seemed to act quite emotionally, so I wouldn´t try to see a higher logical reason for his locking of the threads or his "Then perhaps better move on."...
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