Double post, but oh well.
I'd also like to second this notion- but I'll also note that any "lack" of advancement in the field of producing brand-new never-been-seen-before technologies is probably down to the fact that SW has pretty much figured all physics/science out.
Which would make them more advanced than the Federation.
@ Whiskey>
Thanks for the response. Wanted to quote you on each point, but it would be too much work
Regarding visual error and inconsistencies: check Ex Astris Scientia, they have lot of articles dedicated to this stuff. Most of these inconsistencies are caused by differences between physical and CGI model, when both were used on the show. For example i know there were more versions of Defiant, although i cant define the differences. Out of top of my head, as its one of my fav models, there were 2 versions of Jem Hadar Battlecruiser (the one of size of Galaxy class, not the biggest one)...originally it was built as low detail CGI model, based on the sketches of John Eaves. The typical trait of this version were wings in the V-shape, when you looked at the ship from the front. Then, for the episode Call to Arms, they decided to build the full-fledged physical model. This one had U-shaped wings. Finally, another CGI company built new CGI model, based on this physical model, which was used in abundance for the big battle in the Sacrifice of Angels episode.
The whole point is, although obviously different, it was meant to be the same kind of ship all the time.
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/dominion-battlecruiser.htm
BTW if you, despite your recent attitude toward Trek, are interested in checking some sketches or shots of models from various Treks, i can recommend you The Eavesdropping with Johnny or Doug Drexlers blog, there is lot of interesting info and pics.
Finally, SW designs are indeed iconic, i dont doubt that, but so are Star Trek´s. ST ships might look more fragile and less functional (still do not get the saucer on the Federation ships, or the hollow in the Romulan Warbird, LOL), but at the same time i find them more original and varied (obviously as there are more factions than in SW). This is ofc matter of opinion and i respect yours.
I've kinda-sorta snipped most what you said WRT this point, though I was under the initial impression that you meant SW ship models.
As it is- yeah, they did have a few different models for each ship, which ended up being somewhat inconsistent.
I do still like some of Trek- but there's been a bit of a falling out. DS9? I enjoyed quite a bit; I expect that I'd love to watch TOS- but TNG I'm very very iffy on, because Rodenberry had a lot more freedom with it. Which meant his humanist/atheist views were very present, and I disagree a great deal with said views.
In-universe, the explanations have to do with the ST warp drives. Out of universe, well, they designs make no sense. I mean, a standalone saucer could work. But a saucer with that silly neck/pylon/nacelle thing.......well, that makes no sense.
I think this is due primarily to the fact that SW is a truly galactic-spanning civilization; because of the speed of hyperdrive, a ship type can very easily become widely distributed and used. And if it works, well, then you don't need to mess around with it. As it stands, there's still a great number of factions/species in SW, probably more than ST.
The difference is that probably 80-90% appear only in the EU, primarily the novels or perhaps the comics, and not the movies.
Oh, certainly in this case. This particular exchange I've actually found to be more enjoyable than debating Redneck.
I am glad you enjoy talking to me
BTW did not know, that the saucer shape is connected to the warp thing, care to elaborate more? Could google it, but cant be arsed right now.
Anyway, the saucer thing is laughable, i work as architect and really i cant even imagine to propose saucer-like building. I know spaceship is not a building and there are types of buildings like stadiums etc.. where the circular shape makes sense, but really? Utter waste of space, spaceship or house, if you ask me. Professional deformation i suppose
Still visually i find it very "attractive", all the Enterprises bar the Abrams one were brilliant models IMHO, although there are people, who tend to appreciate only original one (and the "1701-A" version, which is classic as well), but i always found Galaxy class to be "pretty", as it looks so majestic and noble. The Sovereign on other hand is sleek and nimble, feels more like a warship, but i think it kind of fits the slightly darker theme of the later Trek seasons...
Anyway its interesting, that while in architecture i prefer the minimalistic, boxy, functional designs, which are by majority of people (non-architects) consider boring, bland and "cold", with these starships models i actually enjoy various curvaceous and sleek designs...the same with cars in real life...
IIRC, it's something to do with the warp field geometry used to exceed lightspeed; the design of the saucer, pylons, and nacelles all play a role in it. Incidentally, this is why 90% of all Trek ship models have the warp nacelles exposed and in line-of-sight of each other, the warp field stuff.
That and Rodenberry deemed it a requirement that all warp nacelles had to have LOS to another nacelle, and could only be mounted in pairs.
I don't think a saucer makes much sense as a spacecraft shape either, TBH. But it does make more sense than the weirdness of most Trek ships. Note that a sphere is a highly optimal spacecraft form; it's able to make course changes relatively easily, and is also fairly simple to "spin up" for internal gravity.
Out of all the Enterprises, I personally liked the Sovereign the best.......though I think the Defiant beats it out any day.
I rather like boxy/functional designs, because they convey a sense of function over form. That said......I also like sleekened designs, because you can either explain them as form=function, form follows function, or it's somewhat akin to the old prow statues of the Age of Sail.
If you are capable of interstellar travel, artificial gravity probably isn't going to be done by spinning the ship. If you can tear a hole in space, bend the space time continuum, any of the various theories for breaking the generational barrier on speed, it's not even marginally complicated to create a gravity field at whim. Star Destroyers on the other hand are practical designs, large surface area with a small target profile when facing the enemy.
Are you sure? AFAIK, having a 1G gravity field still requires a planetoid of mass similar/identical to that of Earth's. That said, "capable of interstellar travel" is very nebulous; I could be slowboating around for all you know- which makes you comment totally useless and irrelevant.
It's a bit iffy on that; canonically, Star Destroyers engage in broadside duels against similar-weight opponents. While in theory several SD classes are capable of tilting the prow downward slightly to allow all the broadside guns to superfire forward, there's no canonical case for it IIRC.
While I admit I don't really have a movie source for this, such combat maneuvers have been demonstrated in sources like EaW, which is heavily combat oriented, and by other ships in other mediums (such as the unique Escort Cruiser in Rogue Squadron, which could fire front, left, and right).
Yeah.... it does kind of look like a hockey puck with Trek ship gubbinz and worky bitz attached.
But it still beats out the Galaxy-class, IMO. I mean, seriously, giant FRAGILE swan neck attaching the saucer and "stardrive" sections? Do they intend it to break up at the meagerest shot?
Back early! Whiskey, you've failed to prove that your turbolaser shots are that powerful through any on screen reference. Sorry. Star Wars numbers are NOT what you claim them to be. End of story.
I haven't failed anything; the proof is right there in the canonical ICS books. The ICS books are derived from the movies, by an actual PhD astrophysicist.
I don't know about you, but I'm certain that Curtis Saxton knows what he's talking about.
And, to boot, how is saying
the end of the debate? Making a blanket statement with no proof to back it up does not a debate win.
First, grammar check. I don't know if you meant the book was derived from the movies, or if it wasn't based on the movies. Either way, it doesn't make sense, which leads to one thing: a fan boy writing a fan book for other Star Wars fans. Really good, unbiased source of information there guy. That argument fails to launch, and here's why:
Since we are allowing tech books, I'll use Star Trek tech books. That means that Star Trek is STILL more powerful than Star Wars, since I've SHOWN that torpedoes are STILL more powerful than your turbolasers. Imagine that. I've let you reference a source, acknowledged it, AND taken it into consideration without demanding more proof in a pathetic attempt to discredit the source. The only difference is, MY numbers actually ARE backed up on screen, while yours are not. You do not see missed shots in Episode 3 razing entire blocks on Coruscant. You don't see single shots, like the one that actually hit an unarmored area of a Venator in Episode 3, wiping out half the ship as your numbers would suggest. In fact, from what I've seen, the main damage caused by turbolasers on screen has been thermal, and considering that a Galaxy class ship can sit in the corona of a star and not melt when it has up metaphasic shields, Star Wars cannot TOUCH a Federation ship save with a Death Star, and that big, lumbering thing is VERY easy to kill. Pump a few tricobalts into it and it's gone.
Whiskey, you are quite clearly a fanboy who has let his perception of things cloud his judgement so much that he fails to recognize he might be wrong. You continue to think that a sci fi series that relies on trade to get goods to shipyards to build ships by hand is more advanced than a sci fi series that can make said materials on site, out of nothing but energy, and use holographic workers to build the ships. (Just one example out of many)
Sadly, you're not alone. Fortunately, that means if I want to rejoin this argument later on, it will still be going. In all likelihood, there will be another fanboy to tear down on another day.
Have fun on deluding yourself, I've gotten Fallout: New Vegas and I'm going to go enjoy it.
WOW
Calm down nerd.
I don't see any proof in your argument. Also, your post points huge glowing fingers that you are a fanboy likewise...
I don't like SW or ST and even I think that you are being rather silly.
It's a typo; I meant to say "by". It's been corrected.
The figures from the book are derived from the movies. By someone with the expertise to do so, as in, he has the actual scientific knowledge to derive energy requirements from events such as the numerous asteroids destroyed by stray shots in the AoTC asteroid chase, the destruction of Alderaan, and various other incidents involving inert objects being struck by SW weapons.
The ICS books have the LucasBooks logo on the spine; LucasBooks is part of Lucasfilm LTD, which makes the ICS books canon for Star Wars. As a result, it is not a fan book written by a fanboy; it is a piece of official Lucasfilm LTD literature, written by a scientifically qualified expert.
Not how it works, buddy. We aren't "allowing tech books"; we're using canon sources only. It just so happens that SW canon happens to include all things EU, ICS, and similar- while Trek canon is the movies, the shows.... and that's it.
Actual mathematic equations? Laid out in a clear, concise manner instead of buried in a block of text that is eye-bleedingly difficult to read?
Until then, no go buddy.
Except for the problem that the consensus after more than ten years of SWvsST debating is that ST bites the dust- you're making extraordinary claims that require extraordinary proof. Furthermore, my referenced source is a canonical one. Unlike the non-canon Trek tech manuals, which I have used for comparative purposes only, and not actual evidence.
Proof?
This wouldn't have happened on-screen, primarily because it is irrelevant to the space battle. Furthermore, the fleet is battling between the TWO planetary shields of Coruscant, IIRC. So any stray shots going planetside would hit the shield- being dissipated harmlessly.
SW materials science and shielding equipment is easily up to the task of taking such shots; that you suggest otherwise is sheer stupidity, and ludicrously ONE-SIDED. You maintain that photon torpedoes are hundreds of gigatons in yield, yet you do not also maintain that such firepower would instantly obliterate a single Trek ship with a lone torpedo!
That's a double-standard, and dishonest debating.
It's a Directed Energy Weapon. NO DUH.
Evidence that metaphasic shields are standard issue?
Evidence that they can block the concentrated plasma bursts of turbolaser fire?
Evidence that the shields are simply not dissipating the energy in another direction?
Evidence that the thermal capacitance is actually comparable to continuous barrages of weapons fire (photorps detonate in gamma ray showers- which are primarily thermal in damage against inert targets, like armor plate)?
Energy calcs for the amount of energy absorbed and dissipated over time?*
Energy calcs that would suggest that it can handle higher peak loads of comparable total energies?*
*What I mean here, is do you have energy calculations for the wattage that the Enterprise-D absorbed during its stay in the corona, a figure for how long it was there (without which the wattage cannot be derived), a cross-section of the shield bubble, and the altitude the Ent-D maintained in the corona?
Further, do you have evidence that the higher peak (one-time) load of a turbolaser barrage would be easily absorbed? From where I stand, it's far more likely that metaphasic shields can handle such energies over extended durations- but dump the same amount into it within a handful of seconds, and, well, you're going to be doing debris recovery.
I'm not sure how you drew this conclusion, seeing as how the Death Star is orders of magnitude more powerful than anything in Trek, since it used a single shot to blow up a planet.
The first one was blown up because a Jedi, who has supernatural powers, made a one-in-a-trillion shot that got two proton torpedoes down into the power core of DS1.
How is that very easy to kill, when any other person who tried to take that shot would have failed? AND DID! In ANH, another X-Wing pilot attempts to take the shot, but the proton torpedoes hit the edges of the vent! Only Luke could have made the shot, because he was the only Jedi pilot available to the Alliance.
DS2 was destroyed because, once again, fighter-sized craft attacked the power core- and they would have failed had DS2 been completed!
Tricobalt torpedo yields? No?
Well then you'll please retract this statement, as otherwise you have no evidence to back up this claim.
Nope. Far smarter guys than me have debated this over the course of ten whole years, and even the Trekkies have conceded that the Empire squishes the Federation. Look up asvs.org- you'll see the proof.
Well, first off, provide evidence that replicators are energy-to-matter conversion devices. Secondly, provide evidence that holographic workers are used to construct all Federation starships. Third, provide evidence that holographic workers are indeed cheaper than biological labor.
Finally, provide evidence that that's a bad thing. Trade is good- and if replicators truly were energy-to-matter conversion, then why isn't the Federation a post-scarcity utopia? Why do they still require supplies on their ships? Why do they need to have replicator rations on the USS Voyager during ST:VOY?
I have no idea what you're saying here.
Probably not. I'll likely ask the mods to lock it. Mostly because it's gone on long enough. NOT because I "lost"- I didn't, BTW. TBH, the only reason I started debating you was because I had a lot of fun simply spamming you with "proof proof proof". It was quite hilarious.
No idea what you're rambling about here.
Deluding myself? REALLY? The fact that I've put together a very intelligent premise, and that you have not, in fact, provided numbers (or at least recognizable numbers), indicates that you're simply mad that I won't be convinced of your flawed arguments.
Aside from the innate insult this is, it's quite crude, and very, very poor etiquette for a debater.
So you're the only one who's allowed to enjoy their games now, eh? Well, I find that quite insulting.
I feel I should point out that I like Warhammer 40,000 even better than both SW and ST- the flavor of the setting is, IMO, far superior to the galaxy-shattering events of SW and the boundless (and IMO, ridiculous) optimism of Trek.
But meh, I bet Redneck would claim that Trek would whip the Culture, Xeelee, and Time Lords at the same time.
I can't say that I align myself to any Sci Fi thing, but WH 40K is pretty awesome.
From a distant perspective, I would say that I like the Tau Empire, even though they are "Space goats with Voldemort faces" to quote Oatesy. (It was him, right?)
Warhammer 40,000 is interesting, though I don't know much about it beyond playing with some Dawn of War demos, but I like what I have seen. I still prefer Star Wars over Warhammer 40,000 though.
I also think Redneck would claim that too. Based on Redneck's arguments, he is definitely the definition of a fanboy.
Can't say I've done anything with 40K, myself. Never really been interested in it.
It was indeed Oat that said that- but I dislike the Tau because of their pure unbridled arrogance; they think an ~100ly sphere is capable of challenging the entirety of the galaxy-spanning Imperium.
The sheer amount of fail in that idea is palpable.
The setting is huge. LITERALLY. It started with a tabletop game in the 80s, and has since grown into its own huge IP. Currently, it encompasses:
the titular Warhammer 40,000 tabletop wargame,the Epic Armageddon/40,000, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, and Inquisitor specialty games,the Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, and Deathwatch pen&paper RPGs,a 3D animation film,7 RTS games, a third-person shooter,and in excess of probably around two hundred novels and short stories.*
If you want to know more, then I suggest you head over to the Black Library website here. Pick up a couple of books; I recommend the Ultramarines Omnibus or perhaps Hammer of the Emperor; I've also heard that the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies (conveniently collected as a single omnibus tome) are also great 40K-starters.
For 40K video games, the Dawn of War series is where it's at; I recommend in particular the first DoW, and the Dark Crusade expansion. Winter Assault is a little lackluster compared to the latter. Soulstorm was a bit of a huge trainwreck. For DoWII, the first is critical; for multiplayer, Chaos Rising and Retribution are a must (note that all (DoWII, CR, and Retri) are required to play all races in multiplayer).
The new Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 3rd-person shooter is looking especially delicious.
*Given that I own 12 volumes, 3 of which contain three novels each (totally out to, if I did my math right, eighteen 40K books), plus the four short stories also included, and not counting the 40K e-book I got, and that's not even a significant amount of 40K literature- AFAIK, at least.
I think that 40K, while an extremely interesting milieu, is simply not for everyone. It's the same thing with Trek or SW; some people like it, some don't. Some are fanboys (or fangirls) about it.
EDIT: fix'd link, added footnote.
I've really only been mildly interested in one universe and that was WH40k. Otherwise I always stick to my own writing.
I must say Redneck has some good points, there are others far more meriting the title "fanboy" here.
Just a few things ive noticed: in star trek just one shot from a disruptor can cause a persons entire body to vaporate, thats alot more power than any empire hand held energy weapon has as far as i know.
The medical science of the federation seems more advanced than the empires: they can mend broken bones and remove cuts by just moving a beam from a tiny handheld device over it. Even altering ones entire cellular structure and phycical performance takes tops a few hours if not minutes.
Transphasic Torpedos: just one could vaporice an entire borg cube, which normally took an insane amount of normal weaponfire from standard weapons. This weapon was brought from the future ofc, which star trek visits quite often. ugh.
Just one quantum torpoedo attached to some material i dont remember but it was quite common with the federation could cloud an entire planet making it unhibitable for 50 years.
20 cardassian/romulan ships (not battlecruisers) launched one barrage of energy weapons at a planet and stated that the next salvo would turn it into glass. That is what 30 seconds? Those weapons would have to be very powerful considering that those ships are alot smaller than any empire ships.
The empire has nothing even coming close to the "2 to beam up" technology of the star trek races.
Star trek has replicators that can make oh abouth anything. In one episode they create a huge minefield of homing mines all equipped with replicators that when other mines are destroyed immediatly create new ones, making destroying them with normal means impossibly, oh did i forget to say that these mines were also cloaked and not possibly to detect, even with the normal means of detecting cloaked ships because they had no real energi output to speak of. These replicators can also make weapons with ease.
And dont get me started on some of the beeings that inhabit the star trek universe, let me see the Q and the prophets to name two. Q is stated to have actually cared abouth the humans in star trek and a star fleet captain was even made godmother to hes son -fancy huh. Now Q if he had taken an interest could have annihilated the ENTIRE empire, after all it just exists in one reality of the many millions that exist.. not that big a deal. Then we have the prophets that simply removed 2800 dominion ships because another starfleet captain asked them to do it. I am sure they might be willing to lend a hand with the empire, id say if 2800 ISDs just vanished the empire would think twice abouth come knocking. You star wars people really dont understand, please watch the entirety of all star trek episodes and say that you think theyre technology is on par with the empire, it is not. I am not saying its fair because to be honest star trek is pretty gung ho crazy when it comes to pulling crazy stunts, in one episode they may introduce a super cannon that gets installed on the enteprise and can blow through any shield and material and in the next they simply happen to forget it. or some other crazy shit that could unravel the entire universe if they were actually consistent abouth it.
You are probably right in that if we take only the standard issue stuff that we see in most of the series the empire would steamroll the federation, but as i said before: unless you want to play mortal combat you have to take on the whole damm star trek universe that could conceivably come to the federations help. Sure most may not, but if only 1 of those super powerful beeings that pop up in every 2 star trek episode deigns to help the EMPIRE COULD STICK THEIR HEAD BETWEEN THEIR LEGS AND SEE THEIR ASS TAKE OFF.
Oh noes, that is unfair, that wont happen you may say, but it may.. and if it do, the empire is fucked. Simple as that. It is not Federation vs Empire because that is totally unrealistic, what it is is: the empire invades the alpha quadrant and picks out the federation for their first target. diplomatically, skirmishy, total war whatever comes from there may go in either direction.
Now stop with your god damm stupid rubbish.
And we have here another fanboy, attempting to prove something.
ANNNNDDD back to W40K
I think that the Imperium could seriously give the Federation a good run for its money, primarily being so mind-numbingly enormous.
Necron with all 4 C'Tan I believe are waaay > Borg. Heck, maybe even just their current 2.
And Whiskey, I like the Tau's design, not that they continue attack the Imperium despite its futility.
Like yourself? I'll admit, I've thrown my fair share of insults- but in the case of Redneck, I have had the decorum to not swear at him.
Unlike yourself addressing me.
Disruptors and phasers leave no vapor remnant- and if they actually did vaporize a person, then any time we see that happen in an enclosed space, the firer's life should also be claimed. An expanding cloud of superheated vapor is very lethal.
That said- a phaser's magic nadion particles pretty much make phasers a magic chain reaction gun. Not nearly as much energy is contained as you would have us believe.
I'd say that they're equally advanced; if you can show me Trek fixing someone who had wounds extremely similar or identical to the injuries sustained by Vader on Mustafar, then maybe I'll buy the idea that Trek med science is superior. Until then, I hold that they're equally advanced, just in different areas and through different methodologies.
Which is easily explained not by superior yield but by the fact that the Borg had never encountered transphasic torpedoes before; as a result, they had not had the opportunity to adapt, as they had with conventional photon and quantum torpedoes.
Overall, insufficient evidence.
Not exactly hard. You could do it on earth by simply seeding the whole place with cobalt or by throwing many tonnes of dust into the atmosphere, choking every living thing on the planet. And said effects usually last for far longer.
Visual evidence is contradictory; it also gives no mention of how much of the surface would be turned to glass, given that most of the planet's surface in the initial salvo was engulfed in a fairly large firestorm- primarily from foliage ignition, AFAIK/IIRC.
How would this help in a war? Transporters are known to be generally reliable- except when dealing with transporter jammers and exotic/high-density materials. The latter are very common in Imperial starship hull armors and structures. Not to mention the uncertainty of transporters working through Imperial shields, which are leagues away from Federation designs.
Replicators require replicator stock; Star Wars has Duplicators which have an identical function. Further, Trek sensor's inability to detect cloaked mines has no bearing on Wars sensors attempting the same.
Generally it's held that no superbeings will interfere; further, Q is interested in humanity; NOT the Federation. The UFP is the governing body of most of the human species- until the Empire comes a-knocking, in which it's found out that the Empire's human population probably outmatches that of the entire Alpha Quadrant. Such are the realities of a galaxy-covering civilization.
Also note that Q is not omnipotent; he's well known to be a liar, braggart, and trickster.
Evidence that the Q are capable of annihilating entire realities?
Sisko was of some significant, tangible value to the Prophets- and we have no evidence on just what happened to the Dominion fleet. For all we know, it could have been sent back in time, sent forward in time, or transported across the galaxy.
I'll further note that it is highly unlikely that any other captain would be capable of pulling off such a feat; Sisko had a very tangible relationship with the Prophets- no other Starfleet captain, to date, has.
Not really. The Empire was producing around 3 per day in the period between EP3 and EP4- that's if it's a twenty-year interval between the two movies. And firstly, that's a low-end value; secondly that means that it will take about 2.5 years to replace all 2,800.
Not too bad. Especially irrelevant in that the Empire has 25,000 ISDs, and would also not have any use for the wormhole with the strategic advantage conferred by hyperdrive. As such, the Prophets would be incapable of such an action- they only managed it because the Dominion fleet had to go through the wormhole, which the Prophets had built and controlled.
There are areas where the Empire and the Federation are equal, and there are areas in which each is superior. Transporters are a useful technology, one which the Empire does not have- but the Empire has the advantage of far superior economic capability, and strategic mobility. Medical technology, IMO, is about equal- the Empire has some advantages, and so does the Federation.
This is because Trek has traditionally relied on a standalone episode style, wherein each episode is only loosely connected to previous and subsequent ones. Trek also has a history of inconsistency and schizo-tech in that regard.
Note that "any shield and material" should be appended with "in Star Trek". On the surface, there's no way to tell how it would interact with SW materials and shielding, as SW and ST shields and materials science are radically different- and in the case of materials science, SW is clearly superior.
Size Matters in the case of building enormous structures, such as the Executor-class or the Death Stars; being that such objects are mobile, they must resist far more force than a comparably-sized space station.
Firstly, swearing does not help state your point- and no, we don't have to take the entirety of the Star Trek universe. The Borg aren't going to help the Federation. The Romulans won't help the Federation. The Vidiians, the Baku, the Krenim, they won't help the Federation.
For every power that you say would help the Feds, I can probably find one that wouldn't. Also keep in mind that, in the end, it's unlikely to help the Feds. The Federation is a small portion of the Alpha Quadrant- the Empire covers an entire galaxy.
The disparity in scale is simply too great for the Federation to overcome; the sheer amount of resources and manpower that the Empire can throw at the problem is mindbogglingly huge!
Most of said superbeings don't actually help, and occasionally compound the problem. They're also never heard from again, and were not contacted by the Federation- they found the Fed ship and decided to have a laugh. Rather hard for the Feds to call on them for help when said superbeings found the Fed ship, and not the other way around.
No, it's not "simple as that". Provide tangible proof and evidence that the Empire is doomed if all these species and powers come to the Federation's aid- which they very well might not.
It also is unfair, because the discussion was never "Empire vs Star Trek galaxy", it was always "Empire vs Federation". If necessary, then that means treating the scenario as if each polity no longer has any neighbors or internal problems, and is totally isolated except against each other.
Obviously it's not nearly as interesting if that's the case. But I'll say that that is our scenario if I have to, to get the point across that the discussion is the Empire taking on the Federation (or vice versa), and nothing else.
Do you understand why the Empire would pick the Feds as the primary target of the Alpha Quadrant?
It's because the Federation is the largest and most powerful polity of the Alpha Quadrant. If it falls, then what hope do the lesser powers of the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire have? Said powers navies are either not as powerful (Klingons) or not as numerous (Romulans) as the Federation's.
You're not making sense here. Clarify.
Swearing at me and calling my reasoned, logical arguments rubbish will not get your point across.
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